Does anyone know how much pressure a 1 lb propane bottle will hold? want to use it to hold air.
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http://www.gizmology.net/dot39.htm
Not a definitive answer but....
First of all, you won't get a whole lot of air into one of those cylinders. What's the application, just out of curiosity?
Second, the propane canisters have a pressure relief valve, which would presumably let go before the pressure built up to a dangerous level.
As an aside, my buddies and I used to use empty freon tanks to hold about 120 psi for inflating our tires at the motocross tracks. And in my early carpentry days, I tried to use the same tank for trim punchout. But there was only enough air for around 40 shots with a small PC stapler, and maybe 15 or 20 with the 15 ga. finish nailer. Not real practical, and dangerous (at least according to the labels).
Keep in mind, too, that compressed air has a LOT of kinetic energy! When a pressurized vessel lets go, it's way more dramatic than if it was full of water at the same pressure.
A few years ago, I ran into an acquaintance in the farm supply store. He had recently lost part of his foot after a homemade air tank exploded in his barn.
Please be careful!
"I tried to use the same tank for trim punchout. But there was only enough air for around 40 shots with a small PC stapler, and maybe 15 or 20 with the 15 ga. finish nailer. Not real practical,"that's exactly my use. As an HO and I'm doing a small repair I may only shoot 5-10 fasteners. dragging around 100' of hose for that is a pain for me. looking for something simpler.someone is selling a small bottle to be filled with CO2 for this purpose but it costs $120. looking for a better way.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Impulse nailer maybe? Those fuel and battery things from people like Pasolode.
the batteries gas will go bad after the first use before the next. at about $10 a pop too expensive. sides I already have some pnumatic fastener guns.looking for parts for a 20lb tank to do this but then thought why not a 1 lb tank.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Why not just buy the portable air tank from wal-mart or HD. Most I've seen run around $30. Come complte with schrader valve, pressure release, and guage. Sure safer than messing around with questionable cylinders and rigging up the parts to get what you want.
gotta agree on using the portable air tank designed for the purpose. They won't enable you to fill a lot of tires, but they might work for this purpose. Harbor Freight: 10 gal, $35; 5 gal, $23http://da.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=air+tank&Submit=Go
>>>>>>>the batteries gas will go bad after the first use before the next.Ok, I'll argue with you over here, too. I've got several paslode guns and I've left the fuel canisters in them unused for months and picked them up and taken right off. The batteries will loose their charge after a while, but I've never noticed much fuel bleed off.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
ok
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
You saying you leave the canisters in the gun and plugged into the inlet or do you remove the canister outlet from that gun inlet?
be making it plain
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
I leave them in the gun ready to go.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
So all you do is pull the battery then and shut the case?
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
I usually don't even pull the battery. I've got some extras that I keep charged.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Your first quote beneath your name looks eerily familiar.
Be where have I seen that before?zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
sounds like one worth repeating.View Image
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
You are one of the few on that. Even the company recognizes that they will do that.
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Even the company recognizes that they will do that.
Were you meaning to include the word 'not' here between will and do?
I can see if I were using it day in and dayout in a constant mode and had no problems leaving it ready to go like that it would be advantagous to do so.
But usually mine gets left alone for lengths of time then broke out for a project so the battery always get removed and the canister pulled from the outlet but left in the gun.
I'd like to leave the battery pulled and still in the gun, but the contacts are so sensitive that a little movement and the battery engages before it snaps into lock.
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
Edited 10/6/2006 12:11 pm ET by rez
Maybe I was not clear. The phone was ringing as I finished typing and hit sendI mean to say that the Paslode company recognizes that the fuel cylinders will sometimes bleed off gas if kept long in storage. They recommend that you store at room temperature and definitely NOT on your dashboard or a similarly hot location. They also recommend that you remove the fuel cell from the gun when storing it. I do not do that, only removing the battery. Too much trouble to remove the cell, and we use them regularly.
The battery will go down quickly when leeft in the gun. well, the old long ones would, I don't know about the new black pairs. I still remove them out of habit, and I have about five of the old ones but only two of the newer ones.Anyway, I have had older fuel cells that werre in the van for a long time that gave only a few shots or even none, when right out of the package, and I have had cells that after using good for a couple hundred shots and then left alone for a few weeks, failed to shoot again. I don't know if they would have been OK had I removed the carburator.A cell that is on its last legs can give me a few more shots if I warm it up in cold weather, but overheating can be dangerous.
I caution all my guys to poke a hole in them before disposing. There is always residual gas left after the pressure is low enuf to not actuate the carburator. There have been a couple times that a use can somehow got into the trash thatr was getting burned. The sound is close the an M-80 but there is shrapnel coming atcha too! My old dog decided that the burn pile was not so interesting anymore once he had torn AL flying an inch over his head whiel the noise was a ringing his old ears and sparks from the burn pile were going every which way. It was all quite a sight. In the interest of sharing facts here, let me note that sionce AL is low mass, the tradjectory was only about twelve feet or so, but that was after plowing its way out of the pile of burning debris. I would not have wanted it to hit me in the gut in the first three feet or so
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hmmm, I'll have to make sure I keep my distance when I try that then:o)
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
That story brought back a memory.... When I was a kid, maybe 11 or 12, one of my jobs was to empty the wastebaskets in the house. One winter day when my parents were out, I decided it woud be nice to get a fire going in the fireplace. So I started with a bunch of paper from the kitchen. The fire was going nicely, so I decided to throw the rest of the waste paper into it (so I didn't have to walk it all the way outside, lol). I dumped the can from my father's office into the blaze, and too late I saw a Ronson butane refill fall wayyy into the back of the firebox. Even at that age I thought trying to fish it out was too risky, so I left it, hoping that it was, truly, empty. About 10 minutes later, when I'd almost forgotten about it, it went off like a grenade. And another 10 minutes later, my father came back.
I remember trying to explain why the house was full of airborne soot. He was NOT amused!! I think that was when he went back to lighting his pipes with matches.
LOL, It's a wonder we're still all alive here in this carbon burning age
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tools of the Trade just had an article on about seven new competitors to the Paslode trimer. A couple of them are battery operated units that sounded impressive. I forget which brands they were, but a search can probably net you the article online
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I've used an 18-guage, Paslode battery/gas nailer now for at least three years. I've carry two batterys, and at least three gas bottles in the case, yet I don't remember changing either of them before a day's steady work is completed.
When I was a volunteer, I used to carry a firefighter's air bottle in a backpack, and ran a Senco trim nailer off a 6-foot hose. Those bottles easily hold enough air for a day's worth of work. They hold, I think, 1800-psi, so they must be filled at a dive shop or fire house equipped with a 2-3500-psi compressor, and you've got to be certified or have a friend that is to fill it. Since firefighters and divers commonly use tools powered by these bottles, there are regulators available to step down the air to a usable 120-psi.
Having said that, I sure appreciate my Paslode. Carrying that bottle around seemed convenient at the time, but nailing without dragging a hose sure is a lot better.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
clear this up for me - if I donate money to my volunteer fire dept for them to buy air pacs so they are better equipt to get in the house and rescue me or my family, there is a good chance that the air tanks will be empty because they got used inappropriately?Just curious
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Piffin,
That's pretty funny. No, the bottles used for tools (like cutting tools) are those that are phased out for use as breathing air packs. The ones that I and at least one another cabinetmaker on the department used were surplus tool bottles that might have otherwise been discarded.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
I was just supposing.I remember what ahppened to the last guy who "borrowed" a ladder off the truck at the VFD
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Yeah, he should have been sent up the non-existing ladder.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
I remember from way back in collige when I took scuba class that you should not mix oil/grease with the compressed air. But why? What happens? Ok, I know it explodes, but why?
And if you have an oil bath compressor, what keeps the oil vapors from getting into the tank?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Pure propane is a pretty safe gas. It needs just the right combination of oxygen mixed with it to be a flamable mixture. i've had two or three personl experiences with what might have seemed ( they did to me at the time) to be scary and dangerous, but proved to be of no account...One - I use to use propane to fire my roofing kettle. Stopping one dau to pick up new 100# tanks, I saw another truck just leaving from the retailer onto a four lane semidivided road. He wasn't too careful about tying the tamk in - maybe forgot to even do it, and he wasn't too careful about how he was driving. Maybe drunk, maybe in a hurry to get back to his job and finish up for the day before his kettle got cold, who knows.But he hit the curb or boiunced over ti pulling out and his tank tippped over. The valve got knocked off and the tank tiook off out of his PU propelled by escaping gas. I think this was about the time I ducked, LOL That tank shot across the pavement of two lanes, hit the center divider and hopped a couple feet into the air agian, then kept going on across the two lanes on the opposite side of the road and into the parking lot of a gas station on the other side, making me hug the ground a little deeper.But it came up against something that brought it to a stop as it ran out of propellant. BTW, propane and butane are used as propellants in most of the aerosole sprays on the market in drug and food stores.second instance, I was fou4r wheeling in the mtns of CO on a tight winding track when a jeep came around the next bend towards me at way too high a speed, driven by an unlicensed fourteen year old. I stopped and threw my shifter into reverse and was just letting off the clutch when he hit me, knocking my truck back 20-30 feet. In the process, I learned what he was hauling in such haste. There had been a 100# propane tanke loose in the back of his jeep. It hit his shoulder pretty hard as it came out and over the hood of his, and spun down in under mine. I shut the motror off as quick as I could and got out but didn't slam my door, in fear of making a spark. Nothing else happened except for giving the kid a piece of my mind after finding out if he needed a trip to the hospital.Third time around...
...shoot I been typing for so long I forget what the 3rd one was. Too much CRS
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What's CRS?
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John RuskinAndrew Clifford of Clifford Renovations, who serves as a steward of our history for future generationsWe can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
can't remember stuffacronymn
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I don't remember ever using "stuff" to complete the acronym :)
I thought it was Cranial Rectinitis SyndromeReal trucks dont have sparkplugs
That's the well documented HUA
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
light weight version of CRAFTS....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Oh yeah -When I was younger, I was on the Volunteer FD for a few years in CO. A residence burned to thje ground in a nearby town. We were called in to assist. On the side of the building were tow propane tanks that every one was concened about.
My assignment was to cover them with a two inch line misting the space they were in. They had been reported to have been turned off before we arrived and the place was so fully engulfed, but you never know.
I did my job. the wall behind them was the last to fall in, and the tanks never blew up, but they still commanded a lot of attention and respect all night long.BTW, the worst house fire I can remeber was one where the lady was an AVON salesperson. cosmetics are full of oils and propellants and highly flamable. The room she used for storage was an upstairs bedroom, in front. Once that window glass was out there was a blue flame like from a torch shooting horizontally 20-40 feet overhead
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The restriction on oil/gas is not for compressed air but oxygen.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Ok. Now explain what happens ...
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I can't explain it other than pure oxygen under pressure + grease = fire. Spontanious combustion. No spark needed. I'll see if I can find a good explanation of exactly what happens.
I did find this in a welding guide
5.17.2.8. Oil or grease shall not be used for lubrication of welding and cutting equipment.
Combustible organic materials, including oil or grease, will burn in the presence of air. However pure oxygen is a powerful oxidiser and these same materials:
may spontaneously ignite in contact with pure oxygen
burn violently in pure oxygen at normal pressure, and
burn explosively in pressurised oxygen. Tom
Douglasville, GA
co2 is what you want for what you want to do... I don't know where you find one but i have about 20...had 200 scraped the others for the alum... they are the same ones we use to use and i guess they still do for coke and beer systems... costs me $10 to swap out at the welding supply store... use a regular welding regulator... i keep one around for fill'n tires.. on grass cut'n days on my zero turn i always have at least one flat... when i have to move a bunch of stuff seems tires are always low... i don't know how many shots you can get out of one... but mine usually last a year and thats with me use'n it also as back up on my mig welder when i run out of argon mix... but i bet you could trim a whole house... think it's 2500psi bt have no idea about volume
p
Since it's only a few nails why not just buy some regular nails and drive them with a hammer? I know it's not cool but then sometimes the old ways never fail in a pinch.
some of the things I need to fix won't stand up to repeated hammering, but a quick shot from a pnumatic gun are OK.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Predrill hole and hammer in the nail then carefully use a nail set.
I'm going to chime in and say buy an air tank too.
I've had one for years and it's perfect for what you want and it's safe.
The tanks are safety rated for more pressure then you're likely to put in.
And as someone else pointed out, they're only $30.
And you'll find lots of ways to use it once you have it.
For example, one air tank makes every gun you own portable...Buic
Edited 10/4/2006 11:36 pm ET by BUIC
This may be more $$ than you were looking to spend (about $120, I think), but here's a product specifically designed for what you're looking to do.
http://www.supplierpipeline.com/jacpac_mm.asp?products=y&workshop=y&jacmorr=y&jacpac=y
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Edited 10/6/2006 2:20 pm ET by Hector45
I have to wonder what a replacement cylinder for that would cost. Or even a refill.
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
I believe the tanks are standard paintball issue.
A quick Google for paintball CO2 tanks turned up prices in the $15 range for a 9oz tank. (That's the standard size for the JacPac system.)
The site claims any paintball shop will refill a tank for about $5.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Not as bad as I thought.And definately worth it for someone who needs something like that for a job. (Where time is money.) Something where the cost is offset by the time savings, etc.
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
that's the unit that started me thinking
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
I was once under the impression that this thread was about to degenerate into ranting, ridicule, name calling, and all that other kiddie stuff adults abhor. I am glad that I was wrong then, and am sure to be wrong again. Credentials were mentioned because one poster- whom I wrongly suspected of being childish- suggested that I had none. He asked, I answered. I have also made very clear when I am offering an opinion, and a fact. I do not KNOW the pressure, nor have I the equipment here to actually measure it. I sort of figured it wasn't very much... and I explained why (I know the pressure inside fire extinguishers, and I know their specs, and have cut apart several (quality control tests)... and I really can't see the disposable propane tanks being of anywhere near as stout a design- especially as they are a "non-ASME" shape. I also know that every year refilling extinguishers results in several deaths. That's not even considering accidents involving higher pressure tanks, such as breathing air or scuba. Mind you, these accidents take place with trained personnel, using the proper equipment, and filling with the proper gas. How much more dangerous must things be when the personnel are unqualified, the equipment is improper, and incompatible gasses are involved? Yet, for my caution, this makes me 'uninformed?' Now, I never made an reference to 'rocket science.' However, IF there were anyone here who was a real engineer, or involved in any way with rockets.... they would have ready access to the ASME |Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code." This is the code that governs such things as propane tanks. I cannot claim to have read the entire ASME code- it occupies literally yards of shelf space- but I would love to see the section that suggests refilling a disposable propane tank with air- no matter how well purged- and defeating the engineered in safety features (incompatible threads, pressure relief valves, etc)- is an acceptable thing to do. Is the proposal being made, by some posters, that all safety designs, all rules, all procedures are so worthless that they can be freely ignored? That is a pretty illogical, irresponsible attitude, if that is the case. As for parts being 'readily available'.... well, again, the manufacturer has no control over what you do. In the past, when I welcomed Soviet defectors to the USA, one of the first things I did was take them to a local magazine stand. The point of this trip was to show the multitude of publications selling items that, if purchased, had a very real chance of getting you prison time. Welcome to the "Free World!" You have, in America, the freedom to do stupid, unsafe, and illegal things. Just because something is sold does not mean it is actually intended for the purpose you choose- or even that is is even legal to own it! What has never been made clear is the purpose for which one would even want to fill a propane tank with air. Nor has it been explained what methods have been taken to ensure that a tank that look like a propane tank, that fits in a propane appliance, will never be able to inject high pressure air into a system containing propane- creating a very dangerous situation. I suggested it before, and I will repeat it here more clearly.... anyone modifying a propane component to handle compressed air is in line for a Darwin Award- for eventually, that person will kill themselves in a manner worthy of ridicule.
You know, I was going to talk about how you are able to make what you say sound so official. When, if anyone actually takes the time to read what you say, it is quickly obvious how vacuous it all is. Instead I think I'll just try to keep this short.Are you a beaurocrat ?I guess I should apologise to you. It seems no one could read what you have read in this thread and still insist on spouting ridiculous blanket assertions, unless they have a reading/learning disability. If that is the case, please do accept my apology.As for childish... You mean like refusing to talk directly to someone, and instead choosing to insult them in the third person... ?Come on dude. You got your feelings hurt early on, and have let that drive you to leave common sense way behind, and instead continue pushing an emotional chicken little assertion of danger. It's like you have stuck your fingers in your ears and continuously yammered "watermelonwatermeolnwatermelonwatermelon" every time there is a response to your posts. Then you come back in and say the same nonsensical things over and over.I give up. There is the possibility of danger in using a propane tank for an air tank. There is a possibility of danger when driving your car. There is a possibility of danger when you are eating a pretzel. There is a possibility of danger if you jump in a lake. There is a possibility of danger just turning on an air compressor. But all of these things are not dangerous if you use common sense about how you do them.As someone else here has said, your emotional, blanket assertions of absolute danger are not only ridiculous on the face of them, they are actually more harmful than the information given on how to safely use a propane tank.I would rather people read here how to do it safely, than to just go off and do it unsafely. Heck, who knows, maybe a life will be saved...Peace.
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
BTW: on the subject of "there is a danger"...I have to wonder if using a propane tank on a barbeque isn't multiples more dangerous than using a purged propane tank for compressed air...But it's ok for Joe Bozon to go out there, kick the tank around, attach the tank haphazardly, and then play with fire not a foot from the tank...
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
There are multiple stories of house fires aused by barbeque machines with propane fuel. So I think we should outlaw them!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Reno,One final post here.About the "emotional" thing...I have been in a position in a thread where it seemed like everyone there was piling on me. I know what that feels like.I don't care who you are, I don't care how steely a disposition you have... In that position, it is extremely difficult not to let your emotions get to you. You would have to be inhuman not to go there at least a bit...Like I said, I have been there. In thinking and considering that, I want to say that if that has happened to you, I am sorry that I have had a part in making you feel that way.I won't delete my posts. That would be immature and deceptive. But I do want to extend a hand of friendship and an apology if you have felt ganged up on.
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
I know this was dumb and should give me a darwin award, Years ago i went on a hunting trip, had a empty propane bottle, a 30.06 rifle, how could i resist so i set up the bottle and shot it, It went 100 feet in the air in a lotta little bits flying around with a very loud boom No not smart
You're right, it was dumb, but while we're on the subject of darwin awards, ...A buddy I used to work with in Texas was raised out in california. I don't know where this happened but he and friends were out and about with a couple BB guns when he was about 12 YO.They found a shotgun shell laying on the ground near a fence. Hunter probably dropped it while climbing through or over.Knowing something of the basics of how a firing pin activates the primer, they set it up on a fence post with the brass facing them and from about 20' back commenced to see who could shoot accurately enough to sset it off. not being as good as they first imagined they eventually ended up about ten or twelve feet away from it. My good buddy was the "winner", so to speak...
They neglected toaccount for the "kick" where every action has an equal and opposite re-action. He told me that when they picked him up off the ground after he came too, they started laughing. He had a circular mark that read " Winchester" and 12GA. on his forehead, mirror imaged.
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Now that's funny! The scariest part is that I can see myself trying something like that when I was a kid.
BILL
Like when I jumped off the roof of our kitchen with Mom's umbrella?Eight year olds sure are stoopid
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You ever wonder how we made it this far?
Just glad I did
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You know what? I don't think that I'd give up any of that stupity if I had it to do again, I think that it helps you grow up in some weird sort of way. It teaches us our limits or something or maybe it teaches us our limits are a little further off than we thought...
You don't know what the pressure is, and can't be bothered to do 5 minutes of research to find out what it is, and you also bring up "ASME", without considering that propane cylinders, being pressure vessels designed for transport, come under a specific ASME code.
You spout opinions that are opinions based on little information and a lot of misinformation.
Hammer and a nailset? Seems to me that way back in the dark ages, I trimmed entire houses that way. <G>Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
This http://quittintime.infopop.cc/ubbthreads/ will give you what you want for very little money. I haven't put one together yet but I'm gonna.
if that's Luka's thread about propane tanks I'm familar with it and am looking for an old style regulator to get the part from.that's what I originally planed to do, then saw the pice on the small bottle thing and thought what about a 1 lb bottle.still plan on doing the 20 lb bottle thing
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
Bob,I gave the new link for the thread, in my reply to Fingers, above.Please note that I have added a schraeder valve to that setup. (Posted a pic in the thread.) Now it can be filled anywhere you can fill a tire.Email me your snail mailing address. I will send you the nipple you need to fit the 20lb tanks. I'll even drill it out before I send it. (They have a tiny tiny hole. I drill that out to 5/16".)=0)The rest of your parts all together, (Not counting a scrap tank), should cost less than 8 dollars. Ten bucks if you count the schraeder valve. Get those at your local hardware, near the pressure tanks and pumps for water. Or even at an auto parts store. I saw two sizes of those less than an hour ago, at my hardware. 1/4" NPT, and 1/8" NPT. (Bottom end size. The part that screws into your hardware.) For less than 3 dollars.As for what the tanks will hold... A 20lb (5 gallons) propane tank is designed for 300 pounds of pressure. As for the 1 pound cans... (I don't have a fitting for that.) The "service pressure" in those tanks is 228 pounds. The test pressure is 286 pounds. It is legal to fill a small tank from a large one. You can even buy fittings for that purpose. If the small tanks would not hold every bit as much pressure as the larger tanks do, then you would not be able to buy those fittings. No one would want the liability...In "real life" -both- tanks would probably go to 500 pounds with no real troubles. I really wouldn't worry about 120 to 150 pounds of pressure in either tank. You'll never get anywhere near enough pressure from a homeowner compressor to even begin to worry about.The only two caveats I have are rust and dents. If your scrap tank has either, do not use it. And you already know how to be sure you have gotten all the propane out.
Come in, she said...
And I'll give ya...
Shelter from the storm !
BTW Bob,I was at the local lumberyard today, and saw a fitting for the one pound bottles.It fit the small propane bottle on one side, and the other side was male 3/8" NPT. It cost $8.66. No, I didn't buy it. ;o) I'm working with the larger bottles. And that offer still stands for the fitting you need. Give me your mailing address and it will be on it's way.
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
Thank you Fingers.
I'd like to note here that that link is to the old forum location. That is only viable for reading. And it will not be viable for long. Probably gone at the end of a month or so.
The new link is...
New Quittintime Propane/air tank link.
Come in, she said...
And I'll give ya...
Shelter from the storm !
BAD IDEA. Propane exists, at room temperatures, very close to it's boiling point. What this means is that there is actually very little pressure in a propane cylinder- maybe 10PSI. There is a pressure relief set not much above that.
Attempting to modify it for other use is quite dangerous- better to smoke in a fireworks factory!
You're kidding, right ?Junkhound and I have been using propane tanks for air, for years. (And many many people other than us.)Far as I know, neither one of us has exploded ourselves yet...Do you leave the tags on your mattresses and pillows ? I can't imagine you do any actual construction work. I mean, with all those dangerously sharp saws and all that, being used...Do you safety strap yourself to the chair you stand on to change a lightbulb ?Ok, so now I'm just kidding with you. But I think you get the point.;o)Tell you what, if the 30 gallon propane tank that I have just set up to be a secondary tank for my compressor, blows up and kills me... I give you permission to say "I told you so, neener neener". Meantime, I'm gonna get some work done.=0)
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
Some added tech info to add to what Jeff said:
IF.. big stupid IF but there really are a lot of DIY that do not think things out and become dangers to themselves and others which is maybe what the previous poster assumes in his safety admonitions....
If one JUST and ONLY JUST runs a propane tank down to 14.7 psi remaining propane pressure and then fills it with air , there WILL BE an explosive mixture in the tank - try it sometime with adequate distance on 4th of July, not as impressive as oxy -acyetelene detonation, but still impressive explosion. You chemists can easily figure the pressure needed for the air to create a 10% over stoichiometric mix for the biggest bang.
Best to do propane tank prep same as the gasoline tank repair route -- fill any hydrocarbon tank with water before any other use, which assures displacement of most of the hydrocarbon.
If really concerned with safety on a propane tank to be used for air, fill with water and drain and then pull a 500 micron or less vacuum for a few hours which will even pull all the propane adsorbed in the steel out, then there is zero risk.
thanks for all the inputthink I'm going to stick with the 20 lb bottle, I have an almost new one I bought just before the switched to the new safety ones, so it is in good shape.being frugal, I hate to waste anything
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
A friend of mine has rigged an old 20 pound for use as an air "pig" to keep the guns running nicely at the far end of a few hundred feet of hose. This has worked with no problem for over 20 years.
The safe way to prove that a particular tank is -- or maybe isn't -- good for a certain pressure is to do a hydrostatic test. This is what my father used to do back in the steam locomotive days testing model boilers.
If you compress air in a tank, or any gas, it stores up a large amount of energy, like winding up a gigantic clock spring. Liquids such as water or hydraulic oil are nearly incompressible, so if a tank full of liquid ruptures at a few hundred PSI, it just pops and stops, very little energy to release. Prior to the failure, pressure is pressure, testing with liquid is exactly the same as testing with gas.
If there are any house movers reading this, you could use your jacking system to do a "Mythbusters" type test on an old propane cylinder. Rig a fitting to it, fill it with oil, hook it up in a catch bucket, and watch carefully to see how much pressure it takes. Pretty much equivalent to any typical hose failure in house moving....
Bottom line, if a tank is in good enough shape for propane, it should be good enough for compressed air at the pressures we typically use. The concern about compressing oxygen from the air into hydrocarbon residues, though, is a real one. So, as Junkhound said, wash it out well.
-- J.S.
Ah, yes, such ridicule, when someone disagrees with your idea. Could you perhaps post an address, for which to send your Darwin Award? You may continue to behave as foolishly as you wish. I will not even try to stop you. Indeed, removing yourself from the gene pool just might be commendable. BUT- I shall not allow your idiocy to go unopposed, so as to mislead the uninformed. Let me, for the sake of clarity, re[eat the reasons why using propane bottles for compressed air is a bad idea:- They are NOT designed to hold any significant pressure; and,
- There is a safety device you would have to defeat. Others have mentioned another very good reason: REAL air tanks are readily available, very affordable, and quite cheap. They also come with all the proper fittings. Another hazard is incorporated when there is even the slightest bit of oil, grease, or propane in a compressed air cylinder: explosion. It doesn't take much. I personally have witnessed such an explosion- the term "hand grenade" comes to mind.
Besides all the good reasons already mentioned not to use propane tanks for air, I seem to recall a warning on the bottles that it's illegal to refill them. Just a hunch here, but that's probably because if you do, you are asking for trouble of the catastrophic variety. Personally, I have enough trouble without asking for more! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike, if it was illegal to refill the bottles, (Of any size), then propane dealers would be crowding our jails, instead of drug dealers.;o)It is not illegal to refill any of the bottles. Not even the small ones. Whether at home, or by a dealer.What IS illegal is to "transport" the small ones after they have been refilled. .....With propane.There is no such restriction on the one gallon, 5 gallon, 7 gallon, 10 gallon, 20, 30, etc, tanks used on rvs, barbeques, etc... The one gallon tank is not a 1 pound tank. The one gallon tank looks like a small version of the 5 gallon and up, tanks. The one pound tank Bob was referring to is the small cylinder type that is typically used on lanterns and torches and such.The "pigs" that you and others are referring to, are not built to the same standards as a propane tank. Once a propane tank is properly purged, it is actually safer to use as an air pig than those cheapos that youse guys are talking about.
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
Actually, a properly drained and evacuated propane tank is SAFER and has a higher margin of safety than "REAL air tanks "
Similar to John's dad, I have and still use about 12ea 5 gal propane tanks in use as air tanks for the last 40 years. NO problems.
DO, HOWEVER, 100% AGREE WITH THE RESIDUE ASPECT - OLD PROPANE TANKS MUST BE PURGED OF HYDROCARBONS BEFORE USE AS AIR TANKS. Filling 100% with water and then drianing has been shown for over a century to be effective with gasoline, works pretty good with propane also. Pulling a relatively hard vacuum for awhile is even better - with a belt driven vacuum pump.
another caveat - DO NOT pull a vacuum with a vacuum cleaner, that can blow up on you, the spark on the motor brushes is sufficient to ignite the residual propane air mix. .....
To illustrate the hazard if a tank is not purged, worst case mixture for propane air is roughly 16:1; thus if one has 14.7 psi absolute left in a propane tank, and adds air to 250 psi total pressure, the remaining propane air mix has the equivalent energy of approximately 500 grains of black powder. 125psi produces only the effect of about 250 grains of powder, as all the air in the tank goes ito the explosion and propane is left that simply burns in the air after the tank ruptures.
Art,Let's address what is a proper "purge"...For those without a vacum pump to pull that hard vacum you talk about... ;o) Here is what I did with a 5 gallon tank...First, fully open the valve, and turn the tank over to sit upside down on it's "collar", and let sit overnight.Then, remove the core from the valve. Anyone who has fixed a kitchen faucet can remove and replace the core of this valve.Trickle water in, until it is completely full.Let that sit for several days.Turn over again, and let it empty of water. Then let it sit there for several days after it empties.Now replace the valve core, and fill the tank with air. I took it up to 120 pounds. With the tank upside down, release the air, and let sit overnight, fully open.Now, with the tank still upside down, fill the tank and release the air a few more times, one right after the other. By the third filling after I finshed all that and was using the tank... I was no longer smelling even a hint of propane when I let the tank sit full of air for a while, then drained it.I also suggest keeping the tank in the upside down position once you start using it. This will eliminate any condensate that may accumulate in the tank. ~~~My 30 gallon tank is permanently set on a rack, upside down. (And strapped to a corner post.) I also just plain removed the valve and replaced it with 3/4" pipe. I then plumbed from there to a "T", with the leg sideways. On the bottom of that tee, I put a 3/4" ball valve. This will drain the tank and any condensate, in a hurry when opened. (So far there has been zero condensate in the tank.)From the front of that tee, I plumbed out to the front of the rack the tank sits on. I put another tee on there. One side is the feed, and the other side is the quick connect to attach my air hose to.I am MUCH more confident of the safety of this setup, than if I had used the other old compressor tank that I have. As you state, once a propane tank is properly purged, it is actually -more- safe than those cheapo "pig" air tanks that you can buy.
Aw, gather round, friends. Why hurry ? Lets all stay a little longer.
Stay all night, stay a little longer. Dance all night, dance a little longer.
Pull off your coat, throw it in the corner.
Don't see why ya don't stay a little longer...
Now, anybody want to talk about inflating tires with propane?? Hint_ topping off a tire's pressure with propane is worse than fully inflated with propane, etc.
How about inflating a tire with oxy-acetylene, that is a real 4th of july bang at just 1 psi!!!!
Reno,First, you ignore actual facts which were already written a few times before you posted, and now a few times after... About the pressure limits for propane tanks. (As well as a few other actual facts.) And you post totally inaccurate "chicken-little" warnings about the end of the world, for anyone who dares to use a propane tank for air.Then, you ignore my statement that I was just kidding you when I replied to you, and instead you chose to find insult. Then, proceeded to intentionally insult me "in return".If you want to be taken seriously, then from now on, take the time to actually read what others are saying, before you reply.Just curious here... What was your name before the switchover to Prospero ?
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
Let's see here. Have you watched anyone filling a propane tank? Propane in a 20 lb tank is in liquid form. Vapour pressure of propane, at 100 deg F, is what, 177 psig? What max ambient temp do you think propane systems are designed for? What safety factor do you think is used?
So what pressure do you think those tanks are designed for? Do you understand propane?
I dare say that your comments are grossly ill informed, and probably far more dangerous than any others in this thread.
I give you permission to say "I told you so, neener neener".
Jeff, I believe the proper usage is
"neener neener neener".
Joe H
Where I grew up, the standalone version was 3 or more "neener"s. But when used to complete a taunt, it was standard to only use two "neener"s.I think we should consult Emily Post on this, for a more definitive answer...;o)
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
You happen to be wrong on this one. You're thinking butane, not propane.
Propane is stored as a saturated liquid under its own vapour pressure: that's about 128 psig at 27 C (80 F) and rises to about 257 psig at 56 C (130 F).
DOT propane cylinders (20 lb barbeque tanks etc.) are designed for at least 300 psig- the maximum allowable working pressure (MAWP) is stamped right on the side of the tank. Their ultimate failure pressure depends on many things, including how old they are.
As to their re-use for compressed air: barbeque tanks are not fitted with condensate drains. They are not really suitable for prolonged use with compressed air, regardless how carefully you clean and fill them, because of the risk of unseen corrosion leading to sudden rupture. I'd rather see someone use one of these than jury-rigging something for themselves out of malleable iron threaded fittings and pipe, or worse still by welding up something out of pipe and plate: . You can buy a portable air pig designed for this purpose for so little money that it's hardly worthwhile.
not fitted with condensate drains
au contraire, mon ami: the condensate drain is the easiest part!
propane tank air cylinders are easily drained of condensate by merely turning them upside down for 2 minutes and releasing some pressure thru a blow gun or such.
junkhound- you're my freakin' hero, dude- don't get me wrong! But not everbody's as smart, informed and resourceful as you are. People don't drain their compressor tanks routinely enough (sh*t- I include myself in that list- those stupid freakin' compressor draincocks are the most worthless POS on the planet!), much less turn over their converted propane cylinders to drain them. I was just putting out the warning to those not in the know!
Yep, yu are right. A good separate thread would be to ask "when did you last drain your compressor?"
Molten,Go to your hardware and get some 1/4" fittings.A couple nipples of various sizes, an elbow, etc. And a 1/4" ball valve. (Yes, they make them that small.Now, remove that cheapo piece of crap petcock that comes standard on all air compressors, and plumb from there with your fittings, out toward the "front" of your air compressor. Basically you want to get this within easy reach without having to tip the compressor back, or having to get "down there with it".Now put that ball valve on the end. Now, every time you are finished with the compressor, flipping that ball valve open to drain the tank and any condensate that might have accumulated, is as easy as flipping off a light switch.
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
Now, every time you are finished with the compressor, flipping that ball valve open to drain the tank and any condensate that might have accumulated, is as easy as flipping off a light switch.
That is so simple,I am embarrassed to admit I never even came close to thinking of it .
ALL HAIL LUKA !!!!!
Actually, I didn't come close to thinking of it either.It was pretty much just a dusgusted reaction. No thought necessary. LOLI have always hated those petcocks. Even when the only place I had to deal with them was on a radiator. They are cheap, they break too easily, and they become stuck/worse than useless, even easier. Also, I have had to deal with some that turn the opposite direction of most, to open or shut. So, when dealing with one that I have not dealt with before, I am never sure whether I am trying to turn it open or closed.Years ago, when I was on the job, someone broke the petcock on my compressor. Just the week before, I had had to deal with a stuck petcock on someone else's compressor.Mine got pretty much broken off. No way to get it open or anything. When I took what was left, off of the tank... I was so disgusted with those cheap crappy things that I was ready to just put a plug in there. Of course, when I looked at the threaded hole, and my brain started the search for the right plug... (The brain starts the search long before the body does. LOL) Putting in an elbow and plumbing it to the side of the tank for easier reach, just kind of plumbed itself, in my mind. I didn't think about it, it was just kinda "there" all of a sudden.I was still gonna put a plug in. Just get it out to where I could reach it with pliers, is all I was thinking.When my body finally followed my brain into the shed, I saw the ball valve sitting there and the bells started ringing.;o)What I have on the current compressor is an 1/8" ball valve. I had one laying around, and didn't have a 1/4"... I'll take a pic later tonight, or sometime tomorrow. The line from the tank, is lower at the ball valve than at the tank. Like running a drain line or gutter.BTW: You can get really cheap ball valves at Harbor Freight. I wouldn't use them for home plumbing, because the metal they are made of contains enough lead to require one of those cancer stickers in California. But they work great for air plumbing.
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
I just had a brainstorm. Get your raincoat out!seems to me that there must be some way you could use your air supply to rig some sort of alarm that would scare the beejesus out of any intruders without damaging them. You still have those spooky neighbors, don't you?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Those spooky neighbors have left me pretty much alone since two things happened.1. After I got those sliding bolt locks made on the shop, and locked everything up, someone tried to break the door in. (Probably broke a foot trying. LOL) I went out with a flashlight and shotgun, and I am pretty sure they were still around to see me. I figure seeing the shotgun was enough. They decided they didn't want to find out if I would actually use it.2. After that, the cops finally came out here and did a major bust. Just about everyone there left in handcuffs. (And was back the same day or the next...) All the other neighbors were either hiding, or standing a block away in clumps, whispering. I walked right up there to the cops and gave them information, right in front of the people being arrested. Looked the perps square in the eye, too. Let them know I wasn't afraid of them.~~~All that said, I have been working quite late, lately. I have discovered there is some unsavory character/s that come down this road every night, walking, at about 2 to 3 am.Last night, they actually came up on the property. No doubt to see what I was making all the noise for. I sent Kona out there. She went out barking and growling, until she got to them, then she got real quiet, and hung out out there with them for a while. Traitor !! LOL (They probably gave her a bisquit.)
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
Woody,
I have a couple of pics of my ball valve setup, here...
Rattlesnake, oh rattlesnake what makes your teeth so white ?
I been livin' in the bottom all my life an' I ain't done nuttin but bite...
I ain't done nuttin but bite.
Luka: what you're purging through most of your process is just the mercaptan stenching agent in the gas. The gas itself is long gone after your water fill. The metal isn't porous enough to contain much of a gas that boils well below room temperature, but it's more than porous enough to adsorb a fair bit of a mercaptan that's detectable by the nose at a few parts per billion.
After your first water fill, do the next one with a little drugstore peroxide mixed in. Let it sit for a few days, drain and re-fill with water, drain and dry. The peroxide will take the stink away by reacting with the mercaptan.
I had a Swagelok needle valve mounted on the drain half coupling for a bit, which worked great but stuck out too far and was too vulnerable to being broken off when I dragged the compressor around from place to place- it's a little 15A oilless b*stard on wheels. I'd be scared of the same thing with the close nipple and elbow. I think I'll put a Legris swivel elbow on there- much lower profile and less danger of snapping the sucker off. If you've never messed with Legris fittings before, have a look- they're the cat's @ss for use with air actuators etc.
Steineke's got a point and wants to protect people by raising the alarm, but doesn't know the facts well enough. Propane barbeque cylinders are generally designed in accordance with US Department of Transportation (DOT) rules. Some of them are also ASME UM stamped ("unfired, miniature" pressure vessels, mass produced to a standard design), whereas many "air pigs" up to about 15 gallons are neither designed nor fabricated to ASME- they fall under an exemption due to the comparatively small hazard they represent. Note that this is a small but not negligible hazard- people are killed or seriously injured by rupturing air cylinders on a weekly or monthly basis.
The barbeque cylinders are designed for their duty the same way that soda syrup containers are designed for use with CO2 etc. The little disposable propane torch b@stards are built to some industrial standard which is not ASME- they're not subject to ASME pressure vessel rules because they're below 600 psig, below 6" ID, below 1.5 cubic feet and do not contain something immediately dangerous to life and health if released in small quantities (i.e. propane isn't toxic like phosgene etc.). And they're not DOT containers either to my knowledge- they're not intended for use on vehicles of any kind. They're rather like every spray bomb of crap on the hardware store shelves- intended to be disposable and not intended for re-filling and re-use. They're made of very thin material which is very susceptible to corrosion from the inside out- not something you'd need to worry about with dry propane in them.
As to your tagline- that's from a beautiful song by Jane Sibbery, from a beautiful CD that took her over four years to make- her master work in my opinion. She says, "walk me through this one, don't leave me alone!" and ultimately, "'cause we're not sure how this goes". Never were truer words spoken. Sends shivers down my spine every time I hear it!
Mercaptin. I actually suspected as much. I'll remember that advice about the peroxide.I almost suggested that the remaining smell didn't actually mean remaining gas. And almost asked for an opinion. But I felt things had gone all lopsided here, and I didn't want Reno to feel like he had to continue defending his point.And yes, he does have a point. I said as much. However he blew that point way out of proportion and then felt he had to keep defending it, no matter how ridiculously out of proportion it had gotten. There is as much danger in using a properly purged propane tank that is in good condition, as there is in driving a car without a helmet. (Who knows if or when you will ever be in a car crash in which a helmet would have saved your life ? But who would deny that the danger of being in a car crash in which a helmet could save your life, could occur ???) But Reno had put the danger in the form of immediate, absolute and unavoidable.I don't think I would have used a small propane cylinder for this use anyway. Just something about those small cannisters give me the heebie jeebies even using them for lanterns and torches. But they -are- DOT containers. Look at the label on one. You will see that they are DOT39. However, DOT39 is vauge. The metal used, only has to barely meet the standards for the pressure the tank will hold. The tanks are not heat treated. (But, holding up to 286 pounds of pressure puts it well within the limits for an ordinary air compressor that only does up to 150 pounds of pressure...)A quote from the link given early in this thread... "As a result of the manufacturing process, the metal that tanks are made from is work-hardened and brittle. Heat treatment softens the metal and restores it's elasticity. Without this elasticity, the metal won't "give" and distribute loads evenly, instead concentrating them around flaws in the metal, dents, scratches, crappy welds, rust spots, or sharp bends. These high load concentrations fatigue the metal greatly - and more important, unpredictably - making reuse of a DOT 39 tank a gamble."I know someone like Art could properly purge one of those small cannisters, then evenly heat treat it himself. Thereby making it safer to re-use. But why go to that kind of trouble over a tiny cylinder when so many of the larger safer tanks are available free ? =0)All that said... I have a small tank that is used as a re-useable spray paint can. It replaces those rattlecan "bombs" you refer to. It has a screw on lid that holds the "straw" that goes to the bottom of the can, and on top... the spray button itself. You unscrew the top, pour in the properly thinned paint, replace the top, then use a shrader valve near the top, to fill it with air pressure from your air compressor.That thing might be more dangerous than the "bombs" that you get from the hardware, but it is considered safe enough to be legal, and easily purchased. I'm pretty sure it doesn't even meet the DOT39 standards...~~~The ball valve... The first time I did that, mine got broken off as well. I re-routed it to hug the tank and end up by the wheel. (Not aimed at the tire, of course. LOL)~~~Look at this... A transparent propane cylinder !http://litecylinder.com/interior_20_cylinder.htmlSlainte !
Rattlesnake, oh rattlesnake what makes your teeth so white ?
I been livin' in the bottom all my life an' I ain't done nuttin but bite...
I ain't done nuttin but bite.
i wonder , how the propane dealer would fill that -- by sight , by weight(like they do now) or with a metered pump?
My propane dealer uses a metered pump.Regardless, you'll not see any of those transparent propane tanks around my place any time soon. And not because they cost a hundred dollars a pop.I don't care that they have been used in europe for a long time already. They just give me the heebies.
Rattlesnake, oh rattlesnake what makes your teeth so white ?
I been livin' in the bottom all my life an' I ain't done nuttin but bite...
I ain't done nuttin but bite.
P.S. I tried to find that CD at my library. They don't have it.=0(
Rattlesnake, oh rattlesnake what makes your teeth so white ?
I been livin' in the bottom all my life an' I ain't done nuttin but bite...
I ain't done nuttin but bite.
Luka: she has a web store, but unfortunately the music from "When I was a Boy" (the CD you want) is no longer available there due to "licensing restrictions". Too bad- everything she owns the rights to outright, you can download there and pay what you feel like- including accepting it as a "gift from Jane". She's an odd bird, but she's written some awe-inspiring music.
I'd probably be famous now, if I wasn't such a good waitress!
Yep, that's a famous one. Former waitress and a degree in microbiology...and now she's ditched all her posessions and changed her name to "Issa"- strange bird, that.
I went to see her in Halifax, must have been about '82 or '83; two days later, I saw them again in Fredericton. I stood in line to have her autograph her album, and then told her that I'd seen her in Halifax two days before. She turned to the band and said, "Hey, we got our first groupie!".
Unfortunately, that is the cd that I want !
Aw, gather round, friends. Why hurry ? Lets all stay a little longer.
Stay all night, stay a little longer. Dance all night, dance a little longer.
Pull off your coat, throw it in the corner.
Don't see why ya don't stay a little longer...
10.99 at amazon.com, assuming they have stock available.
Coolio !Thanks !!=0)
Aw, gather round, friends. Why hurry ? Lets all stay a little longer.
Stay all night, stay a little longer. Dance all night, dance a little longer.
Pull off your coat, throw it in the corner.
Don't see why ya don't stay a little longer...
For a moment there, I thought that someone was getting insulting.... however, I accept their reply that all was in good cheer, and no insult was intended.
I still believe... and make no mistake of this... that attempting to use any propane tank, and in particular a disposable one, as an air tank is extremely foolish. I don't care how often this has been done by how many, or what the technical specs may be.
Indeed, a review of technical specs can lead to a serious mis-understanding. For example, many times lab tests are used to establish 'safety' margins. Now, just because something is made of a material that, according to a calculator, will hold a given load does not mean it really will!
Design margins and 'safety factors' exist because experience has shown that the textbook figure is not reliable. Sure, it can be validated under lab conditions, but fails to account for very real imperfections in the real world. Forces may be applied in an uneven manner, materials and construction may be flawed, shapes may be imperfect, corrosion and damage do occur, etc.
Or, let's put it this way.... would you use a parachute that was designed to exactly hold your weight, with no 'safety margin?'
Now, it is fair to question my opinions, and ask what I base them upon.
First of all, I have not been doing construction work, on a job site, since.... an hour ago. Not supervising, planning, designing.... actually up on the ladder, crawling inside the ceiling, swinging the wrench, cutting the pipe.
I hold a number of professional licenses, and belong to some industry, trade, or professional groups. I have been directly responsible for a few of the words found in some common codes and standards.
Apart from my trade status, I have some serious engineer schooling, and have worked for some research or testing groups- in a testing position. I have also been to various specialty schools, in subjects such as gas liquefaction, fire response, and demolition.
I admit that I do not know the actual pressure of propane in it's tank, at room pressure. But over 100 PSI? I find that difficult to accept, as disposable propane tanks are not anywhere near as stout as even the smallest fire extinguisher- which is usually pressurized near 100 PSI.
Even so, every year there are numerous serious injuries, and fatalities, among those who recharge fire extinguishers. When you consider these are trained folks, using the proper equipment, putting the right stuff in the tank.... well, you begin to see the danger.
Personal experiences, that will underscore the power you're playing with:
- An ordinary 2 liter bottle of soda, falling onto it's cap from perhaps 12 ft, had the cap break off- and rocketed the length of a large store;
- A pipe cap under hydraulic pressure breaking free- and penetrating 4" of oak; and,
- an ordinary 30 gal water heater, with safeties disabled, rupturing, and flying well over 100 yards (as far as we had pre-measured) under nothing but "water" power.
As far as the effects of concentration and pressure on what will happen. there are two things to remember:
- the only difference between a 'fire' and an 'explosion' is how fast the flame moves. Gunpowder, sitting in the open, simply fizzles. Contain the gasses - raise the pressure- and the flame moves so fast it goes "boom" instead; and,
An ordinary mouse, dipped in liquid oxygen, then tossed against a block wall, was quite able to punch a man-sized hole in that wall. Again, personally witnessed.
Whether ordinary air, or pure oxygen.... whether grease, oil, or propane... put them together under pressure, and you get a 'boom.' And it doesn't always require a spark.
Now, while we're looking at those spec sheets.... ever notice that different things have different fittings? For some reason, threads are deliberately different, and parts are not interchangeable. Yet, they all follow ANSI specs.
Might this be because bad things WILL happen if you mix equipment?
If you want to 'recycle' a propane tank, send it to a scrap yard.
If, instead, you want to make things go "boom," well, Uncle Sam want to talk to you.
As for all your "purging" methods...yes, they are fine- in theory. Yet, again, every year a few folks get to meet St. Peter because the tank they were welding / cutting / crushing wasn't as perfectly purged as they had thought.
It is completely reckless to toss aside proven procedures, defeat safeguards, and ignore experience on a casual whim. It is simply criminal to encourage others to do so.
An ordinary mouse, dipped in liquid oxygen
Thanks, but, now who is giving who good/bad/dangerous ideas?? Have done similar with a piece of bituminous derived coke, never thought of using a mouse. Would assume it helps to dehydrate the mouse in a vacuum first??? Dont think the computer mouse would absob enough O2 for a good detonation. Wasn't it Linde in the 1890s first proposed powered coal and liquid O2 in place of dynamite?
Using a mouse, we can get PETA all pissed at the same time <G>
anybody want a pix posted of the mouse test tomorrow?? Oh, wait, the grandkids wont be over till Sunday.
Grandkids, shmandkids !You got lots of "kids" here who now want to see pics of this !!!
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
Airco isnt open till 7 AM Monday morning, so will have to wait another week - need to catch a mouse first too!
You can probably throw a N2 soaked mouse (liquid N2 is lots cheaper than O2) at a brick wall and break it into nice size pieces forthe crows also.
Yeah, I'll go out back right now, and tap that bottle of liquid nitrogen I have sitting out there just doing nothing. You know, the one right next to the gold plated skyhook...;o)Man, the toys a rocket scientist gets to play with !=0)
callin all angels
callin all angels
walk me through this world
don't leave me all alone
This gets more interesting all the time, but I'm scratching my morning head tryig to figure out what the mouse has to do with the propane tanks, other than maybe to state that things can go boom that most of us would not expect to.Unexpected consequnces are a warning worth thinking about. Three astronauts died because ofthe pure O2 in that capsule on the launch pad.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
View Image
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin Laminate is just a picture of hardwood printed on countertop for your floor.We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
Well, if you can dehydrate him/her first, send it along in the mail <G?> and will try an O2 incineration with pix.
View Image
"there's enough for everyone"
well behaved and mild mannered mouse,,,
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I was posting photos a few years ago that I had re- worked/edited to be as washed out as that. This is the second such I have seen from you when the original was fine. It turned out that my monitor was going out so they displayed very dark on my machine, leading me to edit all the life out of them. Wife ccomplained that they printed all washed out too. check your monitor settings, turn up the brightness on it, and start pricing neww ones
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
thanks, if you check back to 79606.86 you'll see that I took rez's 'what is it' pict and lightened it enough to display -
or are you saying that .86 is displaying just fine for you? doesn't look dark? brightness was set on '0' here - I bumped it up to '50'- rez's pict is still basically a silloette - lower brightness is easier on my eyes - I'd agree that this old monitor could be less than perfect - but it is CRT....
hmmm.... might explain a few things -
hmmm.... I have worked picts in a couple of other threads (Mike Smith's and Sphere's) that displayed very dark to me...
hmmm....most picts here and elsewhere look good -
hmmm.... I just lightned a pict of my daughter she posted elsewhere and sent it back - the rest of the picts on that page looked pretty good http://www.edoud.fotopic.net/c1104031.html
thanks, Paul - I'll do a little more checking before I start adjusting other people's photos anymore -
"there's enough for everyone"
Well, now, ya know what's funny -
.86 displayed just fine on my desktop moniutor, but on this laptop, it does look dark. The other one in here displayed fine for me before. I'll have to go check it out. I got advice from somebody here when mine was going bad that I was posting faint wshed out photos back then and it was the combination of that comment with DWs complaint that made me look deeper and finally replace my monitor...All of Emma's came out fine here too on the laptop. Especially enjoyed the one with the hardhat guy doing his own videogrphy!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
.086 was one of several pics I took, that particular one without a flash since the flash at that close range was washing out the features.
But it seemed appropriate for the time and a 'what is it?' title.
Little knowing the ease that you 'puter gurus can isolate, analyze and complete a solution. Must be that builder's blood coming full circle.
Maybe now it's time to build the seesaw trap on an empty 5gal drywall bucket.
Best you'all be ready for mass annihilation pics.
bee pollenbe ready
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin Laminate is just a picture of hardwood printed on countertop for your floor.We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
Edited 10/8/2006 10:08 am ET by rez
bee caffienated!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Nope, no more caffine for a long time.
be dee cafe
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin Laminate is just a picture of hardwood printed on countertop for your floor.We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
The mouse pic was really dark on my screen as well.I had to save it to desktop, and lighten the gamma to see what it was.
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
Eat more carrots, man! LOLI could see what it was fine on both screens, but it was on the dark side with one of them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOLI really SHOULD be eating more carrots...=0)
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
http://calsun.canoe.ca/News/World/2006/10/07/1970922-sun.html or
http://ww2.wpri.com/Global/story.asp?S=5509043
Carrot juice with botulin linked to another illness
TAMPA, Fla. A woman paralyzed in Tampa, Florida, is believed the fourth victim of carrot juice containing botulism toxin.Investigators say the woman has been unresponsive and hospitalized since mid-September. Three people in Georgia are reportedly still on ventilators since drinking the bottled carrot juice a month ago.
The juice was made by Bolthouse Farms of Atlanta, and was distributed nationwide. It had a use-by date of November eleventh or earlier. A voluntary recall was announced last week.
The juice was sold under the names "Bolt House Farms 100% Carrot Juice," "Earthbound Farm Organic Carrot Juice," and "President's Choice Organics 100% Pure Carrot Juice."
The Food and Drug Administration says the carrot juice may have been improperly handled after purchase. But it's also looking into other possible causes.
On the Web: http://www.bolthouse.com
be first Popeye and now Bugs, who's going to be next
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin Laminate is just a picture of hardwood printed on countertop for your floor.We can imagine something that only exists in our heads, in a form that has no measurable, tangible reality, and make it actually occur in the real world. Where there was nothing, now there is something.Forrest - makin' magic every day
I wouldn't have bought the juice anyway.Doc says any juice is the same as pure sugar. All the "masticating" is already done. The juice may not actually be pure sugar or even have sugar in it. But your body will turn it into glucose immediately. You need both the exercise of chewing it up, and the fiber.I'm much better off chewing on the carrots...But I do need to be getting some carrots and celery for those snack urges. Glad I've been reminded.=0)
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
be like BugsDIY carrot juice!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yup. It's DIY carrot juice by the time it hits the gullet.;o)
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
I'm now looking at .86 on my desktop and it is definitely lighter on the display than on my laptop. very interesting overall.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've wondered about prospero in regards to photos - I look back to 910.1 in the sandbox where I was seeing if everything would fit without truncating, and the photo displayed is a lot darker than when I posted - I go to my file of that pict (which was pulled off a video) and you can see the people behind her clearly -
if I print that post, the photos print out like I posted and not like they appear on the monitor -
anyway, thanks again - I've been doing a lot of scanning and adjusting of old photos and I've never even considered that the monitor might not be accurately reflecting my manipulations -
"there's enough for everyone"
David --
Before you replace the monitor, first see if it can be adjusted to look right. Here's how we do it in the TV business:
http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm
You need a computer equivalent. This is one that I found on Google for somebody in another thread:
http://www.pawprint.net/designresources/monitorcalibration.php
You always want to check that the monitor is correctly adjusted before you use PhotoShop to change pictures around.
-- J.S.
thanks, John -
the 'quick and dirty' indicates my monitor is working satisfactorally -
tho I'm still turning the brightness down for general work, that being easier on my eyes -
still feeling a little 'duh', not considering monitor performance during all that photo work -
fortunately my experience with the scanned/adjusted images used for projection is that they are just fine -
it is amazing the details that can be pulled out of these old photos -
"there's enough for everyone"
Thank you John.My monitor actually does look a lot better now. The original mouse picture is still quite dark, but it is more recognizeable as the mouse it is.
Rattlesnake, oh rattlesnake what makes your teeth so white ?
I been livin' in the bottom all my life an' I ain't done nuttin but bite...
I ain't done nuttin but bite.
A mouse? Quite right.... just stating the facts. FWIW, the instructor who did this -using a mouse that moments before had been scampering about just fine- was immediately transferred to a post where it sure felt like the air would liquify at 'room' temperature. Uninformed? Perhaps. Yet I have already described my qualifications- which are, I believe, a bit beyond a little back yard tinkering. I've got the training, education, and relevant job experience... with the folks who write the rules. But- so what? What part of "fine left hand thread" makes you think it's intended to be connected to standard plumbing? Perhaps the stuff is deliberately manufactured so as to prevent what you are trying to do? Maybe there's a reason for all this effort? Don't you think the makers would love to save money by using standard tooling? Opinions are like fingers; most of us have a handful of them. Mine are also backed by data, engineering practices, and personal experience. Remove me from the equation, and the facts still remain. No amount of hillbilly engineering will change the facts, either. Propane cylinders, even little disposable ones, hurt folks every year who are using them improperly. Consider the risks if used incorrectly. Standards exist for a reason- and one of them is to prevent your friends from consoling your widow in a manner which you might not approve :) I'll not let this idiocy be presented unopposed. Period. Air into any propane tank, however cleaned or purged, is simply dangerous.
What you said:"A mouse? Quite right.... just stating the facts. FWIW, the instructor who did this -using a mouse that moments before had been scampering about just fine- was immediately transferred to a post where it sure felt like the air would liquify at 'room' temperature.Uninformed? Perhaps. Yet I have already described my qualifications- which are, I believe, a bit beyond a little back yard tinkering. I've got the training, education, and relevant job experience... with the folks who write the rules.But- so what? What part of "fine left hand thread" makes you think it's intended to be connected to standard plumbing? Perhaps the stuff is deliberately manufactured so as to prevent what you are trying to do? Maybe there's a reason for all this effort? Don't you think the makers would love to save money by using standard tooling?Opinions are like fingers; most of us have a handful of them. Mine are also backed by data, engineering practices, and personal experience. Remove me from the equation, and the facts still remain. No amount of hillbilly engineering will change the facts, either.
Propane cylinders, even little disposable ones, hurt folks every year who are using them improperly. Consider the risks if used incorrectly. Standards exist for a reason- and one of them is to prevent your friends from consoling your widow in a manner which you might not approve :)I'll not let this idiocy be presented unopposed. Period. Air into any propane tank, however cleaned or purged, is simply dangerous."
What everyone heard:"Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah".
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
http://grantlogan.net/
Maybe that's what you heard, but I only heard the first line of blah's and then I stopped listening.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Reno, Using your unfounded logic, it is unsafe to reuse one of those big plastic McDonalds cups.You have not given us one bit of fact to back up your claim that "Air into any propane tank, however cleaned or purged, is simply dangerous." In fact, the "facts" that you have given, have been incorrect. Waitaminnnit... You mean you have all this education, and you have all these credentials... and you thought that propane tanks only held ten pounds of pressure ??? You didn't even know that a filled propane tank sits there at pressures ranging from 170 to nearly 290 pounds ??? Or that they are pressure tested to nearly 290 pounds...All you have done is to point out your "credentials", and to spout your opinion that what we are doing is unsafe. As if the credentials mean more than the facts. You have, in fact, soiled your own credentials by presenting fallacious facts.Spouting inflammatory statements like "idiocy", "darwin awards", and "Hillbilly engineering" while ignoring actual facts that are presented to you, only makes you look dirty. And makes one wonder what your real intentions are. "Only a "professional" knows what they are doing, Everyone else is going to kill themselves, and maybe someone else". (Like we all haven't heard THAT before, in our professions...)If you want to compare credentials, compare credentials with Junkhound. I don't call him a rocket scientist just because he's smart...No one has to hold a degree to know that if you wash out that McDonalds cup, you can reuse it. And you don't HAVE to take it back to McDonalds to get it refilled. You can do so at your own kitchen sink.A properly purged propane tank is more safe than a cheapo "pig" designed for compressed air storage.A tank purged the way I have described, IS properly purged. If no shortcuts are taken.There actually has to be enough propane in that tank to mix with the right amount of oxygen in the air that is pumped into it... to make an explosive mixture. It is not easy to get that mix right... even if you are TRYING.What may possibly be left in the pores of the metal after that purging is NOT enough to create an explosive mixture if the tank is used normally. You'd have to pretty much pull a hard vacume on the thing, like Art talks about. Collect the hydrocarbons you could scavenge in that hard vacume, then mix that with exactly the right amount of air, to get an explosive mixture. It simply isn't going to happen if the tank was properly purged, and is used as a pig.If it were illegal or dangerous to reuse a propane bottle for other purposes, the fittings that adapt those left hand fine threads to standard NPT, would not be readily and cheaply available in every corner hardware, feed store, and RV shop. They would be sitting on the warehouse shelves next to lawn darts and clackers.Those fittings have been available for pretty much as long as the tanks with special threads have been in existance. In our litigious society, they would not remain on the shelves for more than a couple years if it were truly dangerous to use them.
No one has to hold a degree to know that if you wash out that McDonalds cup,
You wash yers out ? Huh..... I do only if it was used as a porta potty =)
Actually, every month or two, I buy a 1 liter soda or water of some kind. Then that bottle becomes my drinking utensil until the next one is purchased.One of the "perks" of bachelorhood, dontchaknow...;o)It is less likely to spill, and the lid keeps the flying bugs away from the drinking surface between swigs.Just like needing only one fork, one spoon, one pan. Eating straight from the pan. And only having to clean the pan when you want to cook something again. he he heCleaning can be done once a year with a shop vac and a snowblower.You buy tons of extra jeans, just so you can put off the laundry as long as possible. (10 dollars a pair. Brand new. At the lumberyard. Just bought another pair on thursday.)Oh, hey, you can stretch that time out as well, by going nekkid as often as possible. Well... you gotta be a hermit way out in the woods as well as a bachelor to get by with that one.Reminds me. I need to clean out the sink. It's about time to do a sinkful of dirty underwear. And maybe some socks..........;o)
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
I was OK reading that post until I got to the nekkid part
that must keep a lot of unexpected visitors away.
It certainly does.So does being surrounded by so much junk that people are afraid to walk through it. Well at least the latter keeps the non-criminal type out. The criminals just poke through the junk for something to steal. LOLLast couple of years I have hated having company, less and less. I always get dressed when I get up now. I have been cleaning up the junk. The driveway is actually accessible to anyone that wants to climb it by foot or vehicle. Etc...And I've gotten more and more unexpected visitors. ......The majority of them wanting something from me. LOL
should I seek professional help ;) ~MisterT '06
>> And only having to clean the pan when you want to cook something again.And then only if it's something where the flavors would really clash.
Or if mold has started to develop.
Rattlesnake, oh rattlesnake what makes your teeth so white ?
I been livin' in the bottom all my life an' I ain't done nuttin but bite...
I ain't done nuttin but bite.
Buy a used scuba tank - air fills are only about $10 and that's 3000psi - That should last you a long time. You can buy the fitting you need to convert to an air tool fitting. The only down side is that you might have to get yourself certified to get air fills, although some welding shops will fill these tanks without being a certified diver. Two plusses - the air is 100% dry so your tools will probably last longer - also, you can get small, pony tanks that are very portable and light - if you wanted you could probably even get a harness for one of the small tanks and a small hose if you wanted to be totally portable
Hey, maybe this'll put this thread to bed:
http://www.specialtytools.com/cgi-bin/web_store/web_store.cgi?page=misc_tools/quick_strike.html
Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
maybe this'll put this thread to bed:
Off on another tanget, re:
COMPLETE KIT $ 199.99 INCLUDES: 20 OZ TANK,
For you guys in the 38% tax bracket who can list it as a business expense, maybe if used every few days, but for the rest of us 'poor folks', that is a mighty steep price (euiv to 100 six packs of generic beer for crying out loud!!) for what you would get converting an old fire extinguisher ..... OOPS, another tangent yet...wont start that .............<G>
When I first scuba dove, off Okinawa in 1965, I breathed air from a converted fire extinguisher on my back. It'd been sand blasted and "tested," but I used that bottle for almost three months, until I could afford a real one.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
yeah, beer and gunpowder, I mean, propane don't mix
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!