I’ve been dealing with a medium-sized local semi-custom to custom cabinet shop, and I’ve noticed that some of the maple looks odd recently. It’s hard to explain, and my camera is on the fritz, but it’s almost like a section of the wood has a birthmark. These areas appear darker than the surrounding area, but the shape is not related to the grain pattern. The areas are generally pretty large and occur in several places along the length of a 1×4 or a door.
I know that oversanding maple can cause problems, but I don’t know if that’s the case here. I haven’t encountered it in the other lines I use, and it hasn’t been a problem before with this one.
Also have started to get mouldings with a heavy grain pattern almost perpendicular to the length of the stick. In a way it’s like tiger maple. It’s so markedly different from the other materials that it can’t be used and customers think it’s defective.
What do you all think?
Replies
I agree with the customers. It may be a natural part of the wood or it may be someting that happend to the wood. Either way, it shouldn't have been used.
I returned 2 out of 7 oak veneer slab doors because they were tiger striped - something that one would normally pay extra for. But they didn't match the other 5 doors and that made them defective.
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I'm thinking we'll warehouse the tiger trim, but I don't know if we'll be able to use it. I don't know if anyone would find it acceptable even if all the moulding was the same. It just looks particularly weird with the cabinets...amazing that something that's a premium product usually is considered sub-standard, but it's just such a contrast that's what's happened.
"I'm thinking we'll warehouse the tiger trim"
I'd return it, not only for the money but also to make my point, that this client (you) expects higher standards.
Many of the responses point out that "it's wood", and you can't expect perfection. Typically, I might have responded the same, but kitchens is your thing. I figure if you have to ask, then it's not your typical blemish. And if your client is concerned, then it should be remedied. --------------------------------------------------------
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My Dad owns a company that makes cabinet doors. Their standards for the appearance of grain, imperfections, etc. make me grit my teeth at the utter anal retentivity of it all. It came out of the forest, fer godssake!!!
But anyways: if those people can get it absolutely perfect, there's no reason why your supplier can't avoid some obvious blemishes.
Afterthought: Dad wasn't amused when I suggested that we'd all be better off if we left cherry out in the sun to darken up. "That's obviously the color it's supposed to be!" ;-)
I took the factory tour at Wellborn cabinets recently. I swear if they can't make it, they won't sell it. Speaking of being a-retentive...
They process their own raw lumber, dry it in their own kiln, etc. Once it's cut into pieces it's sorted into pieces for mouldings, drawer sides, framing, etc. depending on the grain character and clarity of the wood. The knotty stuff goes into the bin for their "character" products, which have become really popular.
It's sanded between each process and quality checked about 10 times. I've yet to get a piece that I considered blemished.
I'm figuring the smaller co is buying milled lumber and using whatever is next on the pallet, so the culling process doesn't exist. Still, a big, blotchy area the size of my hand should set off an alarm somewhere.
I was wondering if it was a natural defect or if it's in the handling or finishing.
Yeah, I'll bet Dad was enthusiastic about leaving the cherry out!
<<a big, blotchy area the size of my hand>>It's 99% sure that it's what Sphere said it was: sticker stain. ("Stickers" are the narrow boards placed between layers of boards to facilitate drying.) Maple is prone to it. If you have a long stick, you'll likely see it on regular spacing. It CAN be planed off, but you lose a lot of wood. I try to turn it to the unseen side in order not to waste it.Here's a site with a couple pix of sticker-stain examples: http://www.lathamtimber.co.uk/InformationA.171.html
Edited 6/20/2008 1:08 pm by splintergroupie
We used clear all-sapwood rock maple for guitar necks and Sticker stain was way too common. It CAN be planed out sometimes, but more often than knot ( tee-hee) it goes deep.
Most common cause is not using the same species for stickers as what is being stickered. Maple by far is the worst for it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Thanks for the website!
Actually, it could be sticker stain, but it looks more like wane. The explanation on wane wasn't real clear to me; can you fill me in?
Wane is a bit of bark left on the edge of the board that has been ripped (cut in a straight line lengthwise). This would never be left on a board used in a cabinet, but it's sometimes left in a board. The idea is that it can be cut around with less wood loss that would occur if the edge were removed sufficiently to remove the barky part. It happens bec the bole (stem/stalk) of the tree the board is taken from is curved.Wane is linear in nature; sticker stain would give a blotchy look or even a stripe perpendicular to the length of the board. Here's another site showing how wood is stickered for entry into a kiln. Note the copy that talks about sticker stain. It's a problem for the kilns, too. http://www.dlhusa.com/our_products_gr/kilnsticks_gr.htm
Edited 6/20/2008 2:49 pm by splintergroupie
I'm wondering if she isn't seeing planer skip as well? Ya know, a thin spot from the bandmill blade wandering that didn't get wiped clean.
BTW, I could really use youe wide sander about now..can I come borrow it?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Planer skip is a good guess for what everyone is assuming is 'tiger-stripe' grain pattern, but the blotchy defect...my bet's still on sticker stain. Yeah... a picture would be nice...lol...I see so much planer skip one moldings and cabinets...ughly! I'm not sure how they get away with selling that at all. My sander's only 24", but talk to VaTom: he had a line on a 48" Timesaver at Internet auction that was bid at less that $2K, last i looked. I need more truck...
Edited 6/20/2008 2:55 pm by splintergroupie
Slight Boo-boo..need to thin these down
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=105995.1
A smidge..lolSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Rout it off. Set up a fluted bit (diameter depends on how much you need to remove) the amount you need taken off, in a router table, ten work the base over it, leaving a few bits at the edge to support it at the right height. Chisel the eensy feet off to finish the job.Not that i ever make such mistakes...You can actually get some snipe with a drum sander, not unlike a planer, on short stock. After i finish my susans and cutting boards to 120 grit, i belt sand them for a final pass with my 4x24 to get the snipe and sander skip out of the drum-sanded surface. The wide-belts that use a platen eliminate this problem. Some wide-belts don't have a platen, just rollers - not much better than my drum, except they run a lot cooler.
Edited 6/20/2008 3:18 pm by splintergroupie
I once sent a premade and well used cuttng board thru a 20" planer...it came back out..backwards, in chunks. It was too short, too narrow and too oiled. Ooops.
I think I can scrub plane most off, then beltsand with a 36 belt to get close. I set the table saw fence and cranked up the blade..and thought of "The wheel in the sky keeps a turning" and thought better of it.
Scrubbing it isSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Table saw!??!!? Jays...you really are crazier than i am...
Told ja so.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Being #2 is just going to make me try harder.
I'm guessing what I've got is sticker stain. Soon as I get my camera working again, I'll post a picture that should help.
I was at a cabinet factory recently that cuts and kiln dries their own wood, so I got to see the stickers first hand. Just didn't know exactly what they were called.
thanks for the info!
You're most welcome. You've been a fine contributor to this site and i'm glad you're getting something back, too.
Thanks!
I've come to rely on you all for the best info! Glad I can provide some, too!
< but it looks more like wane.>
No wane here today, but it's vewwy vewwy hot!
Forrest - a wiot
I concur!!If you want it uniform, thats why they make paint!!or contact paper...But the customer is always right even when they have anal/cranial obstruction disorder...Q for OP did the customers pay a premium for matched grain ???cause maple is maple and wood especially maple will do that.Grain matching standards as a whole are less strict these days because of diminishing availability of premium stuff..boards that used to be burned for heat are making into cabinets and furniture..
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Susie,
Sounds like a whole new type of maple. Call it something like "Black Ribbed Maple" and tell the client it's extra rare and super premium. It's usually more expensive than birdseye maple but you got a great deal on it and passed it on to them.
That's gotta be what the first guy who sold spaulted maple did.
wood is natural and can be mutated sometimes (I think burls are still unexplainable by biologists). All the wood you got with the odd-ball grain pattern probably came from the same tree or small mutant batch of trees.
good luck
gk
Susie
Its hard to say what you have without seeing it but if you spec clear maple then you should be getting clear maple, Not spalted, no defects............ Not sure where tiger/figure maple comes into play in the grading of maple, personally I love the stuff but some people don't.
Clear maple ususally cost more, is the cabinet maker just trying to get by with a little cheaper product?
Doug
Have a feeling that cost-cutting is behind some of it. They may have tried another supplier who's a bit cheaper, but the quality is less.
They have a generic spec in their catalog, but it's not very informative. It's focused on construction and not the individual components or their materials.
I like tiger maple myself, but a little goes a long way for me. Not sure if that's what I have, but I plan to get some pictures to send to the cabinet co so they know what we've been getting. I can't double the moulding order to compensate for that big a variation in grain pattern.
Its sticker stain, very common and runs deep..no fix.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "
Me.
I'm thinking you mean that the product sticker's color (or adhesive?) has leeched into the wood at some point? Hadn't thought of that!
sorry, no, see Colleen's post with a picture at the botom right of the defects shown.
It is a kiln/sawmill defect of tannins leaching from a tannin rich OR fungal contaminant on a sticker or spacer.
The grain undulations in your second query are simply overlooked untill the stain hits it, figured grain like that refract light differntly and also may absorb stain/finish very unpredictably due to it having a higher likely hood being "run out" grain or actually exposed endgrain. A good wood worker could spot it well before finishing stages and deal with it..average factory schmo probably asleep at the wheel, or don't care.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
I think, with the moulding, it's a matter of factory guy not knowing what to look for in the first place. Could be the order picker or the finisher who doesn't know, but after finishing it's pretty obvious. But with lots of unskilled labor with little training, they're probably not stopping it from shipping.
This is a mid-sized, family shop, and my bet is that they're growing a little too fast and rushing things. I'll be sending them a chunk of my striped crown moulding and asking for a refund.
Maple comes in different grades. The best is white and clear, more expensive and harder to get. Other grades may have stains or erratic grain. It's fairly normal in maple and birch. It's not defective, it's just an appearance issue. I would ask the manufacturer about grade options and explain your complaint.
Busy production shops process a lot of lumber by the forklift load. The boards are mixed, different trees, colors and characteristics. Sometimes you get a run of beautiful lumber but the next load may vary a lot. Many shops call themselves "custom" shops but they are far from it. They don't choose each piece for color match and they still make boxes, in assorted sizes, that you attach together. If you have an 8' run of true custom cabinets, it will usually be one 8' cabinet, built specifically for that space. Not a bunch of boxes. It will be more expensive, too. Built one at a time, not on an assembly line. The lumber will be carefully chosen for color and grain match.
Some of your larger companies will have a disclaimer. It states that lumber is not uniform in color and that you will be able to see the individual boards in an assembly. They also state that there may be certain marks or differences in color due to the nature of the species. This has always been an issue in woodworking shops. Attempts are made in the finishing process to blend in the differences but a wild grained piece next to a straight grained one is going to show unless you paint it.
Here are a couple of pictures. One is a typical manufactured kitchen I installed in a showroom. The overall tone and appearance is acceptable but you can see individual boards in the door panels that are different. The other is a custom cabinet I built. Care was taken to choose matching lumber and the grain pattern on the doors was centered. This meant that the face and door frame came from the same board and a couple of inches of the plywood was wasted to center the grain pattern. This simple cabinet would cost twice what a manufactured one would. Both the materials and construction are at a premium level.
When you order a half dozen lengths of molding from a manufacturer, someone goes over to the bin of 400 pieces and pulls out six. At times, you are going to get a piece or two that are real dogs. Either you use them where they don't show as much or you send them back. The same thing happens with a framer or trim carpenter. There are going to be warped studs or different grain patterns in the 2x4s or baseboard. Attentive workers will set these aside and use them for blocking or inside closets. Even when such an attempt is made, two pieces that look identical may take the stain completely differently. That's just the way it is.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I agree whole heartedly.
Also, I try to get the grain centered and balanced such as this.
View ImageSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Every thing folks have said is correct.Hardwood lumber is graded differently than softwood lumber. There is no "clear" grade like C& better pine.Google Hardwood Lumber Grades and study it. Some grades are:FAS -Firsts and seconds. 84% yield depending on the species.FAS 1 Face -Some sapwood and defects on other side.Select and better - This is the most common grade for soft maple. It is the sapwood that is creamy white.Number 1 Common - Used by furniture makers because it is cut in small pieces.Number 2 Common - Good for not much other than concealed locations.Also look into AWI. That diclaimer stated above by Hammer1 is similar to theirs but they include veneers.AWI has 3 grades of millwork. Premium to Economy. Each grade has different allownces for defects.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I completely forgot I have an AWI book...haven't renewed my membership recently.
In looking at the classifications, this line falls mostly in the custom area, by which I mean that not every requirement for that grade is met in every element of the cabinet. You might have economy sides, with custom doors and premium drawers. With every available upgrade, you'd be solidly in the custom classification.
The mfr is after a compatible match in finish, not grain pattern, and they do very well most of the time in both. I've just had some pieces with these odd places that I don't think would pass even in economy grade.
Of course, all mfr's have disclaimers; even with my custom line I advise customers that wood is not like dyed-to-match shoes. You also have to brief everyone on glazes, distressing, painted finishes, natural variations in woods, etc.
Sometimes I think the problem is that the pictures people see in magazines are often custom or high-end manufactured cabinets that they expect to replicate at a semi-custom price. I spend a lot of time educating customers about what to expect for each cabinet line.
Many shops call themselves "custom" shops but they are far from it.
You said it right there! What your cabinet showed was custom, with the grain balanced and carefully placed in the panels. I can't tell you how many times I've had people show me their "custom" cabinets that look like off-the-shelf big box. They've been sold the "made to fit" aspect as though that's all it takes to be custom.
Custom to me is quality in construction, finishing and detail, but that's rarely the benchmark used in this area.
The manufactured cabinet you installed is a bit too varied for me, unless that happens to be hickory? My small mfr is doing better in their matching, and is good for their price point, but I think their quality control is slipping. I do plan to check in with them about that and their grading.
For right now, we just warehouse the extra moulding that's usable so that we can have some backup. The rest we're going to have to return.