Hello,
I have a question that stems from lack of experience. My husband and I are building our home ourselves. We are have our 3/4″ oak flooring acclimating in the rooms and our window and door trim. We were wondering if the interior doors (prehung flatjamb) should be installed before or after the oak flooring is laid. I have our doors ordered but they are not to arrive for a few weeks. I am pretty sure if we had the doors we could answer our own question by looking at the jambs. Any comments would be appreciated.
Thank you for your time.
Aubrey Johnson
Replies
I would do the wood floor first. And I would finish it, at least all except the last coat, before I ran base and hung the doors. Just me though. If you want to hang the doors first, just space them up with a scrap of hardwood and then you should be able to slip the wood under the door jamb.
MERC.
This was our plan, however there appears to be many solutions, some right, some wrong. Thank you for your time. Aubrey
I would put the doors in first; I mean unless you are not going to finish the floor till after you hang the doors. No sense working on new floors, even if covered after finishing. Even then, install the doors first; you're floor person should have one of those jamb saws (not sure the name of the tool) to deal with this very thing i.e. doors installed before wood floor being put down.
We are our 'floor person'. It does make sense to get all the "dirty" work done before putting down and finishing a floor. We would probably end up working with our shoes off if the floor comes first! Thank you for your time and comments. Aubrey
Well, I guess that settles it!
Actually, I would like to know myself, as I am at the same point as you are......
Edited 2/9/2005 1:38 pm ET by MikeFitz
Which one are you doing first? Aubrey
Which one are you doing first? Aubrey
Well, I was going to wait until the dust settles on this discussion and then follow the advice of IMERC and DJMerc, among others, and put the floor down first- at the risk of DDay calling me a hack!
The correct way to install hardwood is for the doors and all trim to be install before the hardwood flooring. Most pre-hung doors will already have the casing up enough for the flooring to fit under.
The reason why you trim a house before you put in the hardwood is to deal with the expansion and contraction of the wood. Wood expands and contracts across the grain, so on baseboard it expands and contracts vertically. If you put the base board in after the hardwood, you will see a gap between the hardwood and the baseboard when the wood contracts (during the winter). The hardwood will also expand and contract but when it contracts, the gap that will open will be where it meets the baseboard but because the hardwood butts up to it, the gap will only be visable when you are standing right above it. You have to deal with the contraction either way but you do the hardwood after because it is the least visible way. Its similar to when you cope the baseboard corners, you decide which to cope depending on the visibility of that joint. Also, all good hardwood installer will tell you that hardward so be put down after the trim and that where it meet the door casing, the hardwood is scribed. You don't want them to cut the casing and fit the hardwood underneath it, again because you will see the gap.
A friend of mine just bought a new house last year and I was visiting this past weekend. The builder put down the hardwood floor first then install the baseboard. When you sit down to eat dinner or sit on the sofa to watch tv or talk, you can very easily see the gap between the baseboard and the hardwood floor. The dry winter air has contracted the baseboard and the gap is easily seen. If the builder did the flooring the correct way, sitting down or standing in any position other than right next to the wall looking down you would not see a thing.
A friend of mine just bought a new house last year and I was visiting this past weekend. The builder put down the hardwood floor first then install the baseboard. When you sit down to eat dinner or sit on the sofa to watch tv or talk, you can very easily see the gap between the baseboard and the hardwood floor.
This is true, but I disagree with the reverse method--putting down the baseboard first, then wood flooring. One can scribe the molding too, and put over the wood floor. Yeah, I suppose there will still be some contraction and expansion from the flooring throughout the year, and conceivably gaps could develop unevenly, even with the scribing done, but I think noticing this is pretty neglible.
I also think painting the base is easier when it is on top the wood flooring. And I also like the "cap" affect of the base on the wood floor.
Although not a tradesman, I don't think anyone is going to notice my non-scribed baseboard over woodflooring except me who did it, and a true custom builder; but then they aren't allowed in my house. <g>
I also *shudder* miter my inside joints on base and crown and don't cope the joint; well, I may cope the crown, I haven't installed that yet and don't plan to till down the road a bit.
those gaps are because the base wasn't fitted... just installed...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
those gaps are because the base wasn't fitted... just installed...
I'll accept that: "just installed." I may be a hack, but I'm a gooooooood one!
I have never heard of putting the baseboard down before the hardwood, but my experience is limited to a group of DIY friends & family. We've read to leave a 3/4" gap at the wall in the hardwood floor for expansion. Wouldn't the floor expand more than the baseboard considering the volume of floor (28ft) to baseboard (7in) and with crushing force. I am unfamiliar with the scribing technique you speak of at doors. Do you mean cutting a notch around the door stop of the casing? Thank you for your time. Aubrey
My vote goes for floor first. Shy would you want to do all that exact fitting when the cuts can be covered by molding and cabinets?
What happens in the summer when your hardwood floor that is trapped between the door jambs and casing expands and pushes your door jambs around?
Or worse the jambs stay put and your hardwood buckles?
I've never seen flooring installed the way you describe and I suspect this might be the main reason.
Does Gary Katz count? "I said I always try to install paint-grade baseboard BEFORE the tile is installed, so that the painters can spray everything, all the base, casing, jambs, doors, before any finish flooring goes in"
I wouldn't think about putting the base on top of the flooring, it is just wrong.
From:
Gary_Katz <!---->
12/31/2000 2:38 pm
To:
ALL <!---->
(13 of 19)
9098.13 in reply to 9098.12
I think we just had a post like this on the JLC forum. I said I always try to install paint-grade baseboard BEFORE the tile is installed, so that the painters can spray everything, all the base, casing, jambs, doors, before any finish flooring goes in. We hold the base up if the floors are being floated for tile, just as we do for any floors that get underlayment, like for hardwood flooring. After the tile is installed, we install pre-finished base shoe, or the painters mask the floor next to the base before we install the shoe. While I use my scribes almost every day and enjoy scribing precise tightly fitting joints, scribing the baseboard to the floor is something we only do as a last resort. It takes too much time and effort. And those grout joints are REALLY a pain on Saltio tiles and Mexican pavers and tumbled granite, and irregular slate, and...I'm sure one of the reasons we do it this way is because we're bidding all finish by the piece, baseboard by the foot, like most other finish contractors in our area, just as the painters are bidding the job and can do it more profitably if it's all done at once.Gary
Well there are two main difference here.First he is mainly talking about over tile. And irregular handmade tile that that.Second he is using shoe to cover the gap.Neither matches what is happening in this case.It is wood floor and they don't want shoe.So what are you do for an expansion gap for the wood floor?
I see from your profile that you're a 30 year old banking/financial services/real estate person.
I've been a carpenter for 30 years, extensively involved in remodeling and finish carpentry. I've run miles of base, without a single callback.
Installing base and casing before the hardwood floors is, IMHO, the "hack" way of doing it. When the floor moves, and it will, there will be a vertical gap at the floor/base joint, just waiting for dirt and crud to fall into it. You also lose 3/4" of the profile height, which can be significant on some bases.
Installing the base before the tile is another situation. I've run base either way with a tile floor, depending on the job needs and schedule.
Some of the responses you got made my head hurt.
Hardwood first!!!!!!!!!!!
Then doors. ignore what the jambs look like. You want to trim them so that the door is level and has the reveal you want between the door bottom and the floor.
To do this, first decide how much you will be trimming off of the bottom of each jamb. Next, level across the opening and make pencil marks on the wall ( doesn't matter how high. Maybe around 18"). Measure from each mark to the floor and write the measurement down ( I write it on the wall where the casing will cover it). One will most likely be shorter. Subtract the shorter measurement from the longer one and write the result on the side of the shorter measurement. for example 17 3/4 and 17 3/8. There is a 3/8 difference. Write 3/8 on the side that is 17 3/8. when you cut the jambs to get the reveal you want, cut 3/8 more off of that side. If you are careful you'll be able to just set the door on the floor and it should be level.
For baseboard on hardwood, Keep the base up off of the floor with a nail. When you put the shoe on don't nail it to the base. Angle the nail so it pulls the shoe tight to the base but is in the floor. Now as the house exands and contracts thru the seasons the shoe will move with the floor. Cualk the shoe to the base with a good cualk and paint and you'll never notice it. Not nearly as bad as the gap that forms between the shoe and the floor the other way.
One thing I forgot. It is also much easier to paint if the hardwood has not been installed. Most painting contractors will spray the ceilings then prime if necessary and spray all the trim with two coats, then rolling the walls. By not having the floor down, you don't need to tape and tarp anything. The tile and kitchen cabinets should be installed after atleast the trim and ceiling have been painted if you are spraying.
good luck.
We have all the walls and ceilings painted. We are using a multiple piece window header (Neoclassical) so my plan is to prime and paint the trim after we have built the header for each window. Thank you for your comments. Aubrey
How much trim and/or flooring have you installed?
Better question: How many books about the subject have you read?
One opinion does not an expert make!!
I kinda take offense to being referred to as a hack, although understandably not personally.
Framing and Trim, 10 years in the bizADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
I would do the floors 1st... to include finishing
so much cleaner and a much better fit and finish.... it will show in the details..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
another item...
you will avoid toe or shoe moulds unless you desire them... again cleaner...
across grain expansion in a base is near negligable as where a floor can move coniderably.. use the base and jambs as part of the finish closure..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
contraction on base molding is much greater than "near negligable". The practice of putting base over hardwood flooring and cutting door casing so the hardwood slides under, rather than scribe to fit is what some of the "just get it done fast" builders do now. The old school way is to fit the hardwood to the base. Putting the base on top or cutting the casing instead of scribing is HACK WORK plain and simple. It is quicker and easier than doing it the right way. Mitering corners is easier than coping but it is HACK. A job worth doing is worth doing right, even if it takes longer.
ALL the old houses I've ever worked in, and in 30 years there's been a lot, have had the base installed over the hardwood floor. Some of the houses I've worked in are well over 100 years old.
I don't think that's the "hack" way, but the correct way to run the base. All thats needed to make a tight joint is to push down on the base as its nailed, and maybe plane a little off to scribe it in.
I also, when possible, install and trim doors AFTER the flooring is down. Its much easier to get a tight fit by butting the casing to the floor rather than scribing the floor to the casing.
I do believe in coping just about everything, and "springing" it into place for a snug fit.
what happens when the floor pushes to the base or pulls away....
that makes fer some major ugly...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I have no interest in starting a flame war, but I have to ask: DDay, do you have significant professional trim experience? I myself do not, and thus usually defer to the pros here. When I do offer advice, it is to simply relate my personal experiences and acknowlege their limited nature. Your profile seems to indicate that you are a non-pro like me. We already have a bad rap here, so I try to maintain a low profile. If I have you all wrong, forgive my post.....
p.s.- just because I'm not a pro doesn't mean I have to be a hack. I try to avoid it by being a good reader, listener, and learner.
Hack huh?
I saw a floor install just like you described about a year ago... as I was doing the quote for a brand new floor, because the expansion of the flooring and the other movement had cracked the base and buckled the flooring. Floor was five years old.
Base goes in after the floor. And if your have to scribe much on the base... your floor sanding leaves MUCH to be desired.
Aubrey,
Doors... you can do it either way... but I PREFER to put my doors in afterward (when possible). Be sure that you leave enough room for expansion; regardless of the method.
Edited 2/9/2005 11:30 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
Seems you're now calling NOFMA a bunch of hacks. http://www.nofma.org/installation2.htmWanna know why this is the way to do it?http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/shrinkulator.htmI ain't a banker and don't pretend to know much about it either. I could probably learn some things about it from you as a matter of fact. If I paid attention, I'd likely benfit from that. Catch my drift? The laws of physics don't give a hoot about misconceptions.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I wasn't planning on shoe molding. I thought the floor could expand more than the baseboard considering the expanse. The professionals don't even seem to agree on everything! Thank you for your time. Aubrey
I have never, ever, ever, ever seen base molding installed first with the floor scribed to it. I've done work in a LOT of OLD houses.
Put the floor down. i would not be worried about leaving it shy at the walls, but if you do, be accurate. Nothing worse than running base and finding it doesn't cover the flooring.
Have the floor sanded and 2 coated, or finished completely. At this point your baths should be complete, maybe kitchen complete (should) , electric and plumbing trim complete, you said the painting is done.
Cover the floors. Work nice. Soft clean shoes, hey I've done trim in flip flops or socks.
Hang your doors, trim the windows..............what's left??? Move in and scratch up yer floors!!!
When's the party??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
We are doing flooring before base. We were planning on leaving the flooring shy at the walls, but less than the depth of our base molding. We will have to be accurate, or we will be going back to buy shoe molding.
We are laying red oak 3 1/4" with "microgroove". Do you sand this flooring differently because of the groove? Out local suppliers only have Minwax and Varathane for finishing floors. Are these okay or should I shop for something like Basic coatings?
Time for us to go work on the house. Thank you for all your replys.
Aubrey
Edited 2/9/2005 6:40 pm ET by Aubrey
talk to two very knowledgable folks here on the floor finish...
Goldhiller and RW....
where is livitditch when ya wanna talk to him...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
livitditch when ya wanna talk to him
Luvditchburns must have either a ton of work or a ditchburn i nthe garage--has not been online that I've seen in months . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I was wondering how he is....
could use some more of his work in the photo gallery...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
where is livitditch when ya wanna talk to him...
I'm laying some subfloor tomorrow for him to drive down and cover.
he's busy as always ... guy works about 26 hrs per day 8 or 9 days a week.
met me a coupla weeks to look at the job ... on a Sat .... I felt bad about the Sat meeting ... till I realized I was just one stop along his way. Had to leave mine to go sell another floor. Best part ... my home owner had read about "end grain" floors but had never seen one .... so what's he come back from his truck with?
a sample board of end grain he'd made up for his next meeting.
He's a good kid, that one!
broke my customer the bad news that her historic "top nail" floor couldn't be "saved" ... but if she didn't mind the squeaks and rolling floor .... she could just clean it up and have it look years younger. Then ... proceeded to write her a list of step by step directions.
She was upset till I reminded her her just "saved" her a coupla grand on refinishing a floor! He's coming back down to lay the dining room that'll match the old and the existing border.
Best part ... the nice lady thinks I'm a freaking genius!
all because I know some people who know of such things ....
he walks thru her door and suddenly I'm wonderful.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
at least we know he's alive and maybe well...
miss his articles...
tell him hi...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
aubrey... floors first..
those advocating the trim first were trying to accomodate the painter...
a good painter is not going to have a problem.. and a so-so painter can pre-finish his base and touch up after it's installed
leave your gaps at ALL walls, we normally use 1/4" spacers and then pull them after the floor is in place... in that 28' room cut the sheet rock away from the bottom shoe (plate ) and clean that gap before you put your spacers in
there is a lot of force against the spacers so use wedges that you can pull, or you won't get the spacers out
transitions are planned to fall IN THE CENTER OF DOORS, or use thresholds
the micro-groove is some kind of weird thing for cheap-a*ss spec builders who were not going to sand the floor before finishing... you're going to sand the micro-groove away...i've seen the micro-groove on unfinished floors before
one of the reasons to use unfinished flooring is to get rid of the micro-groove , which you need if you are using pre-finished flooring... because of the small differences from one piece to the next, but with an unfinished floor , the micro groove will disappear on the first cut
rent an air-powered floor stapler/nailer.. i like staplers.. some like nailers.. you will not believe how much better the job will go , especially for your first floor
get your flooring tight before you nail
and do a practise floor before you do the big one, like maybe a walk-in closet or some such...
lead with the tongue... first board gets face nailed to establish your line.. this one will set the patterne for the whole run..so get it right..
if your room is out of square.. you will want to taper the first board
when you get to the far wall... you will have to face nail the last boards also...
you can use predrilled holes and finish nails for this.. or if using a cleat nailer.. shake out some loose cleats for the face nail
have fun.. and post some pics of your progress
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
can ya help the lady???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
can ya help the lady...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
yeah...........I'm not familiar with that micro groove that you refer to.
Sound more like a feature one would find on a pre-finished floor.
Finishes.........that could take up a whole forum.
Last&last makes a good product IMHO. May not be a very technically trendy product...........but I wwould venture to say it is bullet, and IDIOT proof. Read dyi proof.
Good luck.
So when's the party, or did I already ask you that??
C'mon, you afraid of fourty or so Breaktimers showin up at your house warming??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
As a matter of fact, we are having a 'housewarming BBQ' when we are done. It will be a thank you for all our friend & family and those that have helped us build. It will also be a 'come and get your tools' party because we don't know what belongs to who anymore. We have been at this for 2 years April 15.
Left over tools?????????????
Well you just invite a cuople of us over, and we'll take care of that problem in short order!!
Good Luck!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
go back in yer closet... that's been handled..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
didn't think you wanted shoe but how do you intend to cover the gap that will fluctuate at the floor / base intersection if you put the floor to the base instead of the base to the floor???? do you plan on corking ???
if you leave the 3/4 gap at the wall, or cork it, the base will cover that... thyat 3/4" gap can be measured from the plate if yur drywall has clearence for the flooring to go under it... something else to consider...
scribing.. marking the bottom of the base to fit the floor's irregularities so that the top of the moulding will stay on or keep to a horizontal plain... after you cut your scribe line the bottom of the base and the floor should mate perfectly...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Put me in the hardwood first, then baseboard and casing crowd. It makes so much more sense than trying to fit hardoowd flooring tight to base? Why anyone would want to do that, or even proclaim that it is a far superior method is beyond me.
I think it would be next to impossible to do a decent install of a hardwood floor after doors, casing and base are in, even without the seasonal movement we all know to expect across the breadth of a floor.
Add seasonal movement into the equation and I can't imagine anyone looking you in the eye and saying you shouldn't install the floor first. I might be tempted to not put the finish on before trimming the house though.
Seems like you could area sand around the base of each door jamb and edge the room(s), then trim out the house, then finish sanding and apply finish after everyone's done packing tools around dropping nails and (piffen) screws. Not saying I've ever done it this way, but I just might give it a try one of these days.
I can also see why Gary Katz says he installs base before tile. But before hardwood floors? I don't see it. I think that is either a slip of the tongue or a misinterpretation.
Call me a hack. Won't be the first time.
Flooring first. Always.
Thank you.
Time to put this argument to rest. Imerc and the others who say flooring first are correct. The large expanse of flooring is going to move far more than any width of baseboard unless your base is going to run from floor to ceiling. lol
But don't take my word for it or the word of a banker, it's a matter of simple physics. If the wood is fitted tighty and the RH of the home reaches a point higher than that at the time of install, the wood will swell and flooring will buckle. That's at any time inthe future. Not just next year or the year after. And a buckled floor is far worse than any measly little crack which may appear at the bottom of the base during the lower RH periods of the year. It doesn't make any sense to risk the whole floor install because of someone's anal-retentive inclinations about a crack at the bottom of the base. What's better about having a crack of floor to base? Makes no sense to me and the laws of physics wouldn't cooperate with those desires anyway.
Take a look at some of the links to installation at NOFMA. Under certain circumstances they recommend placing a putty kinfe as a spacer between each and every piece of flooring at install. Why? Cause the wood's gonna move. It's to allow for expansion.
Also note the section on corking the perimeter under retrofitting a new floor over an existing one.
http://www.nofma.org/installation2.htm
Much info = http://www.nofma.org/
The Varathane should work fine for your finish or most any oil-based poly rated for floors. Three coats, even four, would be my advice. Oil-based poly is very DIYer friendly and it sounds like you intend to do this yourself. Go with a water-borne floor-rated poly if you don't want any ambering, but be advised that usually those don't stand up quite as well agaisnt scratching and such.
Edit: If for some reason you do go with a water-borne floor rated poly, you can't put down four coats or it may never cure properly. See can for recommended final thickness. Usually two coats.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/10/2005 10:39 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 2/10/2005 10:45 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Now that that's settled, how about carpet- before or after base trim and doors? If transitioning from wood to carpet as one enters or exits the room, where exactly does the transition occur?
trim after gets rid of most of the crud collecting "pocket" at the wall and the transistion is generally done at the center of the jambs... jambs after make for a very clean look.. trim before - the trim is held proud of the floor 3/8 to a 1/2"...
nothing steadfast here... site will requirements will have more to do with it than rules...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
"Now that that's settled, how about carpet- before or after base trim and doors? If transitioning from wood to carpet as one enters or exits the room, where exactly does the transition occur?"
If it's stretched in carpet, I like to install base first, leaving it 5/16 - 3/8 off the subfloor so the carpet tucks under the base. This keeps the carpet installer from putting his tack strip (didn't mean to cuss) right against the wallboard, which makes carpet replacement far easier in the future. Your base can take a beating this way, though, especially with a heavy backed carpet.
If it's glue down carpet I like to install base after carpet is down. That glue makes a mess on trim and it's I usually have to fit base over a slab anyway.
I think the best place to transition from one flooring surface to another, or one color carpet to another, is directly under the leaf of the door. That way when the door is closed, you see one surface, or color, from each side of the door. If you make the transition mid jamb, you see the joint when the door is closed from one side.
But those are just my preferences. I don't think there's any "right" or "wrong" way to do any of this stuff. Now that so much building is subbed out, a lot depends on scheduling - who can get in the building when, and how many trips you're asking a sub to make. And of course, when someone is paying interest on the building loan, "time is money".
Thank You.