Hey all,
I’m involved in a job right now that requires 2 sets of 5′ wide double pocket doors @ 15’6″ tall. (that’s 4 – 2’6″ wide x 15’6″ tall door slabs).
I was hoping to track down some input on anyone’s experiences with a beast such as this….
I was thinking steel/aluminum frame with a skin laminated. any other ideas, any companies specialize in this?
Thanks to all in advance,
Erik
Replies
Sorry for posting this in the discussion...I believe this should be in the Construction techniques section......can I switch this?
Sorry,
-Erik
Skillsaw,Although I agree that Construction Techniques would be more appropriate, I doubt that General Discussion is wrong. There should be replys in a bit.I myself have no idea! But it sounds like a great project! What a room they must go to!Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I just use Johnson pocket door hardware ( double set" and two door blanks.
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Skillsaw....I can whip you up a set.
If you want hollow core, I'll just build them out of two pieces of 2 x 4 linial....#3 SPF with a 7/16 OSB skin. I'll have to charge you extra if you want 1/2".
If you want solid core...no problem. I'll just nail 21 pieces of linial together. Since they'll be solid....no OSB will be required.
I'd highly recomend a solid coating of whitewash!
When do you want me to install them? I'm available right after the holidays.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Can't believe I didn't think of that method!! :-)
Boy...the homeowner will love that osb look when it's painted!! heheheee
-erik
Well it looks like we're in a similar boat, although my doors only have to be 8'tall ranging from 4' wide to 8' wide. I'm in the brainstorming process now. I had a client that asked me to build her 4 bifold 3-0, 6-8 barn doors, according to her "real thick and sturdy looking". Concerned about the weight translated over all those doors to the jamb and hardware that could handle them, I opted to build an internal door frame that I fabricated like a truss and then skinned them with v-match T&G. I was able to jettison a lot a weight but, at 3" thick they still had the feel and "thump" of solid doors at about half the weight. Maybe this might help with the guts part, and of course check the Johnson Pocket HArdware site. As to how to skin them, I'm anxious to see what you come up with.
Good luck
At 15' tall it seems like the doors will not slide open smoothly... they'll tend to move at the bottom first as the user tries to open them by pushing sideways approx. 3' from the floor. Those rollers are going to need to be smooth.
Steel fab is definitely the way to go. Some light gauge channel and a sheet skin tacked on. Maybe find a way to fill with foam or deaden them somehow.
skin 1.5" exp foam with 1/8" ply both faces. Solid wood edges. Hang from Johnson rails.
The solid wood egdes ought to be laminated from rips so it will stay straighter.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Hey. I was going to suggest foam core like Sphere. Read about this technique somewhere. I'll post again if it comes to me.
If they are too heavy, they will require a lot of force to get their momentum going. At 15 Ft with metal, it's getting really heavy. Johnson makes 300lb hardware which is very smooth.
didja ever use that aircraft plywood? has an aluminum honeycomb core, basically weightless compared to "real" plywood.I did a corporate helocopter interior yrs ago out of it..neat stuff, ya epoxy fill the voids for hardware to mount.Can't remember the name of it for life of me.Oh, and never saw it thicker than 19mm
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
didja ever use that aircraft plywood? has an aluminum honeycomb core, basically weightless compared to "real" plywood.
Hexcel http://www.hexcel.com/default.htm
Amazing stuff. But you sure don't want to waste any.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Is this for a residence ?
These things are installed on our commercial jobs all the time in meeting and conference areas. They are top hung and expensive.
carpenter in transition
OK, here's what I gather so far:
I am having my steel fabricator pricing out an aluminum 1" square tube frame with a crossmember in the middle & X bracing in the top & bottom squares (looking like an old barn door). This should hold the shape & keep it kind of light.
My local plywood supplier has 12' sheets of maple laminated on 3/4" flakeboard. I figure if I make a nice tight seam @ 12' off the floor (out of eye level), I can get the sheet to look continuous to 16' tall. These doors will be painted as well to hide any imperfections in the seam.
A nice set of Johnson I-Beam tracks w/hardware should top off this job.
I've got the ball rolling with this. Any more ideas, input....welcome..
Thank you all for the responses.......
ohhhhhh, by the way......This homeowner will be opening these doors to his 2nd story master bedroom to look out his 24' long of 8' tall glass windows at the Atlantic Ocean right on the beach (Long Island's Hamptons).......man, it's good to be king!!
Hope he's happy!!
-Erik
so what yer proposing is a 2 1/2 " thick, HEAVY as a mother door?I can't see the logic...man, they be heavy.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Your idea of laminating the foam.......Is that a polystyrene material (like foundation insulation) ? It'll take a lot for me to make a leap that way, but something tells me that's a nice angle to approach this with.
You think the aluminum frame would be crazy heavy? The plywood should be around the weight of 3 - 3/4" sheets of plywood - I think I would be around 200 - 220 lbs each door. That keeps it under the 300lb rating.
I'd love to find some 1/4" material that could do the trick @ 16'.
I'm just really concerned about the warping/twisting factor. This house is on pyles & sand, there will always be a moisture factor to everything out there.
-Erik
not the aluminum I think is heavy, its the ply (or flake board)You can do 2 things about thinner stock (1) contact a boat building supplier, I once got OKUME (like a mahog.) in a 4'x12' sheet 5mm thick, and maybe they have longer..it's been awhile.or (2) scarf jointthe ply..a rule of thumb is 1 to 8 ratio..what ya do is if it's 1/4" thick, measure 2 inches back..say 94" on an 8' sheet. support the area on a wide bench or plank and plane a taper to a feather edge on the BACK face of one and the front face of the other...glue and tape the joint, apply weights or clamp cauls..you now have a 15'8" hunk of ply..not 16' DO NOT FORGET TO SUBTRACT the scarf! I did once..chewed up 140$ of ply wood...OOOOPSThe laminated rails and foam mo betta IMO.edit: yes, pink or blue foam and spray adhesive Again 1/8" ply and 1 1/2 " foam equals a standard 1 3/4 door thick ness, and yet strike/pulls wont get swallowed up in the massive edge thickness. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural WoodworksRepairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Edited 12/20/2004 5:06 pm ET by SPHERE
The foam core approach is used on custom bi-fold type garage doors. Doug fir frame, foam fill, 1/4" ply both faces, then cover the weather-facing side with 5/8" T&G or ship-lap or whatever style you want. Google on Bi-fold garage doors, there are a number of sites out there, including construction details. Must be stable cause it's exposed to weather and fairly heavy. Course none of them go to 16 feet!
5-6 years ago, I built a room divider that rose from the ground up. This moveable wall was also a display case. Basically, it was hidden behind a 42" high cabinet. When it went up it blocked off the game room. from the theater room. We used a Inca type lift that was custom made with a hydraulic pum, piston and aircfaft cables. We were also concerned that the frame might twist. The metal fabricator said that if he welded in a round steel tube from the inside diagonal corners it keeps the frame from twisting. He also stated that the largest diameter round was necessary and solid round stock would still twist, but hollow won't.
When it was all done, this thing worked great
There are also cable systems out there that will force the top to open the same as the bottom. Similar to a Accuride pocket door hardware with the cable system. I saw one about the same time I was working on the above house. I believe the product was from Germany.This home also had 4) 4'x8' or 4'x10' doors/windows that would bipass each other and pocket themselves into a side wall to open up the living room to the outside. These were also hurricane rated dual insulated glass panels with stainless steel frames.
Maybe this info might help alittle
Erik
I would consider Hafele hardware, I don't think the Johnson are in the same category.
The Hafele is expensive, but its for a reason.
Hafele... wish I'd thought of that first. They have first class stuff and a lot of trick door hardware.
Erik, Kalwall makes some incredibly stiff, light weight panels. I recently bought a lot of them used. Mine are too small for you, only 5'x9', but they make up to 5'x20'. Weight for the 2 3/4" thick panels is 1 1/2-2 lbs/ sq ft. They also make some thinner panels for their residential division. Here're the thick specs: http://www.kalwall.com/spec.htm
They have fiberglass reinforced plastic skins over aluminum I beams. You could glue whatever you wanted to the skins, or paint them, or leave them translucent. Kalwall thinks they're roofs or walls, but you wouldn't have much trouble using them as doors.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!