Replies

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jun 18, 2007 06:27am | #1

   Any 2nd story men out there?

   Yup, but whaddya want with a cat burglar? ;-)

   Ba-dum-bing! (Sorry, couldn't pass that one up; it was too easy, LOL.)

    

    

   Is this to be a full second storey added onto a one-storey house, or a bump-out to an existing second storey?

   Dinosaur

   

    

   How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
   low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
   foolish men call Justice....
   

   

1. 
   property1 | Jun 18, 2007 06:41am | #2

   I set that up on three boards and you are the only one to bite so far! I have a very old riverfront story and a 1/2 that started as a cottage and has grown like crazy over the years. I have the stairs leading to a small, short walled room with about 12" of full height ceiling in the middle. The rest of the upper level is attic with 2 x 4 ceiling joists.

1. 
   Framer | Jun 18, 2007 06:48am | #3

   >I set that up on three boards and you are the only one to bite so far!< Sure about that?http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37534Joe Carola

1. 
   property1 | Jun 18, 2007 03:15pm | #4

   Dinosaur was the first to bite on the (2nd story men) joke I set up. Your information has been very helpful. I was seriously going to sister in the new floor joists for the 2nd floor, fighting the old electric, etc. The system you describe makes good since. I am mostly self taught and hope to avoid the error part as much as possible. The internet has been a Godsend. Handy Dave

1. 
   Framer | Jun 19, 2007 01:51am | #5

   Dave,No problem, my fault. What are the dimensions of your house?Joe Carola

2. 
   property1 | Jun 19, 2007 03:56pm | #6

   I'll get back to you on the size, it's a little tricky because of all the previous additions. For example, I have a front screen porch, inset into my footprint, but there is not an adequate footing under it. Part of my plan is to dig that and put in a proper footing. By the way, since I could stand to put in a new furnace anyway, I plan to go high efficiency and tear down my chimney. (New water heater also).So any hvac guys, Because I don't have room to run adequate ducts up to the new 2nd story, and since adding a large chase and forcing all the air up and back down doesn't seem efficient, My plan is to HVAC out of a separate unit in the attic. Handy Dave

3. 
   RalphWicklund | Jun 19, 2007 04:40pm | #7

   One of the neat things about additions, or not so neat perhaps, is the retrofit of the first floor framing that might be required to support the second story.

   If you have to beef up a foundation there is also a good chance you will need to do the same with the original framing, giving you the opportunity to redesign and provide for chases, A/C runs, electrical, water and what have you.

   Don't rely on a skyhook to do the job of proper building elements.

4. 
   Framer | Jun 19, 2007 05:06pm | #8

   Dave,Every AAD I do the HVAC goes in the attic. That's your best bet.Joe Carola

2. 
   Dinosaur | Jun 19, 2007 07:18pm | #9

   Okay. Here's the short version:

   The easiest way to add on the second storey of your dreams is to rip off the roof and anything else up there and dump it into a container. (Note: this can be done with a big shovel driven by a skilled operator.)

   Then you set new floor joists on the top plates of the first storey, lay your subfloor, and build your second storey and roof from there on up.

   Granted, this is highly invasive and will require you to live in a trailer or condo temporarily and to move all your stuff to the basement and cover it with tarps for the duration of the work, but it is the simplest and surest way to get precisely what you want in the least amount of time-on-site. If done properly, you should be able to do the demolition in two days (one for prepatory stripping and detatching; one for the shovel) and, with a crew of three decent DIYers led by at least one pro, you should be able to be blacked-in inside of a month after that.

   Weather-permitting, of course.

   Dinosaur

    

   How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

1. 
   property1 | Jun 20, 2007 01:55am | #10

   Ok. some of that make sense to me. If you rip off everything I assume you are including the existing plaster ceiling and joists, the knee walls and gable ends. The 13 man framing crew I use did the new construction house next to me completely closed in, 2 hard days. I kind of assumed that I would add on to the existing knee walls and gable ends but you may be right that it would be better to just build a new wall. I'll check but I had not thought about my existing being balloon style framing.Handy Dave

1. 
   Framer | Jun 20, 2007 01:59am | #11

   Dave,There's no need to rip off your entire ceiling joists and plaster and spend extra money for no reason. Either you sit your new joists on a 2x4 block and rip wires and plumbing out of the way or you can just go on top of the joists with a plate and put the new joists on top.Joe Carola

2. 
   property1 | Jun 20, 2007 02:10am | #12

   I have some spider web cracks in my plaster now. With all the action upstairs I may end up with a new ceiling anyway. Granted I could 1/4 drywall over the existing plaster. That is something I need to weigh out. Obviously the reason I started this was to gain information. I AM IMPRESSED! You guys are awesome.Handy Dave

3. 
   Framer | Jun 20, 2007 02:36am | #13

   >> I have some spider web cracks in my plaster now. With all the action upstairs I may end up with a new ceiling anyway. <<Dave,Spiderweb cracks in the ceiling is nothing. Unless you drop joists through every ceiling by accident, there's still no reason to take off the plaster, especially taking off the existing ceiling joists for no reason.I do many AAL's and never take off the ceiling joists and plaster/sheetrock unless a ceiling has to come out to put a new staircase in or make a Ranch house a two story Colonial and we take out the ceiling and create an open Foyer. I took out ceiling joists and sheetrock on jobs to make an 8' ceiling into a 9' ceiling by adding microlams on the top plates and sitting the I-joists on top of them. Sometimes we have to put 2x10's sistered to the existing 2x10's on a Cape Cod house and sitting the new 2x10's right on the top plate because there's existing stairs that won't be touched. There are many things that have to be weighed out.If you have first floor existing headers that are to small, you don't have to replace them, you add a flush header above on the top plates and hang your new joists. This way you don't have to damage anything on the first floor.Joe Carola

4. 
   property1 | Jun 20, 2007 03:02am | #14

   Where are you? Around here I have seen 2 2nd story jobs in 10 years. I can't find anyone around here that has your experience!I was just figuring that 13 full time framers, you know the kind that rock the outhouse, are going to be less than gentle with my old plaster.Handy Dave

5. 
   Framer | Jun 20, 2007 03:17am | #15

   Dave,I'm in New Jersey. There's framers that just do new work and can't go near existing houses and there's framers that do new work and existing work like I do. They're night and day. I hope you find someone that knows what the hell they're doing or you can forget about just loosing plaster, you can loose your whole house to RAIN!Joe Carola

6. 
   Ragnar17 | Jun 20, 2007 03:38am | #17

   Handy Dave --

   I don't think you've said where you're from yet.

7. 
   property1 | Jun 20, 2007 04:00am | #19

   Batavia, Illinois has been home for 10 years. When I started on this handyman special I started with a steel beam in the basement and 2 20 ton jacks. I paid for the river view lot and got the house for free according to my banks appraiser.Handy Dave

2. 
   MikeMicalizzi | Jun 20, 2007 03:37am | #16

   Dave,

   Do you have plans professionally drawn up yet for this project? Have you had any qualified structural engineers look everything over? If yes, then ignore what I have to say, but most people who've put any thought into a second story add-on, almost always overlook the most important item - can the original house withstand the new weight of a second floor?

   You're inspector will want to know two important things: 1) size of the existing main girder, and 2) quantity of lally columns the girder sits on

   If these two items meet current code requirments then you can probably move forward, otherwise, they'll want you to do additional work (such as added lally columns or enlarging the main girder)

    Mike

1. 
   property1 | Jun 20, 2007 03:57am | #18

   I am in the discovery phase. All of the input I am getting is helping me to visualize the project. A 2nd story addition is new to me. I will draw the plans once I know just where I am going. I did my first room addition a few years ago start to finish alone, except, I had one helper on concrete day and 2 helpers for the large and heavy patio French door. I visualized it, drafted it by hand (now I know a little Cad) Dug the hole, framed the footings, set the rented forms, framed and decked, framed and erected walls, built the roof rafters and set, roofed, all before I cut the hole in the existing wall and set a 14 foot gluelam Plumbing, electric, ceramic tile, cabinets, counter tops, cedar siding, and anything else you can think of all by myself. A lot of it for the first time. I earn my living as a handyman and can do a little of most everything. Once I know how it is going together I will bring in the structural engineer and tell him what I want to do.Handy Dave

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jun 20, 2007 05:45am | #20

   From your description of your first major project, you sound like you're at the stage I was when I put the second storey on my own place in '95--just enough knowledge of everything to get myself in trouble...and just enough luck to get myself back out again.

   Adding a second storey to an existing house isn't theoretically any more difficult than building one on a new house, unless you try to build around and onto parts of the original structure which weren't intended to be part of a second storey. Then you get into nit-picking, head-scratching, stomach-fluttering bouts of wondering if you're doing it right. If you've got all year, and the house is stripped of valuables, that's not a problem and you can treat the enterprise as a bonus learning experience.

   OTOH, if you've got to get it done and blacked in so you don't lose what's already there to rain (as Joe pointed out), fooling around trying to save some plaster and 2x4s can get you into serious trouble.

   I'm not going to argue with Joe; he's a top-flight framer and knows that part of the biz a lot better than I do. What he said is all true, and under certain circumstances, I'd do it that way myself today. But if I'd tried to do it that way the first time, I might very well be living in a tent today....

   Dinosaur

    

   How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

   Edited 6/19/2007 10:47 pm ET by Dinosaur

1. 
   property1 | Jun 20, 2007 07:02am | #21

   One thing I have that you didn't in 95 is one tremendous amount of information available from the internet and you guys. I am still about 6 months away from serious plan but I am learning a lot already. Had I tried to start before I heard from you guys I would be in the tent.When I taught a construction unit at the local community college I always told them, "if you want to build yourself the perfect new home, buy 3 lots".Handy Dave

1. 
   JAlden | Jun 20, 2007 06:36pm | #22

   Dave, I'm in Palatine, about an hour east of you. There are lots and lots of AALs in this area and lots of guys doing it.

   We added a partial 2nd floor about 10 years ago. Not a complete tear off, about a third. Cantilevered out the front for a porch.

   Had great prints/plans to start with.

   The framers sistered 2x10 to the existing 2x6 ceiling joists. Original ceiling stayed in place.

   Let me know if you want more info.

   J.

2. 
   property1 | Jun 21, 2007 01:33am | #23

   Sounds interesting. A man near me has offered to show me his scrapbook of previous 2nd stories. I will post more questions as they come up. Handy Dave

3. 
   property1 | Feb 23, 2008 02:10am | #24

   I have now refinanced the house and am in the drawing stage. I let this thread die for a while so I could research the situation. I am now in communication with an architect for "Open Joist". A 16" Open Joist will span 29'- 9" so that I can get by without supporting the middle. I gain the HVAC advantage of running a counterflow furnace in a closet on the 2nd floor to run ducts under the floor.Because the city of Batavia, Il has an infill ordnance I am restricted to the height of the tallest building on my block. That happens to be a two story with a 4 in 12 pitch. With my 16 inch floor joist system I may have trouble with my height. With snow loads in this area I am reluctant to even use 4/12 but I may be forced. I am again open to any bright ideas for a 2nd story addition.HandyDave