Well, we were ready to start Monday, had the dirt work contractor on the way, when the contract we had been requesting since day one finally was at the attorney’s door and he vetoed the whole process very strongly, so we called it off.
If any of you GC’s have been in that spot, you will understand that our GC was not happy, nor were we.
Since the attorney approving of the contract was a requirement from the first time we talked about this proyect with the GC and our continued request for one all along was not met, the builder didn’t present the contract until the last minute and then it was not at all what it should have been, our attorney recommended very strongly that looking for another GC was the best.
The GC called the attorney and after that visit the attorney was even more adamant that we change GC’s, not because of any concern on how that GC is as a builder, something the attorney can’t asses from his position, but because of the way the GC was doing business in this case.
So, the process starts again, all of us wiser. That GC will have a reasonable contract ready next time one is requested, I assume, and we have learned not to move so quickly, take time, as someone here advised we do the first time I posted about this.
Replies
Sorry to hear about your setback Ruby. You know I was looking forward to seeing your house go together but contract concerns and business practices are pretty important matters that should not be ignored. Wise decision...
Are SIPs no longer an option at all or will you be able to build a SIP house with another contractor?
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Thanks for your concern. Yes, it was disapointing but, as you say, for the best.
There are not any other SIP manufacturers here and the one I was contracting with is an excellent one, best I could tell.
I have a friend that has been building those big town houses for long time that, after hearing about this, offered to help, maybe even build it himself. A nice change of pace, he said, and fun to think about, as "a little house in the prarie".
He already had some good ideas on the design that we had not been thru before, incorporating some things Hasbeen had already tried to explain to me.
Still in that steep learning curve, or said another way, still so ignorant. So much to learn about building! Hopefully we will be able to do something right this time around.
Good that you know what to do and so can use building knowhow so well. Good luck with yours.
Any chance your friend would be interested in learning how to build with SIP's? I have a video from R-Control I would be happy to send him if he wants more information. Actually, the video can be viewed over the internet HERE, along with a ton of additional information that can be ordered or downloaded directly from R-Control's website. SIPs are pretty straightforward for anyone with a little building experience under their belt.
I'm not giving up on getting you in a SIP house that easily. :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Thanks for the offer and the information.
We will be seeing him Saturday evening and will mention that idea. I doubt that he would want to change to a new kind of building process after almost 30 years and much success with the "old" type of framing, but I may be surprised.
That we were going to build with SIP's was never brought up for him to comment, so I don't know what he thinks of that idea. Will be interesting. I will be taking the Trauton SIP book for him to look at.
I may mention that when our attorney didn't want to continue with the previous GC because he didn't like the contract, he was also wondering if we should have used the SIP system at all, being that it had been around so long now without really catching on that much, wondering why. Thinking that this may be why the attorney was counseling not to proceed, that GC offered to build as intended but with regular framing.
We also have been contacted by two other very nice local people that, hearing that we were building, have offered to do so, with regular systems or trying their first SIP project. Word gets around in such a small place as here.<g>
It is a stressful situation, to have to choose again, but since this friend is taking interest in helping, even if normally he doesn't handle these smaller, out of town jobs any more, letting him do so seems best.
We found out that he is one of the well known and recommended builders in this area and some tradesmen have commented that we were doing well going with him, that he is respected greatly as one of the best GC's around, have worked with him before and have submitted bids to him already for this job.
Anyway, will let you know how all goes.
so you let the contractor dictate what kind of house you want?
sounds kind of backwards to me..
Of course since you have an attorney the problem is worse since if they had their way we'd never change anything since any deviation from the norm is viewed as risky..
Risk is a four letter word to attorneys..
Can I suggest that you watch the movie , Mr. Blandings builds his dream house with Cary Grant , old movie about 1949 or so..
It's entertaining and there is a real message at the end that started me on my own dream house..
---"so you let the contractor dictate what kind of house you want? "---
If you go to the doctor, will you tell them what to do too? You will hope that they consult with you but they are the ones that are supposed to know what is going on.
We don't know anything about building, so our ideas are just that, ideas that a builder will have to bring forth in the best way possible, using their knowledge.
Looking over their shoulder and trusting they know what they are doing is the best we can do. Stressful.
Learning much in a hurry but no match of all the choices and decisions out there!
BTW, our attorney is residential/commercial and agricultural real estate board certified, very experienced and well regarded by his peers and builders in town. He regularly sees building contracts and cases brought by bad or no contracts. I assume that would make anyone "gun-shy" about indeterminate, odd contracts, lacking substance.
Will look for that movie. Thanks for mentioning it.
Thanks also to all who commented.
I certainly can't tell you what to do or not do, but it would be my recommendation to confine the lawyer to legal advice. Once he or she leaves there area of expertise, in this case legal, they just have an opinion like the rest of us. You have lived your whole life in some sort of housing, and only you can know what you want. The architecht has to find a way to draw it, and the contractor finds an acceptable way to build it, and the lawyer is there to make sure that everyone gets what they want, about when they wanted it. Sips have not gotten popular yet because stick framing has about a three hundred year headstart, and we tend to stick with what we know, for better or worse. They are probably a superior system, just not well known yet. Not the fault of anything except momentum, a slow thing to change sometimes.
Good Luck, and enjoy the new home, whatever form it takes. For fun ask the lawyer about Clouds domes and see what they say.
Dan
Like Kevin, I'm sorry to hear about your setback, Ruby. Glad though, that you seem to still have a good attitude. Tenacity is THE KEY to everything!
Perhaps with the extra time you'll wind up with an even better new home...
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Ruby, by all means ask your contractor friend about building with SIPs. I always enjoy the challenge and learning involved with new products and methods, and this after 25 years. Hope I'll feel the same way afrer 30.
Kevin,
I am just curious, as I am sure others are....exactly what part of the contract did your attorney not like ? It might help us all in our future business "dealings" and also as consumers. I am personally planning on going through the home building process in the next year or so and would be interested.
Thanks,
Bill
It was a short contract with the stipulations of what we had to pay, how much and and when and no mention of any obligations or responsabilities on the part of the GC. A date to finish by was the only concession by the GC and it was not tying him down to anything if not.
There was one addition that the GC had not mentioned previously (but that I was aware of as it had been mentioned here) and added 5% to the cost. He really should have mentioned it when discussing the cost, not have it in the small print of a contract. Could have been an oversight or I may have missed it, but I don't think so as I asked about pricing several times to be sure.
A GC that said he has been in business as such for 30 years and before ran two plumbing companies in two different towns, should have had some kind of proper contract after all these years. I am sure that as a builder he is very good, or we would not have chosen him to start with.
There are standard contracts that have been proven in courts over the years and have most possible contingencies already taken into consideration. Maybe you should look at them to pattern yours by.
I think that our attorney saw too many areas of possible conflict in continuing with this GC and that is why he advised us not to go on with it. Maybe his advice was overly conservative but his experience on these matters is why we have him go over contracts. You would not consult an attorney and then not listen to his advice. If we are going to do what we want anyway, we don't need to spend money on attorneys.
To Ruby and all,
I'd also like to continue to encourage you to look for a way to build your SIP home. We're living in one now (our second SIP house) and would do it again. It is very strong in the face of high winds and bad weather. I can understand why a GC might be very cautious about the technique for building with insulated panels the first time, and would write up a contract that is more vague than usual.
best wishes,
D&L
Except that it is not the first time for this GC.
He has been manufacturing those panels for his firm and other builders for four years now and "has built 100 houses out of them", by his son's words (who is a builder along with his father).
Thank you for letting me know that the choice of SIP was not a bad one.
We will be covering that question with the next builder.
Edited 7/25/2003 12:55:24 PM ET by Ruby
Frankly my question wouldn't be is the contract well written, does it cover all legal bases..
In fact I would be afraid if it was well written.. that means he has had enough legal experiance to be able to write a good contract..
I deal with people all of the time.. some I have iron clad agreements with but most are nothing more then cost and a handshake.. Occasionally amounts involved exceed that of a new house.. Most contractors prefer that.. There is 40 million ways for a contractor to be cheated and to cheat others.. Those who have a good reputation and have been in business for a long time are a much better bet than the best contract in the world..
A poor builder with a great contract is to be feared..
If I were your contractor and you complained not about the house but the contract, I would understand that you have buyers remorse and will be a major pain.. I'd give you any way out you want. If you didn't ask for an out, I'd come up with a way to dump you..
I hope this doesn't offend you but rather gives you an insite to the world of contracting.. Just for information, in 12 years of dealing with contractors I've been stung three times.. I average 3 to 10 contracts/handshakes a month.. There are dishonest contractors out there but they aren't in business for 30 years with a good reputation.. A simple credit check will determine if the builder is honest..
Edited 7/25/2003 11:07:42 PM ET by frenchy
Not offended at all. I do think that the builder is honest and good or would not have chosen him, SIP panels or not, but the panels were one important reason to go with him.
We were starting to have several unanswered questions (like why did he wait to the last moment to get that contract to the attorney) but they were not that important and probably would have explained themselves as we went along.
He was a neighbor of a very good friend and that friend recommended him. We didn't check any other references but saw one house he was finishing for his son and another nearby that was being started.
We called all off because our attorney didn't like this deal as it was coming along when he saw what had been submitted as a contract and talked to them.
We are in the cattle business and thru all these years we have been buying and selling truck loads of cattle, worth several times what many houses cost, over the phone or on a handshake, but we know what we are doing and who we are doing business with and they know us. There are no surprises expected.
This has been a different experience. We were asked by our attorney to have a contract signed and approved before starting and had requested so from the start.
I agree that if there is no trust, to quit before starting is best.
I am afraid that you may have lost a builder who could build you the house you want. A lawyer's job is to look for potential problems and to help you avoid them. If that means avoiding risk that could get you what you want, so be it. That's his job. The price in this case is having to find another builder. Will this next guy build as good a house or will he just have a better contract?
The builder was slow in producing the contract because he is busy doing what he does, building houses. Maybe he should pay more attention to his contracts but he paid the price of losing the job. Even so, I doubt he will change. If he is good at his real job, he will not notice the loss.
You and your lawyer lost a chance to propose changes in the contract and work out a deal. Maybe your lawyer knows something from the grapevine that makes him want to steer clear of this builder, in which case you are better off with someone else, but if he is just judging by a piece of paper and his own past experience with problems, you may be missing out. Good luck in your future and persevere.
Wow ...that a shame...
Sounds like you might have lost a good builder because your attorney doesn't understand the use of SIP's in construction.
Maybe the attorney needs to be reminded a verbal contract is still a contract ....so the written one the guy has used for 30 yrs is probably good enough to everyone that isn't an attorney.
On the plus side......sounds like a mis-match in personalities between the original contractor and homeowner.
Me .... I'd be mad as hell some attorney screwed up my cash flow....
Then happy as hell I didn't have to deal with customers that belived everything their attorney said and nothing I said.
Trust ....it's a huge part of remodeling/home building.
Somewhere along the lines it was lost or not earned.
Somewhere in the world an attorney got paid and a contractor lost money......
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
The verbal contract stipulated, the first time I talked to each of the four contractors that were going to bid on this house, that we needed a contract that would be acceptable to our attorney, as he had warned us to have one before starting.
All four agreed that such would not be a problem at all.
I repeated that every time we spoke. I even asked what kind of contract they used and all said only that they would get one.
I don't think this GC had seen the contract before getting it and giving it to us. His son, an attorney, prepared it for him, for what he said.
I really feel bad about all of this but the way things happened, it still seems today that quitting before starting was the best.
Just one Question how much is all this legal advice costing ? Not just in legal fees, but in lost time, for you and the GC who lost the job. Involving lawyers in the bidding process can only raise the building costs and I would be willing to bet your lawyer charges 3 to 4 times more per 15 minute phone call than the GC charges per hour and the GCs consultations have been free.
We were in the process of doing other contract work thru the attorney, not related to the building of the house and when we mentioned about going to build, he made some recommendations and strongly suggested that we have a contract up front, so we did make a point to ask for one right off.
We did not ask for any builder's names as we already had four names that we were going to talk to, one that built with concrete, another with SIP panels and the other two with regular framing and we didn't want to add any others.
That attorney knew that and so didn't say anything then about knowing a reputable builder to recommend and still has not said anything now, that we didn't bring up first.
The GC, when we were discussing not proceeding, accused the attorney of wanting us to use one of his "friends" and get a kickback. We didn't mention this to our attorney as he didn't like the situation with that GC already and he is a honorable man that did not and would not do so anyway. I mention this in case the same has crossed your mind.
Contracts are his field and he sees building contracts all the time, for good and bad (when they didn't work or none were provided up front to clarify what was being agreed on).
This attorney does work for several of the builders in town and they respect him.
I understand that, as builders, some here may be wary of attorneys on principle.
In this case, I think that this is just an unhappy situation that maybe was handled a little carelessly by the GC and by us not insisting on that contract before going ahead with the planning, not just the starting. But then, without some of the planning first, it would have been hard to determine what the contract should be.
That is why GC's have some up front costs on bids (like phone bills, consultations with their suppliers, be it subcontractors, designers or attorneys if they need one for contracts, etc.) that they will not recover if their bid is not accepted, for whatever reason.
That is part of doing business. Homeowners have expenses too with each contractor they consider before deciding on one, like when contracts are involved, costs that are not directly from the building process itself.
Edited 7/27/2003 11:28:05 AM ET by Ruby
Ruby,
I don't think you need to defend yourself. You are not a lawyer or a contractor, therefore it makes complete sense to me to have a lawyer look over your contract for you. I have seen many posts on this website advising contractors to have a lawyer look over their contracts, and I think the same advise is good for a homeowner, even more so. Your lawyer looked over the contract and his experience and gut told him that this was a deal that could go sour. That is why you hired the lawyer and if you weren't going to listen to him, why bother. It is entirely possible that you could have built the SIP home of your dreams with your original guy and been perfectly happy, but he failed to meet your first requirements up front with the contract, and that is a red flag. If you ignored that red flag and went ahead and things went wrong, there would be plenty of people on this site to tell you that you should have heeded the warnings and had a lawyer examine the contract. Don't second guess yourself about whether you made the wrong decision, there is absolutely no way to know. So be happy with your decision and good luck with your home.
I've had a couple of brief e-mail exchanges with Ruby and the more I learn, the more I believe her attorney made the right call in this instance.
One detail that has not been mentioned is the fact that the original contractor is making his own panels from scratch. They are not tested to UL specifications. Every single case of SIP failure that I am aware of involved panels that were not UL certified. They may well be an excellent product but I would never build with a SIP panel that had not passed UL lab's testing procedures - particularly one that did not have a substantial warranty.
Maybe it would have worked out and maybe it wouldn't have but the bottom line is, this just isn't the right contract or contractor for this house and this homeowner. It happens, and the best thing to do is to shake hands and walk away before breaking ground. That, in and of it's self takes some guts.
Ruby has gone out of her way to offer the benefit of doubt and her compliments to the original GC in this thread. There is not one hint of arrogance or malice in her details, just legitimate concern. I think she deserves a little credit for having the wisdom to trust those she has hired to handle the details in areas where she has little experience. The way I read it, we could all learn a thing or two by her example.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
personally ....I stand corrected.
I'd jump ship as soon as the homemade SIP's were mentioned.
Or ...like I said .....non-compatable personalities. A dude that makes his own materials when they can be store bought and certified....is never gonna get thru a build with someone that runs most everything past a lawyer.
Different ends of the "risk" spectrum to say the least.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Ruby,
What might make sense on your next go round with contractors...have your attorney draft a contract for the contractor to review and accept. There will always be issues to negotiate, but at least this gets you heading in the right direction.
I read Wrecked Angles post about this contractor "making his own panels". If this is indeed accurate, then you and your attorney made the right decision. There are plenty of real manufactures out there that can put you in touch with local contractors who use their products.
I'm sure you know about the website: sipweb.com They have a manufacturers and contractor directory that might be helpful in your new quest.
GOOD LUCK
Tim
Thanks to all for the well wishes.
We are proceeding slowly this time, getting all lined up carefully first.
Our attorney does prepare contracts for several GC's in town and normally he doesn't see any problems when contracts are well made and discussed up front. This was a rare case.
Yes, I went to the SIP webpage and looked around at all that interesting information before deciding to go that route. I have one well recommended company in mind, if we do decide to try for SIP again. Just don't quite know now what we will do. It is back to the planning stage, hopefully sufficiently wiser to do things right this time.
Thanks to all for the good thoughts and giving of your time to inform people like us that don't know anything about this.
This is a very good site, priceless as far as information for all.