2nd Story addition by Modular Assembly
Some of you may have weighed in on a couple of previous posts discussing my plans to add on to my 1898 , 1100 sq. ft home in Milwaukee. I was two weeks away from pulling the trigger on a roof tear off and second story addition, and luckily for me the contractor couldn’t get his butt in gear so it was delayed to the spring. Long story short, the wife lost her job and then we learned she is expecting…bad timing but a blessing. Theres no way we can live in this place long term with a family and two dogs. We like the neighborhood and would like to stay…
Recently I’ve been investigating a first floor addition in the back of the existing home, about half the size of the original planned addition, with a full basement. The more I think about that option, the more I realize that it wont give us the space that I think we’ll need as a growing family. It certainly wont do much for the flow and space of the house…and we loose more yard in an already small city lot.
SO… the latest hare brained idea I’ve had to go back to the original plan of going up instead of out, utilizing a modular, factory built solution. There is a company in town that I’ve found doing this type of work (dropping a finished prebuilt second story on by crane). While the construction time is 3-4 times faster than traditionally built stick framed construction, there doesn’t seem to be much cost savings. I’ve dropped a few inquiries to a couple of factory home builders to see if they would be able to accommodate this type of product so we’ll see what they say.
Anyone out there have experience with this type of project? DO you think that I would be able to save some significant dollars approaching it this way? Of course there would be other costs…roof demo costs, 2nd floor deck prep costs, stair, finishing and utility tie ins. But if I were able to find someone get modular units “dried in” I could complete / contract out the finish work as time & money permit.
-J
Replies
Greetings joe,
This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again which will increase it's viewing.
Perhaps it will catch someone's attention that can help you with advice.
Cheers
Thanks Rez,
I thought this one had collectively been "circular filed." In hopes that this does spur some disscussion, here is the link to the company here in milwaukee specializin in modular, or atleast off site built, second story additions. http://www.mypenthouse.com (totally work safe!)
The website is incredibly cheezy and off putting. I would be leery of thier "menu" pricing right off the bat. Side note... I had a quote initially for a conventionally built second story addition from an outfit who's pricing structure was frighteningly similar which makes me even more concerned about even contacting this company. After recieving the quote I checked them (first contractor) out on the BBB and circuit court access... lets just say that they were less than reputable.
Anyway, I cant believe that this is a new idea...anyone else seen anything like this?
Well, congratulations on bringing a youngster onto the turf.
I've never experienced working with the crane placed modules but believe I've seen tv shows dealing with them.
Seems a major factor might be making sure the footer and walls were built stout enough to carry the extra weight.
CheersWhat of architectural beauty I now see, I know has gradually grown from within outward, out of the necessities and character of the indweller, who is the only builder-out of some unconscious truthfulness, and nobleness, without ever a thought for the appearance and whatever additional beauty of this kind is destined to be produced will be preceded by a like unconscious beauty of life. -Thoreau's Walden
I did pretty much what you described. There's some pictures of the construction here:http://www.tux.org/~joel/cons/The contractor did the tear-off, built the structure the modules sit on, did the tie-in, stairs, siding (hardie) and roofing. I did the finish work, which was minimal: trim, paint and finish floorsIMO it didn't save any money but it did cut down the amount of time the house was open to the weather some.The modules were built by Excel Homes of PA and the quality is very high.The first pic is the front module being placed by the crane. The second pic is what the house looks like now.
Edited 6/25/2007 9:30 pm ET by carpenterwannbe
Wannabe,
Was this your home or a customers? How accomodating was the building inspector?... I know the inspector's around here are vehimently opposed to any deviation from normal construction techniques.
Ive got tons of questions but mabe you could summarize you expirience with this method and how you came to the descision to build this way. Any words of wisdom or major issues you would re consider if dooing it all over?
I thought about building the modules myself on site for about 2 seconds before I realized the steps necassary to provide a level building surface and what would be entailed... and the fact that I would basically be covering the rest of my yard durring the building process.
-J
I worked in the modular industry for a couple of decades, and am a fan of that format, but fitting one atop a 109-year-old house entails probably enough jiggering to more than eat up the potential savings, and it's pretty hard still to make it more than a hack. That's the thing with re-doing old houses (my last one was an 1892 Victorian with no foundation in the heart of the Rockies) -- every little thing from sawzall to carpet tacks is completely custom. That means limiting the range of how far ahead you can precisely plan. In fact, you should realize that most contractors taking on this sort of job will do it time & materials only, or include a bunch of contingency loopholes, or just hope you're understanding about overruns. Not much other way to survive in funky old house remodels.
Good luck, and please keep us posted. I'd actually love to hear that y'all got the modular thing to work.
}}}}
This is my house. The GC I used kinda of specializes in modular additions, so this is everyday work for them. The GC handled all the permits and inspections and as best as I can remember there were no issues. I wish there had been -- the flippin plumber crossed the hot and cold when he tied in for one!Second story additions are really popular in my neighborhood (DC suburbs). Land costs are out of sight -- tear-downs go for $400-500k. Words of wisdom? We were really budget constrained. I lived there with my kids throughout the whole job, which dragged on since I finished it myself (heck, I'm still finishing it, well, the addition is done). I didn't have the bucks at the time to do any real improvements on the original house, so I ended up compromising a lot of stuff, tearing other stuff that was practically new apart, cleaning up messes only to make another one right away. SO, IF I was to do it over, I would really try to do everything at once and not in phases. I'd have a plan that fully addressed everything and didn't ignore warts -- check the 1 story part of the house on the left side of the finished picture -- I still don't know what to do with that thing! The other huge thing is that we don't like the way it looks. We really don't think the architect did a good job of helping us understand what it would look like -- we had no experience looking at construction drawings and he didn't use any tools like sketchup the might have helped us envision what the final product would look like.The last thing to remember is that the rest of the house is what it is. In our case that means the floor joists are overspanned and there's no insulation in the walls (brick/block/furring strips/DW). The rest of the 1st floors problems I've managed to more or less fix myself (enlarged kitchen, combined a really small bath and 1/2 bath into one modern sized bath, replaced windows) but its still a compromise.I hope I answered some of your questions with all this rambling... feel free to ask more. I'm always happy to talk about my project
I just thru-up after looking at there website.!
joe,
Its nice to know there is another BT'ER so close by. I live in the far NW part of Milwaukee city limits.
I work for a local Remodeling firm that has done several 2nd story additions on the east side, where historical detail and accuracy are priority. We have not done any modular placement type additions as the age of the houses dictates a high degree of custom framing for tie-in.
E-mail me if your interested in talking to us about your needs. Congrats. We are expecting our third in late Jan.
[email protected]
LittleItaly... and Wannabe,
Luckilly...or not so much, for me the constraints of matching historical detail is a non- issue. The original foot print of the house was expanded at least twice in the past hunderd years. Also, over time what details that once existed (or not) were bastardized and deleted. After trying to force a crafstman style into the design, I realized that it wouldnt work. I will basically be creating a psuedo victorian from what is now a simple "puddlers cottage"
Part of this project would entail a new front porch and new siding and exterior details for the entire house to tie the new addition in as well as improve the curb appeal. Also the interior has become a hodge podge of materials and styles which I will address as time and money permit.
As mentioned in an earlier post, Im only at the planning stages of this project and actual work is likely a year to 18 months away from becoming reality. Wannabe, we too are facing budget constraints and would stay in the house as much as possible durring construction. Ideally, I would have this addition roughed in and "dried in" and complete most everything over time.
The quotes I got for traditional framing are all over the board. Also once the GC's found out that I am an engineer and will be watching the construction closely, some of them were advisarial and in one case wanted nothing to do with the project. Provided we enough equity in the house next summer, I will most likely GC this thing myself.
The biggest hurdle right now (besides finances) is the connection and framing of the second story as there would need to be significant leveling/ blocking for the second floor deck. That part of it is a bit of an unknown untill the roff is removed. The nice thing is that I have some connections for various trades and am comfortable working along side just about anyone (abliet at a slower pace). I figure it would be about a month from begining of the roof demo to a finished deck. Once the demo/ second deck prep is done, it would be really nice to just drop a pre framed and skinned structure on top and be able to work at me leisure... or at the wifes prodding.
Everything Im dooing right now to the first floor existing, is with a second story addition in mind so things like plumbing/ electrical chases and beefed up framing will be in place.
did you look thru my pictures? you can kinda figure out how long it took from the dates on the folders. The roof was off on 8/9/04 (I think it only took a day for the tearoff) and the modules were on the house on 8/13! We weren't really totally dried in for a long time because of the bumpout on the front which was built on site, but on the evening of the 13th we had a blue tarp over the fully framed but only partially shingled roof. Believe me, its way better to have a tarp over the roof than a tarp over the ceiling joists. The house went thru a hurricane with the tarp on the roof without any problems but I did get water in the basement during a thunderstorm while the ceiling joists were covered with the tarp, that would have been on the 12th -- got a couple of inches of water in the basement, it ran off the tarp and into the basement outside stairwell, flooding the basement.8/13/04 was a Loooong day. We kinda got a late start because the crane guys didn't bring enough counterweight and they had to send a truck back to the yard for more before we could start. Each module weighed in the ballpark of 19,000lbs -- one is a little deeper than the other, like 14x40 and 16x40, so its heavier of course. The structure that supports the modules required a fair amount of work to get it level. They did a good job of hiding it in the front but in the back you can see pretty easily the old roof wasn't level but the new second floor is.One thing is for sure -- if I was doing it over I wouldn't do the bumpout. It added a lot of time, a lot of expense, adds very little value, and we hate the way it looks too! I'd rather have had a front porch instead. I think it'd be more useful and look better too.
Littleitaly,
You have any pictures of the finished work for your Second Story Additions on the east side? I'm in bayview couple blocks from the lake.
from rez:
"Seems a major factor might be making sure the footer and walls were built stout enough to carry the extra weight."
I'd bet that there are a lot of guys like me who have done major renovations of hundred year old houses, thinking exactly the same thing about the foundation, framing and other items of interest...plumbing and wiring in particular. All anyone of us can tell you, without actually inspecting your home and getting pretty deep into it, is that we'd prefer to see you build new.
It's human nature to become attached to a personal living space and/or a financial investment. Re-locating your objectivity may be your biggest obstacle.
I once did a farm house renovation for a businessman from NYC who was new to the country. He thought he would save himself a considerable sum by avoiding a big bill for new materials. Other tradesmen before me had told him to tear it down and build new.
That wasn't what he wanted to hear so he simply asked me if I could make the place livable, "fix it up a little". As he was willing to pay me by the hour, at a time when work was very slow, I told him that I'd be happy to proceed.
A year later he saw that what he'd saved on new materials he'd paid out in added labor, extra work required to mate the old house to new materials and technology.
He had poorly designed, inefficient old place which didn't suit any of his family members at all well. It was his folly because he wouldn't/couldn't let go of the idea that the old structure had real value in the modern world.
So I designed him a new home and we built that one, next door. The old place became a rental, one from which it would take many years to recoup his investment.
Hudson-
I have verified that the foundation/ walls are capapble of supporting a new second story...its the first place I started.
Also, building new would be my preference if it were econmically feasible. Id love to tear this place down and start fresh, however, after (preliminarily) running numbers I dont think it would make dollars and sense. Also, Im not willing to relocate my familly for months on end while demo/ construction is going on. Nor could I afford it. A couple of months is dooable, 6-9 is not.
The bottom line is that property values are going up in my neighborhood at a much faster rate than most other areas in the city...in fact everything else is stagnant in milwaukee. We couldnt afford this nieghborhood if we were buying now. And really like being able to walk/ bike to work! A major factor in my desire to stay put is that I work for the local municipal government and residency requirements dictate that I live within its borders.
I'm now faced with three options...maybe 4. In order of preference:
1.Add on; odviously the way that Im leaning if things work out.
2. Sell/rent the house as is; i'd probably make out ok If I sold and would almost break even if I rented. Get into a home better suited for the family. But I cant imagine that I'd find something in my price range two blocks from Lake michigan and as close to work as I am currently walking distance to restaurants/ shops. There are upsides to this though...I could do with out being 10 ft. away from nieghbor and not hearing traffic all day and night.
3. Do nothing; wait out the impending. I can probably get away with dooing nothing for a couple years untill the baby is really moving around and accumulating the requiste kid toys/ clothes/ junk.
4. Demo and start over; not my first choice as I JUST finished a bathroom. I could probabaly salvage the fixtures as they havent even been used as of today, but ripping out the tile that I just put in makes me sick to my stomache. I guess thats the attachment you were refering to! Major positives to this approach as well, would finally have the blank canvas Ive wanted. But... would also mean a major (long term) investment.
I have verified that the foundation/ walls are capapble of supporting a new second story...its the first place I started.
Sounds like you've been going about this with care so, as long as you're willing to deal with all the unknown, time consuming problems, there's no reason not to proceed.
Joe,
You need to get a design and a rough cost estimate for your addition. Then stop and engage the services of a local realtor or appraiser. Find out how much you can purchase ad larger house for in your neighborhood. The answer depends on you local real estate market. Most of the time it is more cost effective to just purchase a larger house.
I purchase my 1890s house for $178K. The larger homes in my neighborhood were selling in the $350K - $400K range and most of them were dated and needed new Kitchens and Bathrooms. In my case spending $150K on an addition and renovation to our existing house ended up being a better option because we got a new Kitchen and Bathroom instead of dated.
Too many times I have seen folks put an addition on their house without doing the proper analysis. They simply assume that the cost of the addition will translate directly to added value to their. Big mistake. Do your research.
Mike
Old house remodeler
Real estate appraiser
Mike,
Glad you hang around. Good advice to take a look at the whole picture. I've been asked many times my opinion on what a project would mean to the total value of a home, that is-Return. I can only answer that it will be worth what someone is willing to pay and in this changing housing market, that could be a good guess.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
May local real estate markets are semented into price tiers. In order for an addition/renovation to move the value of a home up into the next price tier it needs to meet requirements of buyers in that tier. In many cases it is difficult to turn a $200K home into a $300K home, even by spending $125K.
Of course educating homeowners on the cost vs. value issue would likely cause many to reconsider their project, which would not be benefit to you guys in the building trades. Perhaps a partnership with a realtor could be benefical to all parties:
Homeowner - gets free market analysis from the realtor in order to make and informed decision.
Realtor - If the homeowner decides buying a larger home is the better option the realtor would get first shot at the listing and potential for a 2nd commission when the homeowers buy the new home.
Contractor - Gets a referral fee or percentage of commisions generated from the referral.
Just pick a honest realtor you can trust.
Mike K
This disscussion has gotten a little bit OT, but thats not a bad thing.
I would still like to hear from anyone out there that has more to say about modular (off site built) units as opposed to conventional stick framed. i.e. have you seen cost savings/ faster turn around time/ etc.
Mike, I have done my research, in fact i think that its not out of the realm of possibilty to build an additional 100k in equity. And Ive come to the conclusion that an honest real estate agent is hard to come by. Im in a similar situation as you were... bought the place for 140 (2 bed, 1 bath). Its worth closer to 185 right now with minimal investments. we would be doubling the size of the home adding three bedrooms, 2 baths and a den/ TV room. Similar homes (out dated at that) are going for around 400 to 1 million as you get closer to the lake. Im 2 1/2 away from Lake michigan and an out dated 4 bed 2 bath on the same street went for 380 a few months ago. A tear down 2 bed across the street from the lake went for 650. I figure this whole thing will cost me 150k. Maybe less If I can do a lot of the finish work and sub to my people. I just dont know If want to add an extra 100-150k to my mortgage payments. If I knew that I was just going to flip it at the end of the process, It would be a no brainer. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I would like to stay in the nieghborhood.
Im trying to be realistic, and planning the construction well ahead of time. And I appreciate all the input and perspective. I deal with multi million dollar construction projects all day long but when I start thinking about an additional grand a month out of my pocket I have to pause and over anylize everything! Its so much easier making tough calls when youre spending someone elses Money!
Joe,
Sounds like you thought it through.
Yeah the larger mortgage is definitely a big adjustment. I've grown to like ramin noodles.
What region are you in? I built a spec house a few years ago and considered modular construction. While it looked good on paper, but I found that contractors, building inspectors, and banks were not very comfortable with it. I'm in the Chicago suburbs and the local ordinances require plumbing, electrical, and HVAC to be installed on site. Kind of eliminates some of the advantages of going modular.
Good luck with your project.
Mike-
I'm your nieghbor to the north...the one who's basbell team has come out of thier 25 yr drought and is kicking the Cub's @$$!. Sorry I never miss a chance to call out a flat lander... it comes from living with one! It's like WWII in our house when the cubs are in town or those two sunday's a year when the Packers and Bears meet. Since you are missing a tank this year, we may be able to penetrate your defenses.
Oh in the case you dont care about either of these teams, disregard my shenanigans.
I lived on ramen noodles in college! in fact I ate so many of those little packages, when I got a job I swore I never would again. However, with the indroduction of the microwavable soup cup, Ive founf myself splurging on a four pack from time to time.
J
<< I'm your nieghbor to the north...the one who's basbell team has come out of thier 25 yr drought and is kicking the Cub's @$$!>>Enjoy it while you can. Cubs are playing some good ball.
Cubs are playing some good ball.
For what they paid for that team they damn well better be!
I still hope for the old Cubs to return to their normal selves!
Doug
Im trying to be realistic, and planning the construction well ahead of time. And I appreciate all the input and perspective. I deal with multi million dollar construction projects all day long but when I start thinking about an additional grand a month out of my pocket I have to pause and over anylize everything! Its so much easier making tough calls when youre spending someone elses Money!
Time for another two cents from me, the financial pocket this time. You know that you have an amazing capital gains credit available, right? Selling this house after two years of ownership allows you half a million dollars in tax free profits, no re-investment required.
Adding a grand a month to your mortgage may be a burden right now but it will allow you an awful lot of options, as soon as you've completed the finish work. A new appraisal would make your financial life a lot more viable, no matter what you decide to do about living arrangements.
Honestly, using your local knowledge of real estate and that captial gains credit could make you wealthy in a few years. I frankly don't understand why that's not a continuing topic on this message board. It's my sole retirement plan, building new houses on approved lots that I've purchased during my working life, living in them for two years and then selling them for all the tax free profit I can get, up to a half million each time. How else can you do that, completely legally?
I know a young guy in Southern California who's been doing exactly what you have in mind, adding a second floor to homes in good neighborhoods, a new master suite in most cases, then selling them after two years. He's basically retired, in his early forties, spending a lot of free time playing at sports that he's enjoyed since he was a teen-ager. His wife is happy because she can spend her time as she wishes too. They make well over a hundred grand a year, tax-free without breaking a sweat. He now subs everything out, unless he gets the urge to add a personal touch to something.
Back to your modular question. If you contract with a good stick builder, he'll have the second floor's exterior walls framed, sheathed and up, the first day. The same is true for setting roof trusses and sheathing off the roof...one day with a good, small crew should will see it completed.
Modular exterior wall panels may save a few hours when done with a crane but is it worth the extra money? I can't answer that for you but I can tell you that any good framing crew...four guys...can knock out four exterior walls, sheathed and erected, in less than one day. If the contractor pre-cuts and makes up all the headers and other basic components, they'll be ready for the trusses after lunch, the first day.
Best wishes, Peter
Hudson,
You make a really good point about the business aspect of this project... In fact it was the first thing I said to my wife to convince her that going up was worth the headaches. (we can just move and cash out after it done) The baby on the way complicates things logistically as I wouldnt want to displace the familly this time next year.
I think it will take me a while, or a promotion, to get over the prospect of being house poor. But then again, its kinda hard to blow your money on fancy dinners and booze with a kid at home.... the DINK committe called, they want thier membership card back.
Ive made inquiries elswhere regaurding this project and so far, Ive come to the conclusion that the modular thing is probably not the way to go. I just finished a new bath room and will be moving some walls around through the rest of the summer so I expect to have some real equity in the house. I should be able to pull out 50 grand to get the second floor roughed/ dried in next summer and DIY/ sub everything else out over another 1-2 years. It took me way too long to finish he bathroom, but man was the first flush gratifying.
J
Edited 6/28/2007 9:42 am ET by joemilw