Remodeling a bath at my house, I found myself having to reroute a drain for the tub. Although I know how to work with PVC, I was unsure on a few details of running the vent. After looking around in the archives here, I couldn’t find the info I needed, but saw a poster who advised someone to hire a plumber to come and advise him on the right way to do a project.
So I called up a reputable plumbing company and told them I wanted to hire someone to come out and tell me the right way to do it. I was told, “We’re plumbers, not advisors.” I told them, ok, just come out and do it for me then. When they showed up for the appointment, the plumber told me that they had an emergency call and they couldn’t do the job today, but they would look at it and quote me. So they looked, answered all my questions, I paid the $58 trip charge and he said I could call the office and set up the job. Now I have all the information to do it myself. I don’t imagine they made any profit on the $58, because they sent out two men and a truck for an hour. I would have been willing to pay a couple hundred for their time.
Am I out of line asking a tradesperson to be a consultant?
Replies
Am I out of line asking a tradesperson to be a consultant?
No, but given their potential liability, they also aren't out of line to decline.
Not sure I quite qualify as a tradesperson, but I do a bit of consulting. Generally enjoy it and find it lucrative. There's one particular GC here who's found my input to be worth the cost. He's buying most of my next week. Major problems dealing with the city, converting an old house into offices.
Last week was an owner/builder who just about keeled over when I pointed out the error of his assumptions. Saved him several thousand dollars and several weeks' work.
For your question, I've found inspectors to be helpful. Requires a very careful attitude on your part, but the info's there. Around here anyway, the inspectors have the same goal as the builder, code compliance.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I found your post on your consulting work very interesting. What is your background? How did you get into this? What do you mean by "lucrative" specifically, if I may be so bold? Elaborate please.
Edited 8/13/2005 11:53 am ET by Kowboy
"Lucrative", like any adjective, is relative. If you look at my profile you'd see that I'm not normally gainfully employed.
Which is no answer to your question. I have a sliding scale, both for clients and type of consultation. On one extreme, driveway surveys generally work out around $300/hr. That ain't the low end.
Don't do many surveys, but I got a reputation by fixing something that the (other) roadbuilders in the area couldn't- my driveway, built by an incompetent roadbuilder. This is where I learned, by necessity. The before and after was so startling that everybody who experienced the before, was pretty impressed. I'd just as soon sell a survey as do the actual work. Tractor driving, while also "lucrative", gets old fast.
The other opportunities are all referral, from those who happen to know that I've done some slightly unusual things. My vocation is furniture making, but I haven't accepted a commission for quite awhile. In the course of building our house and the other buildings here, I got pretty well rounded. In another life I had a security business (a disparate sideline to the furniture), that occasionally overlaps here.
On rare occasion I'll get asked about something I'm totally unprepared for. Those are the most interesting, when I get paid to educate myself. Learned a whole lot about swimming pools that way. I wanted a pool and it prepared me to build one. Same client paid me to refrigerator shop for him. That was partly design decision: if not a pair of SubZeros, what?
Next week is dealing with what was originally going to be a grass paving system, now only crushed stone in the grid, and reinforced concrete. The concrete I got comfortable with by building our house, DIY. The GC has the organization that I lack, and doesn't want to know a lot about it. The archy/engineer design was really pretty simple, but the city is extremely picky. It'll be more supervising, than consulting, if there's a distinction. This GC also knows I don't hedge. His guys are used to me. I was surprised the first time he proposed paying me to look at a pair of very old houses. That's his forte.
Mostly it's just look at the situation, listen, and offer suggestions, like last week. Sometimes coupled with a small lecture about how something works. BT actually helped out on that one. Between Piffin and Mike Smith I can now give a reasonable explanation of ridge boards/beams and ties. That's assuming the other person knows less than I do. LOL This time it impressed. I was actually brought in over reinforced concrete, which ended up being discarded as unnecessary. We went from foundation to ridge and quite a bit inbetween. House was already gutted, so it was simple to make suggestions. Even some of the gutters are being eliminated.
You might do better to pose your question to Piffin, who is considerably more commercially successful than I am. To me, this isn't really a business, more having fun and being helpful. Well, and a little money to grease the works...
Edit: forgot to mention that this my first building, in case you might want to hire me:
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 8/13/2005 3:12 pm ET by VaTom
Thanks.
You're welcome. Hope you enjoyed the pic. <G>
Something I forgot were the several folks who've employed me to inspect land for building suitability. You'd think they'd have their GC for that, but faith is a big issue. Faith in me, that is.
Another poor lost soul paid me to help her find a house for her disabled parents and then deal with contractors later. It wasn't a very good idea from the getgo, but we made the best of it and got them into an appropriate house. Amazingly enough, it was somebody I met over the internet. I saved her more than I cost, by suggesting something a Realtor had said might not be the case. Turned out that house (different one) had no potential for hooking into the electric grid, would be on a generator indefinitely. Realtor had never heard of such a thing.
A lot of this I learned in my own land search. There's much that can go wrong.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've got to get into this consulting thing. I could save people money too. My wife has the real job with the health insurance and stuff. Any suggestions will be appreciated.
My wife doesn't, is self-employed. We pay through the nose for health insurance, such as it is. Live cheap and pay as we go. Made some decent real estate purchases. Both really enjoy what we're doing. Lots of variety.
If you're self-employed, you already have a taste. If not, you need to give it a try. Most aren't very successful.
Learned a long time ago I'm a crappy supervisor. Couldn't sell real estate for squat. But I can sell me. So it's me with a tool, or me with my observations. Would you believe I have 2 tractors on 2 jobs tomorrow, one operator? Oh, well. Sometimes over sell.
When you don't die, you live a long time. (Duh!) If you were paying attention, you learned along the way. I ended up with something(s) saleable. Partly from trying for that which was just about out of reach. Sometimes succeeded, sometimes failed.
The big step is to act professionally. And, as is often quoted here, never be afraid of the money. I was a slow learner on that last part. Apparently is normal.
Remember: no risk, no gain. But above all, have fun. And don't count on consulting income. I'm not much of a business model. Actually, considerably less than that.
Good luck.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Thanks again.
Tom - You have been a pretty busy guy. I like your outlook - especially the part about learning something new once in a while. So, when are you going to write your book? I'd like to read that one.
I hope we meet one of these days.
Don (Formerly Hammerlaw)
VaTom,
I talked to my insurance rep yesterday about consulting and was informed that my general liability does not cover me if I consult on something and later get sued for something I might of missed.
Consulting requires professional insurance(?) that will cost an extra 2500$ a year.
So in reply to the original question I am going to be way more selective in my advise/guidance issues.
ANDYSZ2I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
It depends on the type of consulting, how much risk/liability there is.I offer advice on non-structural aspects of design. I just suggested that a homeowner reduce the amount of west facing windows installed in a sunroom to minimize afternoon solar gain. This wall was also about 12' from the neighbors house, so by placing smaller windows with sills at 7' (10' wall), we also gained privacy and wall space for furniture. We maximized east and south wall glazing to reduce heating loads during the three coolest seasons.This kind of consulting is only about as dangerous as suggesting a certain color of socks to match your ascot.Edit to add: Just read my post and got to thinking...window advice should take into account lighting and ventilation, egress, applications requiring tempered glazing, etc. So there is potential for mistakes that could compromise safety. I could have picked a better example. I consult on closet organizing too, not much can go wrong in a closet...don't' block attic access or put shelves too close to certain kinds of light fixtures, etc. There is some risk in getting out of bed in the morning. Don't consult outside of your areas of expertise, or when risks are significant. I don't have additional insurance for consulting, but I don't put myself on the line unless I have considerable competence in that area.
Edited 8/16/2005 12:16 pm ET by basswood
Edited 8/16/2005 1:01 pm ET by basswood
Hi Don,
Not much chance of a book. Once wrote a paper for an architecture class that was pretty well received. They invited me back to lecture on the subject. At the time I realized I could have expanded it into a book, given enough time. My draft board intervened, giving me other priorities. Since then I've learned how much I don't know.
You know more or less where I am, depending on what's going on that day, give a yell when you're coming through.
Seems to me that if you're not getting rich (I'm not), then you better be having fun (I am). Was networking this AM to see who wants the large amount of dirt that has to be removed from the Charlottesville site. Engineer was out yesterday. Yikes! 6 blueprint pages of plans were about as poor as I've ever seen. 2 of them contradicted each other.
"Follow it exactly." But the reinforced concrete retaining wall and steps weren't located. And would you believe a 4' wide footer for a 2' tall wall? I guess it probably won't tip over. The rebar looked like what I've been using in 8' tall walls. Fortunately I don't deal with the couple signing the checks- or I'd have to mention what I thought of the engineering. IIRC, the estimate, from the engineer, was $25k. Might be a tad light... by maybe 2/3. And then the backyard will slope down to the basement door. I'm impressed.
The fool had the temerity to slide in behind me while I was backing my loaded truck out of the blind backyard. Then parked in the only place I could conveniently turn around. Sometimes it's difficult to remain civil.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
you are not out of line. Some of us do and some don't.
Like asking a girl for a dance - some will and some won't
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
That is esasy for you to say! I have not found a girl yet that when asked would dance.Working for nothing is not getting any cheaper.
Wouldn't you folks describe UbuildIt as being a consulting operation. I would.
(the discussion here UBuildit Major Home Renovation Progress)
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My business cards read "Contractor & Consultant."
Most of the time I just do trim carpentry and cabinet installation. Sometimes a DIY'er hires me to get them started on a project, or work with them, or just provide advice. It pays well and generates goodwill and referrals.
You'll find that some contractors /skilled trademen are more than a little leary to give out advice only if for insurance purposes alone. I am one of these shmucks who for the first 20 years would give out free advice without so much as a thank you from the other end at times. I'm through doing that. They blew it. I now will not give out any advice let alone do any consulting without getting well paid for it or without being assured the pending job. I'll give a short tip here and there, especially to my fellow tradesmen, but I've been burned too many times by people who got all the wonderful info from me and then never hear from them again. No more Mr nice guy on that end.
Like they said in the movie... "show me the money".
Pay the plumber to come back. I have no doubt that they answered your questions, and that you could now do the work. But you called them out to do the work, they don't consult. If you ever need a plumber,and you don't have them fix this vent, they will not be back.
As for consulting, I do it all the time. If your project is a 100,000 diy house, I get a percentage. If you just need me here and there, I charge by the hour.
PAY THE PLUMBERAn inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
My intention was to pay them and have them do the work. But I was kind of p****d that they didn't come out and take care of it like they said they were going to do. Instead, they give me a song and dance, collect the trip charge and go on to the rest of the stuff they booked for that day. Mostly, though, I just wanted to get going and I knew I could get it done myself this weekend rather than making an appointment for the next time I have a weekday off from work.
Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the plumber was wrong. They actually charged a trip charge? When they were supposed to come out and do the work, and then didn't do the work. If they had an emergency job that pulled them away, they should have given you the estimate and told you to call back, not charged a dime.
I agree with Stilts ( are you a drywaller or just tall?) anyway charging for the trip was BS. They should have given you a quote not a oh we need to leave pay for our time doing nothing. Maybe they looked at your job and thought it was too much of a headache and made up an excuse to leave?
I help out friends or people I know in the circle with "here's what you need and how you go about it". I don't advise on structures though I can unless I put in a disclaimer. I did look into consulting on a new house build but the liability insurance was too much. You either consult as a business or not, too many people are ready to sue you when things don't go right.
Started out in drywall when I first got into construction, since then I've expanded into other fields.
It's amazing how many "friends" you have when you have something they want.
So it makes it hard to give advice you get caught in a paradox if you say I charge for that you are sometimes called a thief if you don't then word gets around and you get buried in calls for free advice and when you refuse you get called "otherthings"
you got to make sure they understand what you want. Tell them. Expect to pay for the answers. Ask ahead of time. Lots of luck.
The problem for them is: "So they looked, answered all my questions".
Probably not a big loss on their side but most contractors have to learn the lesson. Don't specify how you do work or what materials you will use in anything but the most general terms.
Knowledge and experience are valuable. Outside of this forum I don't usually give it away cheaply. Advising HOs is always touch and go. You know that if things go really wrong, even if it is because the HO misunderstood, or ignored, the advice given the advisors name will likely come up during investigation.
Another point is that DIY types often don't know the basics or the language. I would need to essential hold a class. Those who have their bases covered and I can be easily understood by usually don't have much need for the advice on any but the most complicated issues.
Some tradesmen have tried to make giving advice a profit center. Mostly people don't listen or they don't want to pay enough to make it profitable. The few I know who consult do so on large jobs only. They found there are too many conflicts on small jobs and avoid them.
Of course there are exceptions. If a friend or HO has the right attitude, if they have done their homework and learned the basics and the lingo, try the local libraries, most tradesmen would tend to help them out. If they are poor, working folks trying to get by help comes easier. If they are rich dilettantes who are just too cheap to come off the money and could afford professional work I clam up. A lot of the later sort don't listen and/or have little gratitude for what is offered.
Here in the Los Angeles Area, 90% of the REPAIR plumbers do not know how to "rough in" plumbing in new construction. They have no licese, their boss does. They did not go to trade school but had in-house training.
They do it all the time, it's called a Free Estimate !!!
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!