Hello all, My first spec house is nearing completion and it’s been a fairly smooth experience – until we poured the concrete drive and front porch and steps. Before any cement was poured we discussed creating a border effect with compression breaks. We also discussed where the water, sewer , and underground electric lines would go. I had a clear idea of the layout I wanted but at the same time was candid about being a new builder and asked for recommendations and suggestions as to the best way to do the job. He poured the porch, steps and a landing first. Next day the drive went in – it connects to the landing. He ran the border along the edge of the drive but it dead-ends at the landing. Design wise not so good. but the big shock came when I realized a downspout will need to come down onto the landing and should drain under the concrete but no drain tile was installed. We will have to cut the concrete, install a drain, and patch. I’m interested in opinions from more seasoned builders on how the responsibility should be shared. tmenees
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Listeners write in about haunted pipes and building-science tomes, and they ask questions about roof venting and roof leaks.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
Sounds to me like the problem would be paid for by the General Contractor, you in this case. No drawings with spec's for the concrete guy. You realized that the downspout goes there a little to late IMHO.
Not bad for down payment on tuition into general contracting school.
Jeremy
The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Are you a Homeowner acting as a builder? If so, why weren't you there to oversee the job so that this didn't happen? Where are the Architectural plans and subs signed contracts with specification of work to be performed?
Joe Carola
Edited 3/16/2007 8:43 pm ET by Framer
You say you were clear about this but I find your writing less than clear. Runon overlapping thoughts without breaks that make it hard to separate diverse thoughts - and you leave a few thoughts out.
So I would start by assuming that you were likewise less than cleaar with him.
And more important - nowhere do you say that you provided him with a scale drawing or that you marked trhings out, or that you were theere to oversee the project.
I don't see any need for the "responsibility" to be shared.
Based on your description, it was your responsibility and you realized it too late, but it is still yours.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
You say you were clear about this but I find your writing less than clear. Run on overlapping thoughts without breaks that make it hard to separate diverse thoughts - and you leave a few thoughts out.
So I would start by assuming that you were likewise less than clear with him.
And more important - nowhere do you say that you provided him with a scale drawing or that you marked things out, or that you were there to oversee the project.
I don't see any need for the "responsibility" to be shared. Based on your description, it was your responsibility and you realized it too late, but it is still yours.
Glad I could help.I'm here to help.
Can we be best friends?!
you have to be pizzing someone off somewhere...lol
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I think that's the intention.
Hey, don't look at me, I'm mentally retireded.
Well ya know Luka...she's laughin' her way back from the fridge all the all the way back to the puter don't you?
http://WWW.CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Yikes! Diet soda, right?
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
I have only seen two of your posts so far, and both of them are confusing: you copy and paste the entire othr posting and highlight some words in red. Is that supposed to be some code? Do you think youare contributing to the discussion? Seems very sophomoric to me."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
She says she's here to help. Another forty thousand posts or so and she oughta be all caught up!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
> you copy and paste the entire other posting and highlight some words in red. Is that supposed to be some code?"She's" correcting spelling. Correctly spelled words are in red. That's the service provided. Thus "her" name is Spellchecker, although the great irony is that "her" name should be spelled "spell-checker" or "spell checker". And of course, "her" hook is the picture posted in "her" profile, which hints at "her" being a lithe young thaaaang. This being the internet and a builder's forum, of course we know the odds of that being the case are somewhere between slim and none. Strikes me as the sort of thing some past mischief-makers would do. Don't know why people get their jollies from those sorts of games, but some apparently do.
Don't burst the bubble... this place needs pithy humor, to go along with the stories of crooked backhoe operators and scheming homeowners.
She is so obsessed with spell checking but has done some grammar work too - then forgets to use quotation marks. Flunk her out of writing class - no originality.I wonder if Sphere found her way back in
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Remember......drum roll please...Fast Young Roberta?
hey.. FYR is commng to the US of A ..
i expect him on thursday... stay tunedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So I aint the only one that thought things just didnt seem kosher . . .Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
i think she's just trying to help an olde man
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey that is my neighbor . I think?
Your neighbor? Where do you live? That's my wife!!! ;-)
Dad?! ;-)
That's Spellchecker?
I gotta check out CL-Portland, see y'all later.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
You'reprettygoodatcleaninguptextandyourpicinyourprofileislikeoneofthose"afterpicsintheNutrisystemdietsbutIreaqllyappreciateyourtakingthetimetohelpPiffin'causehistextisoftensloppyandhardtodecipher.
:-)
URrightineedhelpPleasehelpmesaidtheflyinthewebimcaught
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Damme, specljacker, i'm glad your ahere, auic it takes me foures to vlaoetu my pooasat abecause of tnme really bat topoiuenf skills,
do ntou thauiidn toit i cound enameil my roughs to youa nsds thid eytou clean thjewoi iep and touist thenm ain mey name?
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
"Damme, specljacker, i'm glad your ahere, auic it takes me foures to vlaoetu my pooasat abecause of tnme really bat topoiuenf skills,do ntou thauiidn toit i cound enameil my roughs to youa nsds thid eytou clean thjewoi iep and touist thenm ain mey name?"Sam, that was a little hard to read.So I ran it through spell check."Dame, specl jacker, I'm glad your adhere, auk it takes me fours to valuate my potash abbacies of tame really bat topoiuenf skills,do not thauiidn #### I coined enamel my roughs to you nods hid eight clean thj ewoi imp and tourist them Ian my name?".
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Now you see what I have to go through with every post I write. No wonder nobody understands me.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
You say you were clear about this but I find your writing less than clear. Run on overlapping thoughts without breaks that make it hard to separate diverse thoughts - and you leave a few thoughts out.
So I would start by assuming that you were likewise less than clear with him.
And more important - nowhere do you say that you provided him with a scale drawing or that you marked things out, or that you were there to oversee the project.
If this is what you like to do, then you are in the right place....lots of construction workers...the kind of guys that sat staring out the widow in elementry school dreaming of getting home and playing in the dirt with toy trucks.
Hmmmm...maybe I'll try:
There are run on overlapping thoughts without breaks, making it hard to separate diverse thoughts. You also leave out a few thoughts.
You are responsible.
Make it easier on yourself and bore the pipe across under the concrete instead of cutting the concrete then patching it.
Based on what you've said, I'd also say that it is your responsibility. There isn't really any blame to be layed. It was an honest mistake. You can't remember everything. Would you be able to tunnel under the walkway? It might be worth the effort.
Dave
We also discussed where the water, sewer , and underground electric lines would go.
I emphasized the words "would go" because I wouldn't dream of pouring any concrete over anywhere I planned to bury something later. In fact, whenever I'm involved in a new driveway or new sidewalks, I'll put down a couple of pieces of capped PVC - and/or plastic electrical conduit - for future use. Even if you don't plan to use it, someone will want to someday and they'll thank you profusely!!
In your situation, I think it's on you. You jumped the gun and now you gotta bite the bullet.
Not even close...it's on you. After you asked for ideas, it was up to you to make a scaled drawing of what you wanted, date it and provide enough copies for everyone who needed them. If you want to be real official you could ask the subs to sign a memo to you, saying that they'd received the dated drawing. Then you should make sure that each sub understands how to interpret what's on the drawing.
You should always check forms before concrete is poured. Being there for the pour isn't a bad idea either. And having an extra able body on a big pour never hurts either. Bring your boots and gloves.
I hope this doesn't sound unfriendly but I've been on the receiving end of what you call "sharing" too many times in my working life. As you came here asking for advice, I'll assume you only need an adjustment in perspective, not a complete overhaul.
Peter
Thanks for all the input - Hudson Valley Carpenter and all the rest. Seems unanimous that the responsibility is on me. That's what I figured but thought I'd get a few dozen second opinions - didn't want to be too easy. The main thing now is, what's the best solution. Boring sounds interesting (is that an oxymoron), but only because cutting and patching will be such a pain and the results seem questionable. In order to bore under the slab I will have to go straight down through about 4" of exposed aggregate because the slab butts against the house where the downspout comes down. Then I'll have to bore horizontally about 7' through gravel fill. I'm not even familiar with the equipment that would require. If it still sounds do-able, I'd like to learn how to approach it. tmenees
From your description, it sounds like it's time to change the downspout location. Is it possible to pull off the gutters and re-install them, pitched in the opposite direction so you can put the downspout on the other end of the run?
I did have another idea but the guy who poured the slab discouraged it. But the more I think about cutting or boring, the better it sounds. Maybe some of you can shed some light. I'll have to describe the layout. The slab in question is an extension of the driveway. It goes around the corner of the garage and runs about 4' to steps going up to the front door. The downspout needs to cross the walk between the garage corner and the first step. If this sidewalk section (from the garage corner to the first step) were raised to be level with the first step, it could accommodate the drain. Seems that I could drill some holes in the existing slab, stick rebar in to keep the added step stationary, frame it up, put my drain pipe in and pour more concrete. tmenees
I've built a lot of forms but I've never seen or tried what you're proposing. I'd imagine that it's been done because I've seen similar methods used to tie horizontal pours together, using plain steel rods not rebar. But on most jobs if someone screws up, the jack hammers come out while the concrete is still green and they start over.
Going under still makes more sense to me
Edited 3/19/2007 12:32 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
A picture is worth a thousand descriptions...=0)
Hey, don't look at me, I'm mentally retireded.
I'm not getting into whose fault it was, but I agree with Luka and another poster who said bore the tunnel for the pipe under the slab. You may even be able to use the trick with a hose and letting the water bore the hole as you push the hose through.
http://www.poolandgarden.com/earth-auger.html
I used one of these to bore a hole under a 3' wide, fifty year old sidewalk. Drove it with a common 3/8" drill, working it from both sides of the walk. Then a high pressure garden hose nozzle opened the hole to a better size.
Edited 3/17/2007 11:06 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Yeah, that'd beat the heck out of breaking the slab!
<<
<<Yeah, that'd beat the heck out of breaking the slab!>>
I recall using a sledge and an old piece of iron pipe to drive through the middle, under the sidewalk, where the auger couldn't reach.
Edited 3/18/2007 3:19 am ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
You have to be very careful using a hose to "bore" a hole under concrete. The hole will usually be quite a bit bigger than the pipe you put in it and that will leave an unsupported area under the slab. Sidewalks are probably ok, but I've seen driveways crack along a line where this has been done.
Sometimes, you can run the pipe then ram sand or dirt into the bore to replace the support but it will never be as strong as the original (compacted) subgrade.
If you do decide to bore it out you could over excavate the size of the hole and use flow-able fill to than incase the pipe and "re-shore" the sidewalk. That's what we always use to replace concrete or dirt when it's necessary to undermine a floor slab, or building footing.
I've run my downspout pipes by using 4" sch 80 PVC with a 4" connector protecting the end connector and having someone hold a 2x6 across the end while I hit it a few times with a sledge.
Then I run the garden hose up the length of pipe and wash out the accumulated tailings.l
Then we line up the 2by and pound her another 6 - 12 inches. Wash out again. Pound again. Wash again. Etc. The connector can be replaced if necessary and another piece of pipe can be added for length. The pipe stays in place and serves as the drain line.
I've run these under a two car garage pad - on a desired angle, both inclining and to the side.
Pete -
That sounds like quite a chore, but it would certainly be better than just blasting a hole with a hose like I've usually seen it done. - lol
That Schedule 80 would certainly make a difference.
Congratulations on getting this far.
Realize that verbal means little to nothing when it comes to liability.
These days, with multiple subs and all to often too little care or responsibility in the quality of work performed, drawings and the writtem word trump the "whaddaya think" and "oh ya youbetcha that sounds good lets do that" jobsite agreement.
Realize that even when we describe what's in our mind, the recipient may be picturing something different. Or a detail amy simply be forgotten or omitted.
It's tough to misinterpret, or forget, a detail in a drawing. And drawings don't need to be CAD. Hand-drawn chicken scratchings on a sheet of paper will suffice. A copy for them, a copy for you, with both copies initialed.
So, the responsibility for the "mistake" is yours, and the responsibility to change it to the way you want it is yours.
As others have mentioned, bore underneath instead of cutting the new slab. Careful you don't go too large with the hole or you'll get too much unsupported 'crete and the walk could eventually crack.
Is there any possibility to reroute the downspout creatively across the sidewalk overhead and down on the opposite side of walk, or change the fall direction of the troth to another spout?