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I have a somewhat related question. The structural enginer and architect on our project have recommended attaching a 2- 2″x 10″ ledger to the masonry block using 5/8″ Hilti sleeve anchors at 16″ on center. While a number of 2″ x 10″ structural supports will attach to these ledgers, the deck and porch will primarily be supported by separate footings which range in dimension from 12″ to 24″.
The contractor for our project is concerned that the Hilti sleeve anchors will rip out or that the ledger will not stay properly in place.
b Has anyone had experience (positive or negative) with Hiti sleeve anchors? Any recommendations here?
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Hey Andrew d -- I appreciate your good spirit and tact. Most guys get all defensive under fire.
I use a ledger for several reasons. Structurally joist hangers would work just fine through the plywood into the rim joist. But the sheathing would still have to be protected from the weather between joists and from nail penetrations at each hanger which could be tricky. If one can see under the deck, the ledger visually completes the structure, otherwise you would have to piece in siding between each joist or? Also on many small low decks I build the framing on the ground much faster like a stud wall (using galvanized spiral shanked 16p in my Duofast nailer) and lift it into position.
I do alot of restoration work and always appreciate good design, weather resistance and overkill in general. I run felt paper or the Ice & Water Shield type adhesive backed self-sealing membrane between the sheathing and the ledger. Then another layer of the flexible membrane down from behind the siding out at least 2 inches to cover the ledger and the joist joint. Then I often put in the aluminum L flashing behind the siding and lapped out on top of the first deck board against the house to keep that channel from filling with leaves etc. And to get back to the original question, I still find that much cheaper than an extra inside row of 4' footings, posts, and beam!
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Yes, I did it and would do it again (quite soon actually) pretty much as you describe -- still pro-ledger -- except i haven't added the metal flashing yet. I only put the membrane between the rim joist and the ledger where it would be protected from UV. I'll add some aluminum flashing when I figure out how I want the house side of the deck -- the house is aluminum sided -- to look. Maybe a piece of Trex as a sort of toekick and rain diverter. It is bug heaven around here. I am scratching my head now how to finish around a concrete stair that is separated from the rim joist by just some old felt paper. The bugs have shown an interest so it must be done soon, but I have no easy access.
As for a freestanding deck, someone poured a 4 inch thick concrete walkway years ago which does a lot to guide rainwater away from the house; I saw no reason to punch holes in it. Engineering-wise I see the appeal of a freestanding deck but nowadays I'm just trying to do things faster rather than perfect. Someday maybe I'll be fast AND perfect!
On a sheltered area, such as a well-protected porch, with a nice rim joist, to heck with the ledger. Less work and better construction too I'd think. At least that's how i did that recently, too.
*There may be some confusion, at least in my mind as I re-read the whole thread, between the house framing rim joist and the deck rim joist. Is it safe to assume that those using a ledger (or any) house connection are bolting into the house rim joist? Is it safe to assume that a ledger means a third piece of framing that runs parallel to both rims; or is it the deck rim with another name; or if there's a ledger attached to the house does it substitute for the deck rim and carry the deck joist hangers directly? Or is the suggestion that the house rim is the only member needed in that orientation and that the deck joist hangers be attached directly to that? In any case, it seems simplest and strongest to me to use a deck rim joist, space it from the house with cleats or washers on the bolts through the house rim joist and avoid the separate ledger. The bolt penetrations are going to be there ledger or not, flashing or not, and need to be sealed as well as possible of course. That said, you still need to decide if spacing alone leaves you comfortable about water-proofing the house or if you want some sort of flashing detail.... along the entire deck width or at least over the cleats and/or bolts.So going back to the original question, there may really be three issues: 1) attach to house vs. free standing, 2) if attached to house, ledger vs two rim joists, 3) in any case, how to waterproof the house (spaced or un-spaced, flashing, membrane, building paper, combined, existing sheathing un-touched or flashing let in, ???).
*In our community, attached decks were taxed as a home improvement and needed a building permit, whereas a free-standing deck was not. Needless to say, I built our deck on its own piers, and the decking didn't quite touch the house.Jay
*Interesting. Locally it's the permanent foundation or piers that trigger taxes. So if you put your garden shed or deck on a foundation or piers it's taxable, if it sits on grade or non-permanent blocks it's like lawn furniture. Trouble is the inspector wants to see piers down to frost line. I have seen sun shelters "hooked" (literally) to the house so as to be technically removable and thus non-taxable (never mind you'd need a crane to remove it!). I suppose a deck could be engineered similarly.
*For a while England tried a "window tax," windows being quite expensive and all back then. The collector simply counted the number of windows on the house. You can imagine what happened to home design.
*This so called ledger board is totally unnecessary. It is simply an invention by Gene Ledger, to sell more copies of his worthless book to all you idiots on this forum. Take my advice and pay no attention to him.
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It just goes against the grain to cut into perfectly good siding and sheathing in order to install a ledger board for a house deck, yet this seems to be standard procedure for every deck I see on TV or in magazines. Since the rest of the deck is to be supported by six inch piers, four feet deep, why must the house end be attached to the house? Can't the whole thing stand on its own? I've read that the most common deck failure is at the ledger, so why take the house down with it? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
*I have built 2 free standing decks up against houses where I could not get behind the wall to bolt it up. One was on the back of an attached garage. The other was on a house that had a slab poured on top of a low block foundation.Probably the main reason attached decks are popular is that they are cheaper to build. A free standing deck requires more posts, more diagional bracing and more labor.In my opinion (no stats to back this up) I think that the main reason attached decks fail at the ledger band is because people don't flash and seal them correctly. By the way, I would not cut out the sheathing behind the ledger band unless it was non structural - ie foam, Gyplap or Celotex. In my opinion, OSB, plywood and "one by" can stay.
*I agree 100% with Matt , although if it were a second story deck you may want to attach it to your house or live with a maze of diagonal bracing . Chuck
*One other thing to add - I wouldn't hesitate to build an attached deck if it is possible and assuming no unusual circumstances.
*I agree that it is better to build a free standing deck when possible. If you want to stiffin it a bit you can always use a few blocks between the house and the rim joist of the deck and flash those. Even when attatching to the house, I don't see a need for a ledger unless the surface you're attatching to is deteriorated or weak (like maybe a 1x rim joist, or blocking between joists) - jb
*I have a somewhat related question. The structural enginer and architect on our project have recommended attaching a 2- 2"x 10" ledger to the masonry block using 5/8" Hilti sleeve anchors at 16" on center. While a number of 2" x 10" structural supports will attach to these ledgers, the deck and porch will primarily be supported by separate footings which range in dimension from 12" to 24".The contractor for our project is concerned that the Hilti sleeve anchors will rip out or that the ledger will not stay properly in place. b Has anyone had experience (positive or negative) with Hiti sleeve anchors? Any recommendations here?
*The wise heads above are saying exactly what I've heard, too. There doesn't appear to be any advantage to the ledger except convenience. And done wrong, they're destructive or dangerous. You have to dig 4' deep? Ouch, I won't complain so much.... I suppose there the risk that some dolt digging with an auger next to the foundation will mess up the waterproofing.How high can an ATTACHED deck be before requiring diagonal bracing? I'm thinking of a deck I was on recently supported by a cluster of 10' 6x6's on a steep hillside. I could feel it move ever so slightly but nauseatingly while people moved around on it...
*In our area, any attached deck 4' or more is required to lateral (diagonal) bracing secured with 5/8" gal. bolts/nuts/washers. All unattached (free standing) decks require lateral bracing. The alternative to lateral bracing is to imbed deck posts into concrete something like 36", which may be no big deal if you already have 42" deep footers, except that it takes a lot of concrete to fill one of those deep holes. On the other hand, in my area, we only need to be 12" deep, so 36" deep footers are pretty much unheard of, and besides, I *loath* the practice of imbedding wooden posts in concrete.Anyway, attached decks are more than a matter of convenience - let's take an average 12 x 18' deck - add 3 additional footers, 3 additional posts, and diagonal bracing, let's see - labor & materials; guesstimate: $400. More than a matter of convenience!IMO, attached decks are fine if the builder knows what he/she is doing.
*Tony - I am uncomfortable about anchoring to block or brick unless it is into a bond beam course. I don't trust that the mortor holding the block or brick will resist lateral forces. - jb
*Most of the reasons have been covered above. I'll echo a few. If you have to dig below frost line (by code deeper that 3' here in southern New England and deeper elsewhere) in rocky ground that second row of posts means a LOT more work to dig. And more concrete to mix. And lateral bracing. So the house connection is easier and cheaper.Our new deck was installed after the old one had to be removed because of a poorly installed ledger. No drainage or flashing = rotted siding, sills, rim joist and some joist ends, wall plates, studs and flooring. With that all repaired I was not confident about hanging the deck weight from the patched wall framing and constructed the deck free standing on two rows of posts; believe me, it's a LOT more work. But I also tied it to the house for lateral stability while avoiding ugly diagonal bracing.One point that seems missed is you need that 2x member that runs parallel to the house to hang your joists on no matter what. You can call it a ledger if its let into the house or a rim joist if it's not but it's still got to be there, so deck structure and material cost are pretty much a wash on that particular piece of lumber. Attachment is the issue. You can avoid the second row of free standing posts and attach the "ledger" outside the siding and spaced from it for drainage with cleats or washers on the bolts. Even if you space it, however, you may need to consider flashing which may require some siding work. It may seem like belt and suspenders, but leaves and other debris tend to clog those spaces and unless your careful about keeping them clean, flashing is a good additional line of defense against decay.
*One more reason NOT to install a ledger board: If there are unstable soils a separate deck allows it to move independent of the house. This keeps the deck more level instead of the typical ramp up or down. Yes it is more time, energy and material; i.e. more expense but I think the result is worth it for the long term result.By the way I didn't realize there were so many folks who supported separate decks. Or, maybe they all congregated here.
*This IS interesting. The last time this came up, there was a lot of support for using a ledger.http://www.taunton.com:8090/WebX?128@@.ee7282bThe argument was made that one couldn't put the deck footer in non-virgin soil close to the house. No one challenged this. Now three months later, this point goes unmade.Confusing.Rich Beckman
*Rich:You can hit virgin soil next to the house if you dig down to the bottom of the house footers. Not that I like detached decks, but on the 2 detached decks I built, the posts up next to the house were basically supported by new footers that were partially sitting on the house footers - very solid and OKed by the building inspector.FredB:"if there are unstable soils"...You build on unstable soil? I guess you gotta do what you gotta do. Glad I don't have to mess with that!
*OK, even if you hang the joists on the house, what does the ledger board do for you? Why can't you nail your hangers to the rim joist, through the sheating? - jb
*This was suggested earlier for a protected porch. 3 reasons against:(1) Rim joists often now are plywood;(2) Very hard to flash or inspect -- and a pain to repair if there is a failure;(3) You can run the decking right on top of the ledger instead of installing blocking.
*OK, I was talklin' about a 2x rim joist, not plywood or 1x, or blocking, or a TJI. Now, how would this be any harder to flash than a ledger board nailed on the wall? Inspect for what? You can tell when you drive nails how good the lumber is. Besides, when you nail or lag bolt, or however you attatch the ledger, what do you think you're fastening to then? What kind of failure? What do you need blocking for? If this has all been written, just point me to the post would you Andrew? This is bullshit. - jb
*Bullshit? My! I just tossed out the first few things that crossed my mind. It was a lone voice that suggested attaching the joists to the rim joist in that old post and I don't think it was talked about any more than that.It's a good question, there are lots of useless practices like doubling rough sills out there. But the ledger lets you cover the rim joist completely with sheathing or flashing -- except for the bolt penetrations -- and it won't let water ride up the bottoms of the joists to the house. Insecurity about my flashing skills and being able to nail the decking to the ledger are the main reasons I would use one.
*We must be talkin' different techniques. Why can't you sheat over the rim, and attatch your hangers through the sheating, into the rim, just like you would to the ledger? How does the ledger stop water from running back against the house? Why would you need to nail the first deck board between the joists? There is definately something one or both of us is misunderstanding here. You are talkin' about an L shaped flashing that goes up behind the siding and out over the top of the decking, or between the joists and the decking, right? - jb
*Hmmmm. It would depend on a lot of factors including width of deck from house, but wouldn't you be most likely to find unstable conditions under the inside row of posts in backfill material? That would be avoided by the ledger-house connection. The effort/expense saved by not doing the inside row could be allocated, if needed, to better post footings in the outside row if they are suspected of being on unstable material. If there is such a suspision shoudn't it be designed for in any event?I guess it's safe to assume the house is stable if plans have been approved and permits issued. If not and it's one of those slide off the hillside horror stories I guess the deck is going with it anyway!
*Matt G: Yes, in fact that was where I first gave the idea of a close-spaced but separate deck a critical review. I was building in an area where almost all the soil in the flatland part of town is unstable. The drill was to excavate to some semblance of stability and backfill with varying grades of rock, then start the actual building.Most of the decks, steps, walks etc were ramped one way or another in relation to the house. So, I decided to try a separate deck. Worked like a champ. Apparently the ramping was caused by the difference in the soil moving a lot of weight vs a little weight.Since all structures move, even in good soil, this idea should be applicable most places and has the fringe benefit of not having to worry about protecting the ledger board penetration of the outer sheath of the house.
*Ah, I get it. {Why can't you sheat over the rim, and attatch your hangers through the sheating, into the rim, just like you would to the ledger?} Seems like a lot of holes for water to work into, but sure! {How does the ledger stop water from running back against the house?} Drip edge on ledger, and spacers behind it. {Why would you need to nail the first deck board between the joists?} Oops, I was thinking of a specific context -- diagonal decking!{You are talkin' about an L shaped flashing that goes up behind the siding and out over the top of the decking, or between the joists and the decking, right?} No, I flashed between the rim joist and spacers of 5/4 pt for maximum air circ. The oak tree next door dumps tons of gooey organic debris and it is too hard to clean out of small holes.I wish I had started loitering wround here earlier. before, I thought there was an accepted way of doing most simple tasks and asll I had to do was look that up. Turns out you can't assume much or take anyone's advice without thinking it over yourself. That's the BIG thing I've learned here. Thanks for asking, yb.