11 yards +/- ,two guys bank pour footing
dockelly
| Posted in General Discussion on
Hey everybody,
The work progresses, slowly but surely. The title says it all, me and my brother wheelbarrowing 11 yards in to a bank pour footing. Do I need more guys, any tips on doing this effeciently? Footing inspection Tuesday, they are available (the BI department) only two days per week 9-12am. Hoping to pour same day, Thursday if concrete company can’t work with such short notice.
Kevin
Replies
Have you looked into a pump.
I am whipped after 4 yards.
Chuck S
yeah I have, about 600 for the job. Wheeling downhill so to speak. I'm thinking at least 1/2 will go straight from truck down chute into trench for footing, so we'll be doing say 6 yards at most by wheelbarrow by two guys.
Where, exactly, are you wheelbarrowing? Level, downhill, uphill? Have you figured out how many trips and time/trip? We're expected to place at no longer than 10 min/yd.
Unlikely I'd be planning on only 2 drivers.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
it will be 76 wheel barrow loads
Unless he's going up or down much of a slope. Or finds that on the 15th trip he needs to lighten the load a tad.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
By drivers you mean wheelbarrow guys?
Yup. "Mexican dump truck", where I grew up. And your other post answered my questions.
It'll work. Chute extension would make it much easier.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Edited 7/1/2007 10:30 pm ET by VaTom
Does your batch plant have a "Belt" truck? The company I use has a 32' Belt.
$75.00 Upcharge.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I'll have to check, never heard of a belt truck before.
Chutes can be added to the ends of the conveyor.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
:)
How come nobody mention those wheelbarrow with the motors that dump, cant think of the name. you could rent two for $100.
That's worth looking into. Thanks.
We call them Georgia Buggies.
Of course, that's here.
Nice to use to save driveways.
Forrest - in GA
We call them Georgia Buggies.thats it, had a mind fart, could not remember the name.thats what we call them too.
those wheelbarrow with the motors that dump, cant think of the name. you could rent two for $100.
Tremie (trey ME)
I know a rental yard that'd likely sell you 4 for $100 just to get them out of the yard--since everybody pumps for floor work anymore, here in town (and nobody builds higher than a pump can reach, too).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I once rented a Bobcat for a day, to move redi-mix concrete from the street into the backyard for a footing pour. It worked well because they're made to carry the load very low, turn on a dime. Also you can see what you're doing nicely and control it easily.
They make a narrow model now, one that's supposed to fit through a 3' opening.
Renting a skid loader is cheaper than a pump, by about half, and it gives you the option of doing other work with it while it's there.
Edited 7/1/2007 10:52 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
great idea! buddy of mine has all that stuff, I get it for nothing since I treat his wife and employees at a discount. The 3' model they have is a Dingo, forget who makes it. I used it once to move gravel from the driveway, about 6 yards, uphill. Very nice machine.
That's an arrangement I'd surely take advantage of, were I in your shoes.
The only minor problem with a skid loader is that it usually takes a while to get re-acquainted with the foot controls for the bucket. ;-) Otherwise it's a natural for that kind of work.
Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
you know, I'm wondering how close you can get to the edge with one of those. I hate to have to pull one out of the trench, and waste a 1200 dollar load of concrete.
you know, I'm wondering how close you can get to the edge with one of those. I hate to have to pull one out of the trench, and waste a 1200 dollar load of concrete.
The bucket moves away from the machine as you raise the arms. As the front tires are easily visible to the operator, a skid steer is as ideal a machine for this work as can be found.
If you want to be sure of the lateral requirements, measure the distance between the form and the edge of the excavation, at the place which concerns you the most. Then go visit your friend's place and sit on the machine. Raise the arms so that the bucket is just below eye level, then measure the lateral distance between the front of the bucket and the front of the tire's contact point with the ground. I think you'll find that it will be about three feet.
If you're concerned about losing concert, outside the form, use a piece of plywood to cover the space, just as you might with a wheel barrow.
Is there ANY way you can be persuaded to do the pump?
Two guys... thing is that wheeling is not all there is to do. Someone has to rod the mud into the forms, someone has to strike off the tops, someone has to vibrate, you may have to reinforce or repair if there are blowouts.
I would get the pump, place all the mud, then in a leisurely manner you can move around striking off and vibrating. This time of year, relatively warm, two relatively inexperienced guys... I might get retarder in the mud. Do not start a pour later than about 9 AM.
I'm with you. With two guys the $300 pump would save at least $150 of wear and tear on each, not to mention the time.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
i'd get the pump too, but I don't know where to find it for less than $800!I guess a place that can break billing to an hourly that is nearby - but mine is a day rate not hourly.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
just go get you about five home depot mexicians
or Alabamians;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
no, we are too lazy
$800/day is a deal...I have to pay $130/hr + $2.50/yd + $30 Slick Pack...3 hrs and 33yds just cost me 500 bucks, and, there's no ferry involved<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
We do get to add for ferry and mileage too
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I guess the joy of living in the midwest.... I can get a pumper truck for $600 a day, a lot of places also have tow behind smaller pumps around 400/day.
i'd get the pump too, but I don't know where to find it for less than $800!
Holly molly. The last price that sticks in my head was $175 for 2 hours, but it's usually closer to $300. Unfortunately our pump guys send us the small truck with the young kid operator who spends 45 minutes beating the hoses to get everything primed. It almost makes us feel bad.
:-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Average for a boom pour for me is ~$400. Have had them show up clogged and cause a pour to go sour. Now I am always prepared to shut the entire thing down is they can't get the mud flowing right away. If the second truck (or even third!) is there before #1 is dumping them we got problems.
Yeah. The little line pumps. Much cheeper than those monster trucks. And the operator holds the hose!
It's not a question of being persuaded to use the pump truck, just didn't know if it was necessary at this point. Remember, this is for the footing, no forms, it's a bank pour. Going with 3/8" stone in the mix. I was told it would be easier to move around. With a 6 or 7 mix, won't it more or less self level? Do I need to vibrate for a footing?The truck has a 16' chute and can attach another chute if necessary, but we'll have to support it somehow. Footing trench is easily accessible from street, he can even pull up onto lawn since I'll be bringing the lot level up once we're done with everything. I know where the sewer, water and electric lines are, so we can easily avoid driving over them.The walls will be formed ply 8" thick. Planned on pump truck and vibrator for that pour, to be done another day. Will be less concrete but pump makes the placement easier.Kevin
Didn't realize this was footings only. I would form walls also, pour it all at once. With the house sitting right up there you can just hang the forms from it and get good wall-wall alignment that way. I might have some photos of how I did mine, but it was easy, just used 1x4 as "hangers" to suspend the wall forms. If it's your first house then maybe setting wall forms on footings will be more comfortable, but you have to do two pours that way, and it really isn't much easier at all.
Even with a trench footing I would pour 4-5" slump and use a vibrator. Concrete just poured into forms with no rodding and no vibration looks like sh!t after you strip... although you'll never see it since there's nothing to strip... but I would get a vibrator there for both pours, and read up on what it does and how to use it. Maybe 'bagg can throw in a quick paragraph on that, he's done it before.
With earth forms and a bobcat I'd be afraid that I was pushing a ton of dirt into the wet mud. But as we already know I'm lazy and call for a pump on every pour, unless it's a driveway slab and a small one at that. I have poured slabs with pumps, mostly for the quickness of getting the mud laid down.
Would the vibration cause the stone to sink to the bottom making for a weaker footing?
I suppose it could if you fell asleep at the wheel, but the average guy on the average pour is hurrying and does not vibrate enough to do what it's designed to do in the first place.
saw it being done on a youtube video and that guys was moving around stabbing it in here and there, spent more time NOT using it than using it. Alot more rebar on that job to work around.
If you have a good operator you can move and place concrete quite well with the bucket of a bobcat. 11 yards might not be worth a pumper truck esp for a footing. I would place a slab with a pump and some super-plasticizer in the mix but for footers a bobcat's the thing.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
All the reasons above! GET MORE GUYS or a machine. 11 yards will be two trucks and will wear you down fast!
one truck, can hold as much as 11 1/2 yards, altough it's illegal to carry that much, they'll do it. Remember, the chute will reach the front 1/2 of the trench, approximately 55 feet long. Than my brother and I can do the back 1/2 with wheel barrows.
Rent power buggies. If I recall they hold one third of a yard. Three trips to a yard,= 33 trips for 11 yds. Actually if the run is less than two minutes from the truck to unloading, you could get away with one buggy. I would rent two buggies and finish quicker. Rental outfit will show you how to run a buggie, most will deliver and pickup for an added fee.
mike
just called HD, 175 for 4 hours, 220 for 24 hrs Bobcat with a 1 yrd bucket. And I can use it to load all the bricks and busted up concrete from the fireplace demolition into a dumpster. Have to practice a little to avoid knocking house down.
get the one with the tracks, not the wheels, it way smoother
not sure they have that one, but I will if there's a choice. i'll take lots of pictures and post. As far as establishing a finished height, with out a laser, I was going to drive some stakes in the ground along the edge of the footing about 7 feet apart and rest a straight 2x4 on top, than put a level on it, continuing around trench. when I pour I finish to top of stake. sound good? finished height determined by lowest point (grade) of bank.
I was going to drive some stakes in the ground along the edge of the footing about 7 feet apart and rest a straight 2x4 on top, than put a level on it, continuing around trench. when I pour I finish to top of stake. sound good? finished height determined by lowest point (grade) of bank.NO......drive you a rebar in the center of the footing about every ten feet, about a 1/4 inch higher than you need. Vibrate the concrete till the head just starts to poke out.#4 are fine.
Edited 7/2/2007 10:20 pm by brownbagg
so the rebar hammered into the soil is ok? I thought it would allow a path for the water into the footing over time, footing will get wet often, water table is only about 24" below surface day in and day out, much higher during storm season.
Doc,You really must vibrate. Since a contractors' large wheelbarrow will hold about 2 cuft, and wet mud weighs over 100 pounds a cuft, you and your Bro will have to make at least 7 trips apiece per yard. At 6 yds, 1/2 the pour, that's 42 trips each.Figure about 180 seconds for a round trip with that heavy load. Way over 2 hours. by that time, the first mud placed will have set up, which means you must have taken a break from wheeling barrows around in order to work the mud. Add some time to that 2 hour number.Most 'crete companies I've used have a surcharge if you take more than 30 minutes to unload the truck! Two men cannot do this pour by hand.Hire a "Grout Pump," (regional name,) a small tow behind pump without a boom. Have him show up before the first load of mud and try to use him for the entire pour. If there are any problems, use the trucks' chutes for the first half pour while he gets his equipment running.Since a chute will only cover about half the site, order two 6 yd loads, this will give you a much desired break at the half way point.SamT
as long as the hammered rebar is not touching your structral rebar, its fine
About setting the elevation:There are three common methods. If you're not using a Laser or Builders' Level, use a water hose level.1) least labor involved, rebar in center of form 1/4" above grade, pulled out as you go.2) small nails set very proud at grade inside the form about 2' - 4' oc, removed when the forms are stripped. Get in the way when strikning off or troweling.3) My preference, most accurate, most labor intensive, has the added benefit of helping prevent cracks and looking most professional; 3/4" chamfer on each side of the form. Strike off or trowel using chamfers as guide. Comes off when stripping the forms.Rodding and Vibrating:All concrete placing incorporates large voids or air pockets. rodding and vibrating are methods of removing those pockets by causing the air to rise to the surface. This also causes the surface of the mud to fall, so the lead man must place what is apparently an excess of mud. A little experience, 5 minutes, maybe, will tell you how much excess, 1/4" maybe.Rodding is the act of driving a rod, typically a length of #4 rebar, down to the bottom of the 'crete on a 1 1/2" - 2" grid. Yeah, 36 to 64 times a sqft of surface. Tends to drive some of the larger aggregate to the bottom, which doesn't really effect strength that much. Does not move excess mud to unfilled areas. Someone must keep shovel and trowel handy to move 'crete as needed. Chuteman or hoseman must be more accurate when placing than if using a vibrator. Trowelman must strike off quickly, close behind hose/chuteman so he can see if he is placing the right amount of mud. Rod a foot, strike off. Place mud slowly so rodman can keep up.Vibrating a shallow, less than 16" deep, footing 18" to 24" wide; Drop vibrator to bottom for about 2 seconds, 6" either side of centerline, about each 9" - 12" lengthwise. If too much mud was placed, use vibrator to move to end of placement. If too little, place more mud, then vibratingly move extra to end. Leaves surface reasonably smooth and level. Vibrator man has plenty of time to trowel finish as he follows chute/hose man. Tends to shift larger aggregate very slightly upwards. Yeah, I know, everybody else says downwards, but thay have never used a vibrating sorter. Big stuff moves up if everything has the same density, like grains of sand and chunks of gravel do.SamT
east labor involved, rebar in center of form 1/4" above grade, pulled out as you go.leave them, they not hurting anything, you spend more time fixing where you fell in that if left alone.
brownie,
Not legal here, concern about rust spalling and expanding the steel resulting in concrete breakage.
No rebar in ground contact at all."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
yeah, what he said.SamT
OK lots of posts to respond to:Footing inspection went well, approved once we grounded rebar. Called the concrete guy, we had an afternoon delivery scheduled. At first he said he'd have to push it back a few hours, put me on hold, and came back saying they were having problems and could we reschedule for Thursday. Now I'm at HD ready to rent the front loader, told him I was going to try someone else but thanks for telling me straight, something rare around here. Called Clayton, big outfit around here and was told he was waiting on a guy's footing inspection, and if he failed he could fit me in. Call back in two hours as told and the guy passed inspection. No concrete for me today. Called back the first guy to schedule for Thursday, asked about the time allowed to unload and he said usually 6 minutes per yard than $20 every 15 minutes after that. BUT, since he jerked me around today (his words) not to worry if I run over.So my brother and I replaced the sill plate, most of it anyway, can't replace the parts on the steel holding house up. Caused some of the dirt to collapse into the trench but I'll clean that up on Thursday.So thats it, I'll be pouring concrete Thursday and I'll take pictures as time allows. I'll be using all the advice from you guys, SamT, Brownbag, Davidmeiland and others. I'll vibrate the footing, can't hurt, and try not to knock the house down with the front loader. Actually has a back hoe as well, if time allows, I'll be digging out two stumps several feet from the house.
SamThis is the footing, no forms to speak of, just some plywood on outside corners. Poured to lowest grade.
Communications:If you are chute placing, the driver will be in the cab, and can't hear you. If pumping the pump master will be a long way away.Hand signals are regional, your truck driver or pumpman should already know the ones needed.You will need to know; pour faster/slower, raise/lower chute, drive forward/backwards, stop pour; Pump faster/slower, stop pumping.If you are chuting and want to stop the mud fast, raise the chute high then stop.Remember, you will need a place to dump excess mud and cleanup water/SamT
not sure they have that one, but I will if there's a choice.
While you are on the phone, find out what the GVW is for the loaded trailer with the skid steer on it (the orange box does not care if it more than your truck will tow).
Mind you, I saw some hombres in the Lowes rental truck hooking up HD tow-behind rentals--funny beyond words . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
the orange box does not care if it more than your truck will tow
Around here, they will not rent to you without confirming the tow vehicle is adequate. Unfortunately, they do that by model of truck - so they won't let me tow their skid steers, even though my truck is rated for it (it's just not on their list of approved models).
Around here
Which has to be the worst thing about the big boxes--allegedly, one of their "features" is supposed to be their uniformity. Yet, uniform seems to be the the thing they are least. This can be spooky in places like Dallas, where 5 or 6 stores each have 7 or 9 policies <sigh>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
F250 crew cab with V10, plenty of pull power.
This has probably already been mentioned, but to save rereading all the posts I'll just through out the most common mistake made around here when pouring footers is forgetting the ufer ground for the electrical. Our structural inspector who ok's the footer inspection doesn't care about the ufer and won't say a thing, but the sparky hurder does.
I'll bet 1 in 4 diy houses here don't get it right, and more surprising 1 in 10 small contractor projects.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Hey Don,
"ufer ground for the electrical"
The inspector came yesterday and first thing he asked was wher the ground line was. I had no idea what he was talking about. He said if you have rebar you have to ground it, said he trusted me to do it and passed the inspection. I went to HD, got 8 gauge grounding wire with green jacket, 8 ft grounding rod, and two clamps, attached it all, driving the rod about 7 1/2 feet down. Is this what you were referring to?
from my understanding, you weld a wire to the rebar and then it connect to your electrical box
dock , The UFER is a single 20 ft. piece of rebar.
( I deleted some misleading information here)
Technically ( and here it is enforced !) the entire 20 ft. needs to be in the FOOTING and the 90 deg bend is made up out of a separate piece that is tied to the 20ft. length. Our BI have the inspection rights for this as a courtesy and convenience to the electrical inspectors and the contractor/owner.
BI will be on site to check footings anyway so they look at the UFER and put a tag on it showing approval. No tag no electrical approval later on. I have done the 20' of #6 copper wire set on rebar doobies and encased in concrete for the entire length then buried 18" below grade and that has passed as well. Wire should be continuous right up to the panel ."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 7/4/2007 3:22 pm by dovetail97128
No, the footing rebar is the ground rod. It must be a continuous 20' length.You have to run a conductor up to where the electrician can attach the panel grounding to it.If using a copper wire, you have to use an approved attachment-to-rebar method. They make single use welding thingies (tech term) that weld themselves to the rebar and wire.If you use an Ell rebar, you can use typical rebar tie wire, but I would wire the shid out of it, myself. Maybe a double wrap 1' OC.Since it's already in, leave the rod and just add the conductor to panel.Google "Ufer Ground" for more info.SamT
googled as you suggested and I'm a little confused. Rebar has to be 20' continous? I have 3 10' left over, I can't tie them together, allowing say 5 ' to come out of the footing for electrician? tie them to the rebar already in trench for footing?
dock ,
My understanding is that the code doesn't specify that the UFER CANNOT be one of the footing bars. Use one of the footing bars that is 20' long as the UFER. Take one of your ten footers and put a 90 deg. bend in it , place the bend so 6-12" will protrude out of the final stem wall.
This will give a place for the electrician to clamp or fasten his ground wire to .
The other leg of the 90 needs to be tied tightly to the 20' length in the footing. Tie wire works fine for this, just make sure you tie it tightly and often .
IIRC you need a 4'connection length along the two bars. (the 90 and the 20' piece)."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 7/4/2007 4:06 pm by dovetail97128
Take one of your ten footers and put a 90 deg. bend in it , place the bend so 6-12" will protrude out of the final stem wall.I dont think that legal. the rebar must be incase in concrete only the wire itself can exit the concrete. and I think it has to be welded to the bar. ( i think the reason is, its a permant conncetion in the concrete and cannot be undone)we are lucky here, they want us to do it but it still not local code so we can get by with driven rods.
Edited 7/4/2007 4:18 pm by brownbagg
brownie, Must be another regional thing. Here you must have a full 20' in the footing, make another piece up to tie to that one and bring the ground up and above the stem wall, then the electrician uses a clamp to fasten the copper to the bar in the stud cavity. No special connection , just a regular grounding clamp."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
we are just not allow to have rebar sticking out of concrete, has to be brass
Mr. Ufer discovered that rebar in concrete footings made a better electrical connection to earth than 2 copper coated ground rods driven into the dirt next to the house did.The grounding electrodes of a Ufer Grounding System consists of the normal rebar present in footings. This concrete reinforcing rebar system is then connected to the ground buss in the breaker panel.Code requires that the wire or rebar connecting the concrete reinforcing system to the breaker panel be connected to a full length (20') piece of rebar in the footing.
"I have 3 10' left over, I can't tie them together, allowing say 5 ' to come out of the footing for electrician?"As long as the leg that lies parallel and next to a 20' length in the footing is 22 1/2" long AND well tied to the 20 footconcrete reinforcing system rebar AND the leg that sticks up for the electrician is long enough for the electrician AND it is one piece, you should be good to go.If you only need 5' sticking up, bend a five foot leg in one 10' piece and tie it to the footing rebar. More connection is better.That's what I would do."weld themselves to the rebar and wire"The connection inside the concrete from copper wire to steel rebar has special requirements. An "Exothermic Welding System" is one method that I know is allowed.Ask your electrical supply house for FurseWeld, SureShot, Terraweld, or other single use exothermic welding system.Remember, your building inspector is the one you have to satisfy.SamT
This ufer discussion has been very enlightening, ha. On a remodel/addition I'm doing, the electrician asked for a bend from the footing rebar because the ground is exceptionally rocky. Sounded like a great idea to me, but he never mentioned the 20' run part, or how tightly to tie the bend...I'm going back tomorrow and drive a ground rod...dang it<G> Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Did some more research, national electrical code allows for minimum 4 AWG bare copper wire minimum 20' length to be used and clamped or tied with rebar tire wires for this. So my having 105' of rebar made up of 10' lengths with minimum 2' overlap just needs a copper wire 4 AWG, bare, attached to it and out of concrete for eletrician to connect panel to it is fine, wire coming out of ground suffeciently close to panel for easy connection?
PS left message for electrician but feel like it's to short a notice.
That looks good from here (|:>(Doc, you really got to check with a local authority to know what is what where you are.Brownbagg can't use rebar stubs, Dovetail always uses them. I can go either way.Some places require welding, others rebar wire. I can use one saddle clamp.Some industrial jobs I've been on call for twenty stripped feet of green insulated wire clamped to the rebar every 4'.Someone said a 4' overlap is needed on the ground stub, I've seen standard overlap (45 diameters) called for.SamT
Yeah, I was thinking that as well. Building department opens at 9 am and i'll be on the phone at 9 am. Should be able to do what ever they require in time for 10 am concrete delivery. I'll let you know how it turns out.
By the way, I now have 5 helpers, not including myself. I'll be renting a frontloader and have two wheelbarrows going for the side I can't get to with the frontloader.
Thanks for everything!
Kevin
SamT
Our building dept. opens at 8, but inspectors are in from 7-8 to answer questions...you might want to call a little early<G> Good luck Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
Here our ufer has to be 20' continuous with one end poking out of the footer far enough that when the walls and slab, if any, are poured the connection with copper to pannel can be made outside of the concrete.
It really makes life easier if the ufer is close to the pannel and we run it up just inside the concrete on the inside of the wall. So the end can be easily doug out of the 'crete a little sill sealing foam is wrapped around it and taped.
If less than 20' lengths the rebar is supposed to be welded and inspected prior to the pour, at least that's the local interpretation and sop of the whole shebang.
If you only have 10' lengths I'd bend 1' at a 90 on each and put both ends outside the footer for the connection.
Locally, since there is no way for the inspector to see how a copper wire is connected if buried in the 'crete it would be a no-no. It doesn't take rocket science to point out the same could be true of no way to know the rebar is really 20', but that's what we have to live with.
In theory the ufer is quick and easy, just bend the tail of a stick of rebar so a connection can be made and you're done.
Congrats! You're part of the homeowners who are actually getting a ufer in the footer!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Edited 7/5/2007 8:22 am ET by IdahoDon
Footing is done, Ufer was done, 20' 4AWG bare copper wire clamped and wire tied to rebar with about 10' foot out of concrete for electrician. He called BTW and said there should be a ground rod at the meter, never heard of Ufer before, neither did two others aound here. Probably just don't know it by that name.
The frontloader was gone by the time we showed up at HD for 8:30 am. We decided to skip it and wheel barrow when needed. As it turned out he made a soupy 6-7 mix and we dragged it through the trench to height of rebar preset all around. Followed with trowels to get a nice level surface, I'll bet within 1/2 " all around( I dropped a level on it to make sure). Finally stabbed #4 rebar 18" long 2 'OC with 1' in from corners all around and capped the rebar. Overall a very good day. The concrete being cancelled by the supplier Tuesday was a blessing in disguise, no way my brother and I, frontloader or not, could have managed it like we did today with 6 workers, no frontloader. I'm taking the DW to dinner, our 10th anniversary today. I'll post pictures later today or in the following days.
Thanks you guys for all help,
Kevin
Edited 7/5/2007 7:11 pm ET by dockelly
Good to hear all went well, and it may have been a blessing in disguise that you didn't get the loader.
That way, there's no chance of knocking the house down <G>
BTW, you give free adjustments for the guys who help you?
other guy was also a chiro, his wife and son, my wife and sister, so to answer your question, yes. beer also.
I've always said that was wimmin's work!
strong women!
I wish my chiro included beer at my visits.
time to switch.
Hoo-rah!SamT
some pictures of footing pour day. thanks Rez for the irfanview link.
kevinps tomorrow we start forming the walls.ps pic 0681 and 0687 show the 4 AWG copper for Ufer ground. Edited 7/7/2007 10:49 pm ET by dockelly
Edited 7/7/2007 10:55 pm ET by dockelly
bump
Yep, that does look just like concrete!
I bet it will be nice to get the thing back down on the new foundation.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
My guy and two of his buddies were there 7am yesterday, Sunday and worked virtually nonstop until 3 pm. They would have finished forming the wall if a cop hadn't told us to stop, no work allowed on Sundays. We knew this but took a chance since he's now working 6 10's and boss wants them to go 7-10's. 99% completed though, he's going to try finishing Wednesday night. Bad news is he probably won't be there for the pour, which leaves it to me if there's a blow out, not happy about that. I have another friend, self employed concrete guy, who I 'll probably convince to come for the pour. All line pumped.
I'll be real happy when it's set down, electric and plumbing done, and I can put the porch deck back on the place. That's the stuff I like to do and feel confident doing.
Hey SamThis post is not really a response to your post, a new question regarding form oil. Shouldn't that be done before the form walls go up? Mine are up and no oil was applied. Is it optional? If I need to do it, can it still be done?Thanks
Kevin
Smart to oil the panels first, to avoid getting oil on your rebar and footings. In cases where I am monopouring footings and walls I might oil in place, just avoid the rebar.
green plywood, 5/8" thick. So now that it's up, how can I oil it? There is about 8-9" of rebar sticking up form footing every 2 ft, see pictures, but no horizontal rebar will be used. Remember the water table is real high, I'd rather not use diesel or old motor oil. Read something about boiled linseed oil. Also the engineer spec'd the forms be up for 4 days and cover the top with plastic. I've spoken to a few guys who said they take them off sooner, some say after a few hours so the wall can be trowelled smooth. What do you guys do?
we take forms off in 24 hours
dock ,
If you use oil now it will be very difficult if not impossible to keep it off the footing and rebar. If it gets on the bar or footing you will get no bond between pours where that happens.
Skip the oil at this point."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
the footing was my main concern, the rebar I could avoid. How long would you leave the forms on, and is it harder to strip the longer they are up?
dock,
Harder is tough to answer. If the concrete is still very green you run the chance of breaking it removing the forms . Wait to long and it is hard to break them free of the cured concrete. Better to break forms than the poured concrete. I try to wait 48 hours usually , sometimes "loosening" them after 1 day and then spraying everything down with water and covering with plastic. After the second day I will pull the forms and keep the pour damp either by misting or misting and covering with plastic."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
poured 10 yards today, the actual foundation wall about 40" above footing,, some of them for sonutubes for porch. all went well, no blowouts. moving that hose around was like a broncing buc, or like my 18 month old struggling out of my arms. overall a solid day, stripping the forms tomorrow, then covering with 6 ml for a few days.
Now you really understand why so many of us land on your table !! ;-)"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Yes I do! woke up this morning feeling like I was in a fight. spoke to the guy helping me this morning, stripping forms as we speak and wall looks pretty good. I'll get there either Saturday or Sunday and do some light work, I'll try to get some pictures to post. Pretty sure the sill plate won't make perfect contact all the way around and have been looking into SS shims, ever use them? Anything I should know beforehand, looks pretty straight forward.Thanks,
Kevin
dock,
I have never used ss shims.
Rarely if ever do you have perfectly mating surfaces between the foundation and sill plate unless you wet set the sill. Here we use a foam sill sealer between the plate and concrete, this closes off minor air gaps that the installation otherwise would leave open to air infiltration. If I have larger gaps I use either "no shrink " grout or stiff mortar mix to level things out. Install the sill and then pack the gaps with the grout mix. Say this will probably bring out the opposition , but if I get 90% contact I call it good. I don't know of anyone who steel trowel finishes the tops of foundations."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
no setting the sill in wet mortar unless I butter the top of the wall. sill is on house already, not new construction. do you use termite shields? any special requirements with ACQ PT sill plate?
dock,
Here termite shields are not used. That is a regional issue, best follow good local practice on that question. Here we use a foam sill sealer placed under the PT but it's function is to block air infiltration. As for the top of the foundation walls go run a string from corner to corner along a wall , pull it tight and use it as a straight edge to see how good (or bad) things are. If you have serious low spots then use some stiff mortar mix to bring the low spots up to the line. Small inconsistencies aren't to be worried about. The sill and band or rim joist will act as a unit to span small areas and things will stay straight generally.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I like that self leveling high strengh epoxy grout. if you have any low spot it fill them nicely
I have to pick some pictures and upload them so you can see what I'm dealing with. This is all different from modern day construction. It's balloon framed with joists and studs coming straight off sill plate. The original sill was 3"x5 1/2" which i have replaced with PT 4x6 wherever I could. Have to wait for house to come off steel to replace those parts sitting on steel.Basically I don't have a rim joist, although I'm thinking of a way to put one in once I replace floor. BTW the guy removed the forms on the outside when I last spoke to him and he said concrete looked good, no "honeycombs" which I guess means voids. I just recalled I have pictures somewhere in one of my threads showing what I described which I'll attach if I can locate them.Kevin
Honeycomb = bee hole = visible voidsSamT
dock ,
I am familiar with that framing style.
Your sill is thick enough to carry the load across some gaps. I am getting very curious though, just how does the top of the concrete look for flat and level?
1/2 variations in a few feet? 1/4" ? Worse , like 3/4" or more? If you have just a few high spots a chipping hammer can be used to take them down to the average , fill the low spots if needed.
If it is really bad having deep low spots I have sometimes clamped boards to each side of the wall,( I use pipe clamps ) ensuring they are level and flat to the rest of the foundation and them used them as forms to mud the top of wall to get a flat surface. Again, if you have doubts use a string line to check what you have ."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 7/13/2007 10:29 pm by dovetail97128
the guys doing the forms put grade nails every 3-4' and the guy on pour day did the troweling while my buddy and I manhandled the line pump. He returned Friday and stripped the forms. He said it looked real good. I haven't gotten down there yet. Tried to go today but the parkway was a parking lot so I turned around and came home. you got to time that trip right or a one hour drive could end up 2-3 hours.shopped for termite shield, found copper which is compatible with ACQ, 12" by 20' is 40 bucks, ouch. i need 6 rolls.
Hey Dove ,Went down today to put out a fire, BI failed the foundation for no anchor bolts or sill straps. Seems he forgot I was going to do a retrofit approach rather than try to line up 26 bolts. The straps would have worked on 2 of the four sides, the ledger for the porch is holding up the porch roof and I didn't want to mess with it to allow strapping to attach to the sill.Anyway, the top of the wall does have some dips in it. Putting the plastic directly on the wet concrete created some problems. Like the idea of pipeclamps and a slurry mix i can level everything. But the house is so unlevel, not sure it's worth it. Once house is down, I could go around with a grout bag and fill any gaps.KevinPS water line was on foundation wall 12" up wall with recent heavy rain flooding lot.
dock, What can I say about the inspector, at least he was doing his job, even if he was a bit forgetful about the details on your job. Given the thickness of your sill I would do as you say and grout after you set the building down. Good time to figure out where you are going to drain your perimeter foundation drain to . ;-) Oh , and now that you have a full foundation don't forget the crawl hole to access it if you didn't leave access though the foundation, tougher to do afterwards IMO."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
"Good time to figure out where you are going to drain your perimeter foundation drain to . ;-)
Oh , and now that you have a full foundation don't forget the crawl hole to access it if you didn't leave access though the foundation, tougher to do afterwards IMO."
crawl space acces was boxed out prior to pour. What foundation drain? Did plan on damp or waterproffing the foundation prior to backfill. No plan for drain though. Remember water table is about 24" below current grade. Will be adding about 18" on top of that. BTW how high should I go to end up with 18" once backfill has settled? Grey sand fill dirt.
Thanks
dock,
I am unfamiliar with the fill you are using. Here I would estimate an extra 25% for dirt, 10% for sand . A local excavator or supplier will have better input than I will. As for the water table it sounds to me as if you have your footings actually below water table . Is that correct? Or am I misunderstanding something ? If I am reading it correctly then you will likely have standing water in the crawlspace during periods of high water table. Water seeking it's own level will simply seep up through the crawl space "floor". Hope I am misunderstanding the situation."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
footings actual start at watertable. we dug until we hit water which was about 24", common practice down there. Keep in mind we will be adding alot of fill to bring lot up. Neighboring lots and road are higher, so alot of my flooding is due to their runoff. I'll have a foot of water and they'll be bone dry. The dirt under the house is coming up 20", it would have to be hurricane conditions to top that with water.
alot of people think that footer at water table is a bad thing but in a pure sand , this would be the tightest area. like driving on the beach at tide line.
BI said it's what is done there so I did the same. Bottom will be over 36" deep once I backfill. No frost heaving on Island I was told. What do you think about damproofing the foundation?
if you do not have a basement, no need to waterproof below floor grade
Dock,
Ok , now understand your situation. I was wrong in my assumptions.
I was picturing a dig out down to footing level , should have looked at your pics again. brownie is correct , no need for water proofing, raise your grade to with 8" minimum (here at least ) of wood framing and slope away from the house. He is also correct that footing in the water table don't hurt a bit in the sand."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
showed up on site today and 20 yards is alot of dirt (sand). turned around and rented a minibobcat, a rc30 from HD. dumped inside the foundation when i could, otherwise right against it. return tomorrow to shovel over the wall.
Hey Dove,Here's an update. House mover can't get to me till next week so I decided to modify my sill plate approach, more in line with what BI had said he'd do. I put a 2x8 on top of foundation, used wedge anchors slightly off center to allow 4x6 to sit down once house is lowered without hitting nut. Attempted to fix 3/4" dip in one part of foundation, more or less worked, I left before tightening anchor bolts, heading back tomorrow and will see how much gap there is once I do this. If necessary i'll use a grout bag with some high strength mix and fill. I might even do prior to tightening them down so I can squeeze out access and get a good level surface.Ended up using termite shield and sill seal for kicks, can't hurt.kevin
I like that high strength grout that HD sells, Its a non shrink, I tested it and it broke at 6000 psi. its in a quickcrete bag.
Any aggregate in it or is it true grout?
its a true liguid grout. I needed about a 1/8 inch under my car lift
I tested it and it broke at 6000 psihow'd ya test it?
He has a crush table in his bedroom...
Form oil is a releasing agent, makes it easier to strip the forms. Best in your case, IMHO, is to not oil at this time. Leaving the forms on for 4 days helps the cure during it's fastest phase. The rate of curing is a reverse log(?) curve that approaches zero as time goes by. ~70% of the curing will be done in 4 days of moisture retainment. %95 in 28 days. %99 in 28 years, or thereabouts. They say the 'crete used in the coliseum(sp) is now fully cured. ~2000 years.Laying plastic over the fresh 'crete or wetting daily are also effective ways to help the curing.My personal practice is to keep it wet under plastic for 7 days. Longer if it's real easy to do. Helps prevent shrinkage cracks.SamT
My personal practice is to keep it wet under plastic for 7 days. Longer if it's real easy to do. Helps prevent shrinkage cracks.Do you strip,than wet down and cover with plastic?
See dovetails' reply.SamT
Edited 7/10/2007 8:12 am by SamT
If you're using rented forms, you probably don't need oil. They should release OK without additional oiling this time.SamT
That is true. If you are using fresh framing lumber, either oil it or buy a big scraper.
Sam, see my reply to David.
Edited 7/9/2007 8:10 pm ET by dockelly
Too late to oil now. If you can, staple poly to the forms. Will give a shiny surface that works better than oil.
mike
"weld themselves to the rebar and wire"
Is this commonly available? I have to get this done quick as concrete is scheduled for 10 am. not many places open today. How does it weld itself?
Edited 7/4/2007 3:47 pm ET by dockelly
you pouring at 10am. i'm pouring tomorrow at 3 am, and that really late for us.
You attach the ground wire to a 20' piece of rebar that is already one of the footing bars. Here they use two clamps to clamp the wire to the bar. You have to give some thought as to where the panel is or will be, and run the wire there now or later. In your case since it is going to be a crawl space, run the wire up out of the footing to the inside of the building. Do this near where the panel is, and leave enough length to get to the panel. Do not use insulated wire, use bare copper.
You should probably have an electrician do this anyway. They know what to do.
Sorry, but I just got caught up on this thread.Since it has been resolved I started a new thread.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92344.1This list the code requirmeents for a concrete encased ground electrode (Ufer) from the 2005 NEC..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Inbetween the stakes push 16d nails with a piece of ribbon a couple inches long. You will find it easier than the stakes, use both if you want. Put the nails in every couple of feet.
mike
BBDo you think I need to vibrate the mix? two pieces of rebar, #4 in bottom of trench on chairs keeping it 3" off dirt. Other than that it's smooth sailing.
Not neccesary to vibrate a footing, if you have a vibrator on hand it does come in handy to move conrete and helps topping off.Otherwise a vibrator isn't used on a footing.
mike
I guess if you knock the house over, you won't be playing golf for a very long time. <G>
But I really hope you don't. Good luck with your pour.
Thanks Shep,Actually once footing is done I'll be replacing the sill plate and than the wall is being done by a friend, so I'll have some free time. I have a plumber and electrician lined up, so that stuff will be going on while I'm not there. And let me tell you, golf is very high on that to do list. I'll let you know, can you play on Thursday mornings?
With a week's or so notice, I can.
I'm wrapping up 2 jobs in Cranford. By next week I should be able to get out during the week.