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I’ve seen both cedar and pine used as exterior window trim in different circumstances. In my case, I’d like to do a rather simple window trim detail that I think would look crisper in pine instead of cedar. I know that it’s important to preprime the pine to help it last.
I’d like to hear some opinions on whether to use the pine or cedar. I guess the crispness detail has me slanted towards pine.
Some detail on the house – Front will be brick, and the sides and back will be hardi-plank. With the side and back windows, I have a simple sill and side casements in mind. But the head casement will have a rounded 5/4 cap on top. Sorry if my terminology is incorrect, but I think this gives you a picture. When I think of cedar I think of rough wood which wouldn’t give the crisp look I’m after.
Any thoughts or experiences would be appreciated.
Matt
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Matt -
You don't say where you live, but I assume that moisture is the main factor in what material to use. Pine is not a good material for exterior use, even if it's painted well. Cedar is good for rot resistance, but it is soft. My vote for exterior trim goes to mahogany, which isn't cheap, but is pretty rot resistant and machines beautifully. An alternative that we have used a lot is PrimeTrim, which is a G-P product that is basically exterior grade MDF. It is cheap, easy to use, and is as rot resistant as cedar or redwood. It has a couple drawbacks, like it will dull any steel blade very quickly, and it puckers around nail heads, but it is still a good product. Whatever you use make sure you prime it on all sides.
*Nick - what do you do then, sand those "puckers" off before painting? Does that stuff come moulded, or in sheets, or what?OH! Matt - sorry, had to come back, I use Cedar as exterior trim whenever I have the chance. True, even here in the GREAT NORTHWEST we don't get the black old growth with the good resins like we used to, but I'm an old dog, and I still trust Cedar over anything else available.
*Jim - Yeah, we sand them off and then reprime over the spot. You have to predrill anyway, so we also started using SS trim heads, which don't pucker too bad. It's kind of annoying, but once you get a whole pile of 16 footers that are totally straight, and don't warp or cup, it seems like a good trade off.It comes in 1x6,8, and 12, 5/4x6, and a premade brickmold profile. There might be other sizes but that is what we have used a lot of. It's preprimed on three sides. The only other drawback that jumps to mind is that it is pretty floppy, you have to support it every 12-16" or it will wave. It's not recommended for soffits because of that. What we have done is use it for fascia, siding, cornerboards, etc., and then use 1x mahogany for soffits.
*What's that stuff cost Nick? You say it's rot resistant? Is it pretty stable?Matt - you could always surface that Cedar you know. Around here 1 x and 5/4 are rough one side but 2 x is usually S4S. Cedar cleans up real nice, but like Nick said, it is soft.
*I am in Ohio (Mid-Northeast part of state). I'll look into the GP primetrim. I've seen it on their web site only, never used it before. If you could give a ballpark price Nick, that'd be appreciated. I'll check some of the suppliers around here and maybe get some to play with first.We're about average moisture around here. How about finger joint cedar? Friend of mine currently used it on his own house because of the cost of clear cedar.One thing he did was pre-make all/most of his exterior window trim. He mounted it on 3/8" plywood, and when he was ready he just simply mounted them up on the windows and nailed/screwed them in place. He's building his house on side during off hours, so he's doing alot of this type of pre-work as time permits. Since I've got the winter/spring til we start serious work on mine, I'm thinking of doing the same thing. But first, just trying to determine what material to use for the windows.Thanks JB and Nick for the feedback.Matt
*Another question Nick on the prime trim - You say its rot resistant like cedar or mahogany. How long have you used the product? Guess I'm just a bit skeptical if its a new product about the claim, unless its been out for a number of years and there a little bit of a track record to look back on. Have you used it in a wet part of the country?Matt
*OK, here goes prices - this was over a year ago, but I don't think they've changed too much...1 x 8 x 16 - $16.001 x 12 x 16 - $24.005/4 x 6 x 16 - $18.00As far as rot resistance, G-P offers a ten year warranty (God only knows if that's worth anything), and their literature compares it to redwood and cedar for decay resistance. I am not a sucker for new materials, so we did an unscientific field test that consisted of taking a chunk of it and throwing it in a bucket for a month, and then leaving it in the rain for about another six months. It didn't seem much the worse for wear, and even retained it's dimensions, didn't swell up. When we cut it in half, it was still dry except for the outside 1/16". That pretty much convinced me. We've come to like it mainly because it is very stable, and flat, and straight, so putting together long runs of exterior trim is a lot easier. And the joints seem to stay a lot tighter. One bad thing: the dust- make sure you wear a mask if you do lots of cutting.Anyway, I sure hope it works like they say, because we have put up a lot of it!
*Thanks Nick. I looked at their website. I tried to see if you could use a galv. finish nail on exterior application, but it didn't look like they stated it. Have you? If I make these window trim templates, I've got a finish nailer that I would probably use. I really don't know of a reason why you couldn't use a galv. finish nail on the stuff.Matt
*Whatever you use get the best primer that you can find. I did a test with Insul-X latex primer on a piece of Balsa wood 5 years ago out here in the salt air that still looks good.
*Matt: I use to use poplar back in Western NY. It "works" real well when shaped w/ a router or shaper. i used it for custom exterior mouldings around windows, doors & as a freize board for brick, usu. in the form of a dental mould. I always back-primed 2 coats & let the painters handle the rest. Back there it cost a bit more than #2pine, but I always bought it a mill, then planed & shaped it myself.
*I have to second tooch about the machinability of poplar. I haven't used it outdoors yet, but it is cheap, tight grained, and machines beautifully for any painted millwork. In fact, the last time I used it for a wall full of paint grade raised panels the customer took one look and asked about staining. On my list of winter projects is to experiment with various stains and oils on it.
*Jim - I love poplar, too. I use it for all interior trim, unless we are using stock 2 1/4" casing, which is rare. I get fingerjoint poplar at my local yard and I love that even more (for paint-grade) because it's nice and straight, and doesn't seem to shrink much. But personally I wouldn't use poplar outside. A few pieces I have seen left outside didn't fare well.
*Does it "fungus up"? Does it twist and move? Does it hold paint? (outside, that is)
*I have used Poplar many times on interior projects, and I am a big fan of it as well. I love the browns and greens in it. Many people don't, but that just means more for me!My only complaint on it is it's hardness, or lack thereof. But, I can overlook that. I haven't used it outdoors for the same reason Nick mentions. I made something (can't remember what) and it got left outside for a little while and deteriorated rapidly. It did get a fungus film on it. Granted it was not finished, but that showed me enough. I think pine would do better than poplar.I'm even considering using poplar for trim on the interior of our timberframe house. It is 3rd place right now behind oak and ash, but that could change once the budget starts to come into play. Although ash is about the same as poplar, so probably stick to ash.
*Howdy (That's Texan for what's up)Here in Southeast Texas, 1 x 8 x 16' finger jointed Redwood goes for .89 a foot (that's $14.24 for 16')I use Redwood any chance I get for fascia, window trim, corner trim, etc... Pine doesn't take or hold paint very well. Rough cedar is only rough on 1 side, but it is EXTREMELY expensive here (1 x 12 x 8' goes for $27.50) Around here, the drawback to cedar is the irregular thicknesses. One piece may be 5/8", the next 3/4", the next 7/8" etc... (or any variation in between). If we use it for much, we usually have to plain it. That just adds more work.Just a thought...James DuHamel
*James -I think that if I asked for finger-joint redwood around here, they would look at me like a dog hearing a funny sound... especially at that price.
*I know that look well...I think they train these guys to have "that look" whenever we ask for materials they aren't familiar with, or if it will take more than 2 minutes for them to get info on something.The redwood comes grooved or ungrooved. I use the grooved for fascia, and the ungrooved for corner trim, window trim, door trim, etc... It takes paint very well, and around here, it outlasts all the other materials available. It's kinda funny too... If I want anything wider than 6" in PT, I have to go to Houston to get it. I don't think they ever heard of "shipping" over here. Oh well... Just a thought...James DuHamel
*I'm using the same stuff under the wayerhouser name- choicetrim- on my haouse as we speak. The stuff is pretty nice. Ablolutely straight and uniform. A little funky to work with, but when you look at what is readily available the choice gets pretty easy. my siding is 8-1/4 hardie plank, and the 5/4 x 4 looks great with it. Just the right reveal at he edges. In a small town in CA. with one lumber yard, (can you say monopoly?) I'm paying about 75 cents a lin. ft. Not exactly cheap, but not bad if you say it real fast. Didn't really condider cedar after looking at what was available. Hope that helps.
*Please don't use poplar in exterior applications. It really does not hold up well in exterior use. I do use it extensively for all interior paint-grade trim. It does machine well and takes paint nicely.How "crisp" do you want your exterior trim? With paint-grade, which seems where you're headed since the idea of finger-jointed has been broached, I don't like the machined edges to be too sharp. We typically round over all edges, just a bit, with a scuff-sanding. It helps with the longevity of the paint job. With machine-sharp edges, the paint may fail prematurely, cracking at that crisp corner during the paint/wood expansion/contraction cycle. A slightly rounded edge helps out. A slightly rounded over edge also takes paint better when painting. I'm not talking anything with a serious radius, just something that is less than "sharp".Between the two (pine or cedar), I'd go with cedar. Machine it yourself if strict profile continuity is needed. Finger-joints can be a source of failure. Seriously price out the difference and factor in the possibility of failed finger-joints a few years down the road. On a whole house, what's it worth to not have to possiblyreplace a bit of trim? A hundred? Two, or three hundred dollars?These "few hundreds" add up quickly over the course of something as extensive as building a house. However, there are areas where it's "safe" to shave expenses, and areas where it may be more cost efficient to spend the money now. Good luck with your project, I hope your house serves you and your family well.
*Hi,Poplar has a dismal reputation for rot resitance. Perhaps its reputation is not helped by the fact that logs of poplar rot to pulp in a few years. No poplar trim for me even though carefull painting could conceivably adress this problem.joe