I am planning to have my living room, dining room, kitchen and stair hallway repainted before I have my floors refinished. This includes all the ceilings, walls, and woodwork.
I have found a floor refinisher who was referred by a friend and I asked him for suggestions for a painter. He gave me a name of someone (Mike) with whom he has worked before. He mentioned that Mike was not inexpensive, but did good work. That sounded fine.
Mike came here on 2/15 to look at the job and said he would send the estimate to me in the mail. He sounded like he would do an excellent job, but then I didn’t hear from him for 2 weeks.
I called a 2nd painter (Rafael) on 2/25 who came over the same day to look at the job and delivered a wrritten estimate ($2,410) 2 days later. But his recommendations were just “so-so” and since he had a smaller crew, it would take him twice as long to do the work.
I called Mike again on 3/8 and left a message at his office. Then called him again the next day on his cell phone to ask about the estimate, and he did give me a verbal estimate of $5,450. However, I still don’t have anything in writing. I’ve called him twice and he says he’s been too busy to get the estimate in the mail, but is ready to start next week.
So, on 3/9 I contacted a 3rd painter (Edgar). He returned my call the next day and came over that afternoon to look at the job. He said he will have a written estimate in the next day or so and will drop it off at my house. Edgar comes very highly recommended by a friend who is renovating a million-dollar house in Alpine, NJ.
How long should a homeowner wait for a written estimate? If this was someone I had used before, I would probably be fine with a verbal, however, since Mike is $3000 more than Rafael, and I don’t have anything in writing, I’m a little leery to work with Mike. I did tell Mike I needed something in writing before the job begins. I don’t think the $5,000 is out of line, but I want it in writing. Is this unreasonable? If Edgar’s estimate is the same as Mike’s which would you pick?
Timing is critical, since I’ve set a date with the floor guy for April 4th. I don’t want to have to move all my furniture and stuff twice and I want to have a few days for the paint to dry thoroughly before the floor guy starts.
Replies
It would depend on when he promised to deliver it.
Since (perhaps) the first painter did not indicate when he would deliver it, he has not broken any promises.
What he has done though, is give you a good indication of how he runs his business and what value he places in you; his customer.
I'd say he's not doing to good so far.
Perhaps he is an excellent painter though. If you decide to use him, you should ask yourself whether or not you expect him to show up when promised, will he finish the job on time. What if you need him to come back and do a touch up behind the floor guy??
These are things you need to get ironed out and put into writing BEFORE any work starts.
And just my opinion.........I think your schedule is allready in trouble.
Good luck,
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Seems Mike is too busy. That may mean he's very good or just not good at time management. Either way it doesn't help you. If Edger is within budget and can start and finish according to your schedule he's your guy. It also keeps the hiring "within the family." Since he is working for your friend he has 2 jobs depending on his success.
See how Edger's price compares with Rafael's. There's a reason why R's price is cheaper - quality, insurance, availability, experience, labor force. Not a deal breaker but a greater level of assumed risk without firsthand knowledge or a close friend's recommendation.
It is smart that you are sticking to your guns regarding wanting the cost AND scope of work/ specifications in writing. That way there are no misunderstandings later on. Upon further consideration, Mike's not willing to submit his proposal in writing may mean that he is not a by-the-book-painter. Nothing wrong with that but maybe not a good match with you.
Hope this helps,
F
If you know the contractor a verbal is usually good. In your case I would use the verbal to compare but get something in writing before starting.The written bid should include such things as a brief scope of work, starting and finishing times, material (latex/oil), total price plus taxes and so on.
Like Eric said... the first guy isn't interested. The second guy sounds a little on the low side, which could mean he does a quick-n-dirty job and/or he is bidding aggressively to get work. The third guy sounds like the best choice so far. Since a written estimate is important to you--and it is, based on the fact that you posted about it--you will want to deal with someone who delivers one fairly promptly. It is absolutely a good indication of how they will handle the job and the billing.
Whoever does it, have them include in their estimate a return trip to touch up the baseboards after the floor finishers are done.
Thank you all for the feedback. I guess the written estimate is important to me because it gives me an indication of how business-like the contractor is. Around here, (northern New Jersey) usually the contractor who shows up is the one that gets the job. When I was looking for a floor refinisher, I called 4 different contractors and left messages saying I was interested in talking to them about the job. Only one returned my call. Luckily I liked him and he gave me a written estimate on the spot.Do contractors who have submitted estimates expect the homeowner to call them back when a decision has been made? Or do they just assume they have not gotten the job if they don't hear anything? I planned to call them, but I wondered if it was expected.
If they do not hear anything, they will assume they do not have the job. Call them as soon as you have decided.
Please extend them (ALWAYS) the courtesy of declining the bid.
It's just the right thing to do.
Besides, you may call on that contractor again in the future. Do you think he will want to bother with you if you couldn't even make the effort to call him and say thank you but I don't need your sevices at this time, perhaps in the future................
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Cynthia,I am a professional handyman based in the Ridgewood area and work on everything from trim, wainscot, decks, basement finishing, bathrooms, decks...you name it.As you can imagine, I do a lot of estimates in our area. My "niche" is that I return calls the same day and try to get to the estimate the next day. Most projects are not quotable on the spot because I have to research material costs and whatnot.I think I'm a-typical around here, because I realize that customer service is a HUGE selling point for my clients. I show up on time-everytime and get the job done.What kills me is going through sometimes hours of work to prepare a detailed, itemized proposal and never hear back from people. It's common courtesy. Needless to say, I do not follow up with people after I've submitted a proposal because I figure if they are interested, they'll call me. I guess I get a little bitter when I'm going out of my way to be polite and service oriented and the customer doesn't reciprocate any respect for my professionalism.If you have any other questions, feel free to contact me directly since we are in the same vicinity.Greg DiBernardo
FINE HOME IMPROVEMENTS
T: 201-670-0339
C: 201-463-8017
http://www.finehomeimprovements.com
GregI wish I had known about you when I had my basement redone this past summer. I ended up getting a handyman through "The Handyman Connection" who borrowed a lot of my tools. Mine were better than his. Nice guy, but I'm glad it was only the basement where I wasn't that fussy about craftsmanship. I still have more work to do. I have a small powder room that's next on my list. I'll give you a call when I'm ready to tackle that, if that's OK.
Absolutely, Cynthia. You can call me anytime.The guy that did your basement is the professional's worst enemy. My truck is outfitted with at least $20,000 of tools at any given time. I pay liabilty insurance, workers comp, and commercial auto insurance. My bid is always going to be higher than someone who is borrowing your tools, has no insurance....Yet, sometimes people only shop on price. I just wish they'd tell me that BEFORE I go over to do an estimate! :)Also, I hate calling myself a Handyman, because I feel it has a negative connotation attached to it. People feel that a handyman works part time and for peanuts. This is not the case. I am a framer, trim carpenter, drywaller, tiler, door hanger, you name it. It's just that "multi-disciplined quality-oriented tradesman for hire" doesn't quite fit on the truck so well. :)
Just a quick follow-up to say thanks to all for the advice. I did hire Edgar, the third guy, his estimate was $3,650 which was right in the middle. He dropped off the written proposal within a week of our first meeting and promptly returned my call about a start date. He starts next Friday and says it will take him 4 days.The only thing Edgar doesn't do, which Mike the first, most expensive guy said he would do, is install the shoe moldings (quarter-round) in the living room, which had been removed when the carpet was installed. Although I really don't know for sure if Mike would have done the moldings since he never did give me anything in writing.However I decided that's not really a problem since it will probably be better for the floor guy that the moldings are not there. After the floor is done I can get the quarter round and paint it before installing it so I don't mess up my newly finished floor. Does that sound right? This is something I should be able to do myself...except for the fact that I don't own a miter saw.
However I decided that's not really a problem since it will probably be better for the floor guy that the moldings are not there. After the floor is done I can get the quarter round and paint it before installing it so I don't mess up my newly finished floor. Does that sound right?
This is something I should be able to do myself...except for the fact that I don't own a miter saw.
Glad all is working out, and yes, you have the right idea about the shoe.
Likely the floor guy would not want it there.
Also likely the floor guy may install it for you if you ask nicely!!
If you paint it first, which by the way is a good idea, make sure you don't leave paint goobers on the back of the moulding where it contacts the base and the floor.
Good luck,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
.....oh, and that is probably something you could do with just a coping saw.I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Thanks Eric, I do have a coping saw.
I do think a miter saw (hand one) would be a good thing to have for little jobs. I looked at one in HD that came with a saw and a plastic miter box, but it looked pretty crappy. I'm not sure what to look for.
Maybe I'll check out a real tool store.
If I had all the quater round painted and ready to install, maybe the floor guy would do it.
You will want to cope the inside corners, not mitre them.
That crappy plastic thing might work well enough for what you need.I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
The flooring guy will have closer access to the flooring against the wall without the shoe moulding in place. Shoe moulding used to be removed whenever floors were refinished. Now people think it costs too much and since the stain color changes when refinishing, the shoe is painted to match the baseboard instead.Traditionally the shoe moulding is considered as part of the floor. Therefore it should be of the same material and finish as the floor. So, if your floor is oak, pick up some oak shoe moulding, of a style you like, and have it avaiable for the flooring guy. He can then stain it when he stains the floor, so it will be a pretty close color match, and then apply the poly afterwards. He may even be able to install the moulding just before he does the final coat of poly. This way he may not need to come back fo an additional day, just for the shoe. Don't know how big an area you are doing or the size of his crew. It is add'l work and will require add'l time and $.Sounds like Edgar is a Champ! Good Luck.FrankiePS - As for you installing the shoe: It requires coping skills (no pun intended), patience and experince nailing finish nails, maybe even some predrilling to avoid splitting the wood, or a compressor and finish nailer. You're already in for 90 cents, might as well spend the whole dollar and save yourself the installation potential stress.F
Yeah, you're probably right...pay someone and have the job done right. The cost doesn't bother me, it's just that I would like to be able to do some of this stuff myself. Maybe I need someone else's house to practice on first <G>. I knew about coping the inside angles, but I've never actually done it myself. And I don't have a finishing nailer and don't want to get one for this job. I decided to go with painting the molding because that's the way it is in the rest of the house, and I thought the living room should match. I'm not ready to replace ALL the shoe molding. But if I did...what do you do with the molding in the kitchen and bathroom where the floor is tile? What is the correct spelling of that word....molding or moulding? Prospero spell check says molding, but I notice a lot of people use moulding.
"I decided to go with painting the molding because that's the way it is in the rest of the house, and I thought the living room should match. I'm not ready to replace ALL the shoe molding. But if I did...what do you do with the molding in the kitchen and bathroom where the floor is tile?"Sometimes different is good. Having stained moulding in the Living Room would dress it up a bit. I think it's elegant. No need to do it throughout. Just a thought.As for kitchens and baths, if the wall is tiled, smetimes the wall tile is available with a cove detail. Otherwise, if the baseboard is wood, the shoe moulding follows the same finish schedule.As for the spelling of moulding - mould·ing n. Chiefly British Variant of molding.Frankie
Cynthia,Remember me..the NJ guy...I'll tell you what...Contact me and I can install the shoe for you the correct way (coped) and I'll even give you a coping lesson and a tour of a sliding miter saw just for being a Breaktimer.Greg
GregThat sounds great! I will call you as soon as the painters finish. That will probably be around March 30 or 31. Cynthia
Call him before Cynthia ...
we all have schedules to fill and keep ..
and we gotta know which customers are serious.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
>>I've called him twice and he says he's been too busy to get the estimate in the mail, but is ready to start next week.
Its clear to me that mike has the time but just does'nt want to spell out what you are to expect from him.
I know a few contractors who are really good at what they do despite how they handle their business practices'
If you are more comfortable with mike maybe its you who should draw up the contract.
A few random thoughts:
Remember that giving free estimates does not put food on the table for contractors. That said, don't deal with contractors who don't follow through with what they said they would do - be it written estimate or whatever. I hire a lot of (sub) contractors, and like dealing with people who are very competent at what they do, do reasonable quality work, and want my business. Re the quality of work issue, I feel it is better to go look at a contractor's work first hand. What is acceptable to one person may not be to another - be it a million dollar house or not. As far as paint goes, if you hire the least expensive expect to get a job that looks like it. My experience is that with paint jobs, generally, you get what you pay for.
To answer your question directly though, for that type of job, a week is plenty of time to put together an estimate.
Edited 3/12/2005 10:31 am ET by DIRISHINME
Ask the Contractor for a copy of their insurance (proof of insurance). This is made available to everyone who asks'. I would be willing to bet that any professional crew you get will be very similar in the amount of time to get it done. You can also have the contractors give you a max time to get the job done, like finished on 4-20-05 or something.
Get everything in writing, after all, you're the boss... Tell them you want the estimate in 2 days (or whatever time you may need).
GB