322 yr ol’ house again (foundation)
OK. some know me and this job I’m doing, know I’m starting work on my 322 year ol’ crib. I’ll be doing the excavation work this week (tomorrow). Digging around the rubble rock exterior walls about two feet wide and six feet deep in order to get the pressure off the walls and make for proper drainage. Think I’m gonna use one scoop of portland and two scoops of mortor and maybe use a liquid latex additive rather then water( just an idea I came up with) to fill the cracks tween the rocks on the exterior). Adding perforated pipe at the base then back filling with 3/4″ gravel with landscape fabric tween the rock and soil. Question is….what to use againt the rubble rock to help keep the water out. The historic structural engineer I used told me I really dont need anything there but as long as I’m doing all this work I’d like to put something there….Any ideas my brothers?
Be well
Namaste’
Andy
It’s not who’s right, it’s who’s left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
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Replies
I'll start this with the most popular line here: "I'm no expert but..."
I had a thought. In art restoration it is common practice to ensure any repairs can be undone. This is partially to leave room for future and presumably better technology, but mostly to not destroy the original master's efforts.
I would imagine trying not to modify a 322 year old foundation too much would be a good idea. Perhaps the added drainage alone would fix your problem? What about those insulating boards that wick away water? Maybe you could lean them up against the original structure and seal around the outside?
Just some amateur thoughts...
Any idea if the water is coming up from underneath, or coming from the sides? The only idea other than just coating the whole thing with some sort of tar, is sheets of liner material of some sort, fish pond material maybe? If you mud up the cracks, any of the products for sealing block foundations should help some, shouldn't they? Don't let that ditch cave in on you, you would be missed here in cyberrenovationland!! Some type of shoring may be appropriate. Good luck!
Dan
What we sometimes use against the face of a retaining wall is a product called "coredrain" Its a sheet of fairly rigid rippled plastic sandwiched between two layers of geotextile. It's available in two forms, a strip about 6in high designed for use as a sub-soil drain and rolls about 4ft wide. The large rolls essentially form a 4ft high vertical drain. Adopting the principle that any modification you make to a 322 year old house should be undoable, my inclination would be dispense with the morter and instead place a thick geotextile material against the rubble rock walls, a layer of "coredrain" then back fill with 3/4 gravel. My aim would be to get a very efficient vertical drain without having to modify the rubble walls.
A question you should try to get answered is were the rubble rock walls originally backfilled?
Andy is the dirt you are going to excavate helping hold your foundation wall if it is be careful when removing that you don't cause a failure. I would look for a structural type mortar skim type product i have never used this type product but have heard of such a thing.
ANDYSZ2
My first thought was that a 2' wide trench 6' deep sounds dangerous. I'd rather see you dig it out a little wider to allow a little more "breathing" room in case of a cave-in.
I'm trying to see things from your point of view but I just can't get my head that far up my a$$.
This was discussed in another recent thread, undermining rubble / stone foundations is a very risky and touchy thing to do.
The dirt that you are excavating was probably never excavated before. That's right, the rubble walls were most likely laid right against the edge of the hole and that earth helps hold up the wall.
If you excavate too much the whole thing will collapse.
Be very cautious, and excavate as small a length of wall as possible. I recommend that you get some guidance from someone who's done several of these before you start digging. Someone local who knows the soils and the performance of similar, local, foundations.
As far as sealing the outside, once you've dug away the dirt you'll see that 'sealing' that surface will be next to impossible. It is likely very, very rough, with stones sticking out willy-nilly. The mix that you propose sounds like it would work as long as you poured it against the wall surface with a form to hold it there. If you try to parge the stuff on by hand you may find that so much dirt & rubble is in the cracks & crevices that it won't stick well.
Good luck and keep us posted!
Norm
I agree pretty much with everyone. I AM concerned about removeing the dirt, wondering how much its stabalizing the walls. I will be doing the entire front and two sides of the house all at once. I really dont think its stabalizing the house because what it "IS" doing is its pushing the walls "IN" which is one of the main reasons I'm doing this. I want to get rid of the hydrostatic pressure then install proper drainage. I think I may buysome sheets of CDX ply to put up against the dirt wall in the trench with 2x4's as bracing to the house to protect me and keep some sort of bracing on the house. I know I can work in a 2' wide trnch but I'm also nervous. the ground is pretty hard but still....
Going to power wash the dirt between the stones so I can mortor them properly.
I cant use anything stiff to keep the water from the house as I'm sure the stones are all totally irregular.Maybe I'll just put some really heavy poly against the wall before I backfill with stone.
The heavy equiptment just arrived so I'll probably start later today or tomorrow morning. Hope you all hear from me again...lol (not funny). This was the advice I got from an historic engineer that I PAID for trying not to be a know-it-all. Hope he is (a know-it-all)......
Wondering what artifacts I might find.....hope one of them doesnt end up being me buried in there. Better bring my cordless phone in there just in case. Gulp
Be well
Namaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
andy- i wouldnt count out shoreing the foundation from inside with a sheet of plywood standing up . you'll have to cut it to fit because of the ceiling height 2x6 nailed vertical on the edges with brace's(another 2x6) secured to the 2x6 you've already nailed and stake's pounded in at least 14-16" , 3-5 feet away from plywood.hydro-static pressure will go with the bulge of the foundation . which is pointed in, please becareful this can get a little tricky, i'm talking from experiance here. hydro- static pressure can be a little unpredictable. if you relieve pressure someplace it can cause more pressure some where else, there in lies the rub, especially at the basement windows and you have mixed field stone, rubble, and brick foundation which tampers with the continuity. kind of important for those dual forces( compression/shear) . so you just try to neutralize those, there was a guy in 17 th century called Hooke developed the theory that "deformations are directly proportional to the stresses exerted" look at the picture and baby step your way through at first check EVERYTHING!!!!. support your joists to take the heat off the sill , your timber frame will hopefully have enough to them to help you support the sill which DUH will support the outside wall. that will minimize the live load above. and more important and this is a big factor, mind your weather it can reek havoc with basement excavations, and just making progress in any way. if you get a steady rain for 4- 6 hours go to blockbuster and rent an Ikira Kurosawa movie and be content about tomorrow.......... cheers my friend i'll swing by tomorrow to say hey in the 4-5 pm , if weather is good i'll through the rope ladder down to you.......: ) bear
Edited 11/20/2002 8:07:05 PM ET by the bear
Bear
Please bring beer...countin on seein' ya tomorrow
Be well my brother
NAmaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Bear....was talking about shoring up the EXTERIOR dirt while I work on the foundationIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
thats important also, but once you breech that existing dirt your changing the support system of the complete foundation and the bulge in the foundation is your achilles tendon I.M.H.O. beer it is ....beer i mean bear
Bear with the beer..bring it on my brother. HAve a new role of film..We'll post us standing by the ditch sucking a brewski down before all havoc lets loose......whatever. I have a good feeling! Whats the worst that can happen.....geezzzzzz, that openin' up this threaed...cept...diggin starts at 7:45 AM tomorrow...Thursday.
Be.....uhhhhh
In a well?
Namaste
Andyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy............hellooooooooooo.....anyone up there?It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
when the adrenale glands are all a twitter , the brains a syncopatin'. thats what life is all about ..... sleep well...., tomorrow there's a game a foot ; ) .................. bear
Yo Andy; Can you hear me down there? It didn't cave in did it? Or are you just to tired to tell us how much fun you and the Bear are having? Curious minds need to know, what did you find, anything newsworthy? They were still using gold coins back then were'nt they? Well if you get the feeling back in your fingers, let's talk!
Dan
Dan
I was shi*tin last night. The coorners of the house look seriously ify and the entire center (about 8') have nothing under the plate. My wife wanted to stay at a motel last night but I said I aint goin'.told her to go if she wants. I'm stayin' with the ship. The pour is this morning at 11 AM about 25 yds or more...Still holding my breath....found no artifacts, just a set of concrete stairs burried next to the front door to the basement...weird. Maybe for coal??
Be well and thatnks for checkin' in on me
Namaste
Andy...PS...Taking pictures so you all get to seeIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
hey, andy.. sorry i missed the foreplay...
have you called any of the gunite swiming pool guys.. this sounds like the ideal situation for gunite below the finish gradeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike...read the thread I started a while ago called "test" to see what happened to me yesterday......OMG. Nice that The Bear was here to help...he was the first to see the wall cave into my basement with tons of concrete and then walking down to the basement and seeing my new washer and dryer three feet away covered in concrete and upside down with the water feeds pulled off the wall and pouring water..what a sight!!!! WOW! I think I "passed out" around 9PM and just woke up.....thinking it really didn't happen...whewww..it did though. What a day. Perfect story for the last page of FHB I'm thinking. All turned out great though in the end...24 yds later....and ten yds of sand to get the last concrete truck up the muddy hill for the last pour What a sight it was/is. I have lots of pictures to develop and post soon. The house may burn down one day but this foundation is here for another 322 years and then some (with my name on it)! Sometimes it doesnt matter how many precautions one takes....Shid happens, especially with a house this old.
Thanks for inquiry and concern
Be in a well
NAmaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
You can get to the inside of the foundation and put some kind of jack/shoring up, can't you? I think it would be very wise to try. I've been thinking of your house lately and it is amazing that something that old is still in good shape. Especially the foundation. I think your idea to repair the foundation is good, but go slow and make sure you are protected. By the way, aren't you the one with the DeWalt cell phone/FMradio/stud finder etc.,etc.? If so, where can I find one?
Bob.read my reply to Mike Smith....as far as that radio charger goes.....I do have the DeWalt and its greatttttt. Had it from the day it came out. I think the one youre referring to though with the cell phone charger is the Millwakee but it doesnt look as sturdy as the DeWalt to me and you can get one at H.D. Personally the DW takes an incredable lickin' and just keeps on tickin'.
Be in a well
NAmaste
AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
1680 is really early - if the house is that old, then there are a number of resources at the state and federal level who've been there and done it. My house is mid 1700's and part of my dirt basement if formed with stones 2 ft. wide. And I did have some water problems that I corrected.
First, make sure water doesn't collect around the house or foundation - I actually created a swail around part of my house. Next, make sure water from roofs gets transported away from the house. I did excavate down about 6 ft. around the foundation - being 2 ft. wide with large stones for the most part, I didn't have safety concerns. But as Norm points out, the exterior surface is very jagged. I did try mixing mortar and paraging the wall - very tedious and time consuming. If I had it to do over again, I would have built forms that rested just away from the outermost stones and would pour a very loose (low slump) cement and then vibrate it to make sure the cement penetrated all the jagged areas. I would then cover the cement with a sealant (there are many products out there - both 4 x 8 sheets and liquids) and then put drain tile at the base of the new wall and back fill with stone. I also recommend the geo-fabric to protect the tile from clogging.
After I finished paraging my walls, I dabbed foundation asphalt on the wall and then covered the areas with several layers of plastic. It still works well and this was done 10 years ago but today, I would do it as described above.
Again, dealing with a house as old as yours, there are many resources out there that can give you excellent advice. I've called Colonial Willimasburg, Winterthur, Sturbridge and other histroic sites to talk with folks who deal with these issues and they have always been most informative.
Please keep us informed.