Guys & Gals,
if you were to install a ceramic tile floor in a laundry room on the 2nd floor of your home, would you necessarily put in a floor drain too? Or would you simply install a shutoff device like the ones used for dishwasher lines that shuts water off when a sudden drop in pressure occurs (i.e. water line burst)
any advice would be appreciated.
Jeff
Merrickville, ON, Canada
Replies
I think there are enough ways for water to get spilled that I would want a tray under the washer. It makes sense to have a drain in the tray. The possibility of a second floor leak and the damage and expense it could cause is reason enough to take every precaution. A simple toggle shut off that gets used whenever the washer isn't being used is a good idea. You just have to get disciplined to use it. Don't forget to change the hoses every couple of years, too. You may never have a problem but a little more work now, could pay off in spades later.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Mine are located on the first floor. The floor is gypcrete and sloped to a shower ring directly under the washer. Below is my basement floor. The space could never be reused for something else for a reason.
build a curb go with drain put a wet trap in or remember to dump water into trap every now again.
The ideal thing, as stated, is to put a pan under the washer, with a drain. You should, however, investigate using one of the waterless traps for the drain so you don't have trouble with the trap going dry.
Eg, http://www.trapguard.com/
The auto-shutoff hoses get mixed reviews at best. There are also electric valves available that will shut off the water at the wall while the washer isn't running. But simply using the best quality hoses (Fluidmaster No-Burst if you can find them) is pretty good insurance against hose failure.
Jeff,
Yes, I would put a drain in as well. I'm required to have one for an upstairs laundry. Most of the washing machine floor pans have layout lines for cutting a hole in the pan to install a drain. If you don't use a asher floor pan just make the laundry floor a wet floor.
Some codes prohibit you from draining the washing machine floor pan into the septic lines. I live in one of those areas. My drain line just runs into my basement.
One other thing I installed is a water sensing shutoff valve. The sensor goes in the pan under the washing machine. Water hit the sensor and it shut off the water at the supply valves. That'll protect you from a leaking washing machine, a burst hose, or if the drain line backed up or the drain hose came out of the drain. That'd be my first line of defense.
Use stainless braided hoses for water supply.
I'm surprised that nobody cares that the pans look like ####.
I would float a sloped mud bed on the entire laundry room floor, install Kerdi and a Kerdi-drain set, then tile over that. The tile should run up the walls (use sanitary cove if you can get it) at least 6 inches all around, and up to backsplash height behind the slop sink and washer.
The doorway to the laundry room should have a kerb, too. Basically, what you need to do is build a room-sized 'shower stall' so that no flood of any foreseeable proportions can escape to damage the rest of the house.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
I'm about to install a 2nd floor laundry closet, and I have an abundance of Kerdi so the same idea crossed my mind, but I've wondered about the curb. Moving stacked unit around is hard enough, much less getting it over a curb (a couple inches high enough?) and into a closet. Then getting it level on a sloped pan so that it doesn't rattle around...I know you're talking about a room, but I have only a small closet off the 2nd floor hallway for the laundry. Would it be foolish to attempt the same there?Z
For a laundry closet (I'm assuming dedicated) I'd think that something like a marble threshold strip siliconed into place after the washer is set would be enough of a curb. And of course have a little slope to the drain and locate the drain toward the rear.You're just trying to keep the water from running out into the finished space.
I have only a small closet off the 2nd floor hallway for the laundry. Would it be foolish to attempt the same there?
Not at all. It would be eminently sensible, IMO.
The amount of damage the rest of the house can suffer from a stupid little leak in the laundry room while you're out at work for 8-12 hours is astounding. Seems to me taking what measures are necessary to prevent that happening is a no-brainer.
As to the curb, I'd just build a stub wall of 2x4 about 4" high--one row of tile--and yes, you would have to horse the laundry stack over it when you installed the machines. But that's only gonna happen, what...? Once every 15-20 years, when you replace the machine(s)?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I have experienced this problem (kinda) twice.
Our laundry room is on the main floor, with a closet below.
The first time, something fell into the laundry tub & blocked the drain. The tub overflowed, the overflow seeped thru to the closet bnelow, and we had to throw out a bunch of books and other stuff. We spent a lot of time and energy moving every wet heavy thing out of the closet, outside into the sunlight, hoping to dry and salvage.
A couple days later, after everything was cleaned up, but not much put away, the drain hose from the washer to the tub fell out of the tub and flooded worse! Apparently in the effort to clean everything up, I repositioned the hose and it wasn't set well.
So, my questions are, would a pan under the tub and washer hold enough water to make a differenc? And would a water-sensing shutoff make a difference? I think that the wash machine's drain cycle would keep running.
If the pan had a drain it would help, though it might not be sufficient to catch all the water. A pan without a drain is really only adequate for incidental leaks.IMO, a moisture-sensing shutoff system should be rigged to cut power to the washer in addition to cutting off the water taps.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I'll vote with dinosaur in ####.8.
Could be a very attractive installation.
Jim
I guess it depends on how easy it is to install the drain. Is this a reno or new house? By code (Canadian) you can't tie into your sanitary line which may make things quite difficult.
Remember that while it may be a nice idea to have drains in laundry areas, only a small number of the thousands of condos and apartment buildings in Canada are built that way.
I like these
http://www.rewci.com/floodstopsystems.html
thanks mikeys.they're exactly what I had in mind. have you any experience working with them in terms of reliability?cheers.
We used them once so far. The laundry set and one for the dishwasher. the plumber was skeptical so he wet the sensor pad and it worked.
This was about two years ago so I can't vouch for the long term.
You do need an electrical outlet for each unit.
I have an extra one of the IntelliWatts system that I'll sell you cheap. Includes both the system to connect the hoses and the floor moisture sensor. We ended up with a 220V washer/dryer system, so I can't use it.$60 plus whatever it costs me to ship it.e-mail me directly with your mailing info if you want it.
Hi Jeff
Was in your neck of the woods a few weeks ago. I have a second floor laundry and put the washer onto a floodsaver from Washington state. I think I was the first canuck to buy one. They advertise in FHB and will ship to you in a day or two. I've put in about 6 or 7 of them by now. If you call them speak to Addison. His grandfather was from Perth. AS far as what the plumbing code states, I've ran them into the bathtub plumbing before and the inspector was fine with that. I also ran it out side through a check valve and that passed inspection too. Ask your local inspector.
The flood saver is like a small shower stall base and wall unit for the washer. I think they are floodsaver.com.
I also install the oatey box with the hot and cold feed on a single pull duall action ball valve. We got in the habit of turning off the water to the washer when it is not in use.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Edited 5/21/2009 10:04 am ET by cliffy
"Ask your local inspector. "
Is it really something an inspector can call if it is prohibited by code? Your inspector lets you run floor drains into the sanitary sewer?
How likely is it for a modern washing machine to leak or for a stainless braided line to burst? Dinosaur's idea seems worthwhile if I was planning on taking a shower in my laundry room. Why are some people so concerned about laundry water lines, but not about all of the second floor bath and kitchen faucets attached with flexible water lines?
> Why are some people so concerned about laundry water lines, but not about all of the second floor bath and kitchen faucets attached with flexible water lines?Because the old rubber lines would rot and burst after 10-15 years, and the flex lines for faucets weren't in use until about 20 years ago.Washing machines do have a tendency to leak, but it's rarely a major flood.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
One other issue with washing machine hoses is the nature of the machine itself. Washing machines water valves are pretty much instantaneous ON/OFF valves, whereas bathroom faucet valves are gradually opened and closed by the user.The "instant off" nature of the valve can send a pressure wave through the hose, causing a split.If limited, my first line of defense would be a water sensor. If I could go beyond that, I'd install a floor pan with a back wall panel.
Washing machines have relatively high flow rates and sudden shut offs with the solenoid valves.The shock wave is much more likely to cause a hose to bust on the washer than on a faucet. .
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
If you check with insurance carriers, leak damage from washing machines is one of the most common homeowner claims. They are the ones who first brought the issues to light and recommended taking precautionary steps. There are several ways a washing machine can flood your home, it's not just from bursting hoses, although that is common. There are many older machines in use with deteriorating or poor quality hoses. Overloading, soap dispensers, door seals, over sudsing, are just some other issues. Ever hear the machine walk across the floor during the spin cycle due to an unbalanced load?Washing machines aren't used every day and issues may go unnoticed. When a connection fails it may be a complete failure and not just a partial leak. Since all kinds of things from lint build up to coins may get into the pump there is a greater chance that something can cause a problem than with ordinary plumbing. The machines also have immediate on off valves. Most folks know when their washer is running just from the pipes banging. Your sink doesn't dance across the floor slamming the water on and off, yanking the supply and waste lines while pumping water at a high rate, all the time being connected to the electrical system. Dang things can be a nightmare.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Our old Maytag about every 6-8 years needs a new rubber thingie in the backflow preventer of the fill assembly. It tells me of this need by dribbling water onto the floor.(Come to think of it, it's about due.)
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Around here floor drains run into the sanitary. Sump pumps must not, though, and we get inspected every 10 years or so to assure that.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Yes, where do you run floor drains? We have to use a trap seal primer to ensure the water does not evaporate out of the trap. Garages are a different story. What is the problem with a washing machine basin draining ionto the sewer? How is that different than your washing machine draining into the sewer?
Have a good day
Cliffy
It's about where floor drain go, not about the washing machine draining. In some areas, there are problems with backups through floor drains, particularly old cities that allow storm water into the sanitary sewer system (combined systems).I've also heard that some jurisdictions are concerned about what goes down a floor drain, but that I don't get.Some areas require a floor drain if the washing machine is above finished space. Ours is in our second floor bath, and I installed a floor drain there.
I always used a whole house back flow preventer on the houses I built. Hopefulley that avoids me any nasty probs later.
Have a good day
Cliffy
All floor drains including pans for the hot water heater go to the storm system. No problem with washing machines or their basins or any sink being connected to the sanitary sewers. Maybe the Ontario plumbing code has been updated, but it has always prohibited floor drains from connecting to the sanitary for two reasons: The first as I mentioned is of sewer gas from dry traps. The second is that floor drains are well below the level of all other sanitary drains in the house. Connecting a floor drain to a nearby bathtub is asking to have a bath full of water in your laundry room. Or worse still, if you have ever dealt with a sewer blockage you know the first thing that usually happens is that the bath fills with really horrible stuff - because it is the lowest sanitary drain. Would you rather have that backing up onto your laundry room floor?
I have a whole house back flow preventer on my house and each of the houses I have built except for two that had their own septic system. As far as the connection to the bath tub, I'm going back a few years, but I think I ran the flood saver drain into the tub above the trap.I guess there is the remote chance of getting a tub full of water to the washer pan. The washer has never flooded. We shut the water off to the washer when it is not in use.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Whole house backflow preventers are probably a good idea - especially when the municipality has old combined sewers. I remember a blockage in Ottawa that backed up and filled people's basements with... well, you can probably imagine.
Out here I am on septic. Our storm system drains to a ditch, and having floor and hot water tank drains attached to it presents its own problems. If I don't remember to keep the trap full, mice wander up to the laundry room.
Has your spring there been as slow as ours? Everything here is a good three weeks behind.
Spring is way behind. Only cut my grass once so far, only front yard at that. The whole house back flow is a no brainer for me. It is about a thirty dollar part and I do my own plumbing. MY buddy Jack who lives in the same small town as me sumed it up after they had a 8 thousanad dollar insurance claim for a sewage back up. " it wouldn't be so bad if it was your own sh__."
A little old plumbers trick to keep your traps full of water when they never get use is to dump a cup of vegatable oil down. It forms a layer of oil on top of the water and keeps the water from evaporating. Try it, mice are no fun.
HAve a good day
CLiffy
Yes mineral oil. It won't go rancid.Or even better use a waterless trap (Trap Guard). Don't know if they are legal in your area..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Mineral oil it is. I was a bit put off by the idea of having extra virgin olive oil slowly going rancid just below my HWT. Thanks to both of you for the tip.
I dug up the Ontario Building Code online. I'll take a look tonight after work.
You are right. Because of the new awareness of storm water quality, Ontario now makes the distinction between roof drains and other drains which have only clear water in them, and floor drains that people may put evil things down. Floor drains are allowed to be connected to the sanitary there. Apologies for my misleading post. That should be a lesson for me not to go by past experience and look up current codes.
No problem. I was going by the two inspectors I know. I did not look any thing up. Don't you find inspectors will osccasionally make decisions based on their own experience and logic, without refering to the exact wording of the code?
Have a good day
Cliffy
http://www.watts.com/pro/divisions/watersafety_flowcontrol/learnabout/learnabout_intelliflow.asp
A2C-M1 or A2C-WB-M1, both include leak sensor.
Standard operating procedure in my world.
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
due to change in plansI have a OnSite PRO Inc.
Floodstop FS3/4H-90 Washing Machine unit I'd sell for $ 100 plus shipping
let me know ( in original shrinkwrap )
The water sensor/shutoff is probably the least expensive approach--no drain to install, no trap to dry out, no expensive tile work.
Pans are not effective for burst supply hoses. The leak would shoot out in any direction and miss the pan altogether, or mostly.
The tile pad with front dam and drain is a nice backup to the sensor.
Side question to several posters who've said that laundry floor drains aren't allowed to connect to the sanitary sewer in your area: Are you allowed to drain the washing machine into the sanitary? If not, where is it supposed to go? If it is allowed, then I'm having a hard time understanding the prohibition on the floor drain discharge. Are they worried about a sewer backup coming up through the floor-level opening? This is a new one on me.