I am a Seattle, WA remodeler.
I am a dedicated eco-builder, member
of the NorthWest Eco-Building Guild,
BuiltGreen, and the USGBC.
I am very happy with the GHNE checklist,
however saddened by the requirement of
only 50 points to certify.
The most important idea to consider is that
sustainable building is not about marketing.
It’s about sustainability. We have to recognize
the consequences of our choices.
Hopefully, there are truely sustainable
builders on this forum. Any deep green
discussions are welcome.
P.S….Electric water heaters, regardless of
installation, are the worst energy performers
on the planet. Of course, who gives a crud
if it’s just about the certificate.
Replies
I bet you already guessed that BT in not primarily a green building forum.
I'm not familiar with the certifications or the organizations you are citing.
I'm also not sure what sort of conversation you were hoping for.
My home is passive solar and I partly heat water with the sun. It's a shame that more homes aren't built with the sun in mind. The technology has been around for 30 years or so now.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I am not sure what I am hoping for other than like minded folks
who have information to share about sustainable technology
and thinking.
It should really be the core of all discussions involving anything
that we all build or do. Fine Homebuilding should be setting the
tone for this thinking...maybe there are more of us out there than
we know.
We do have a sharp PAHS builder here as a regular and others who care.I agree that all home plans which don't seriously address future energy use are like horse drawn buggies on the Alaska viaduct: out of place with the times.I lived on Vashon from 89 to 94, so I know your area a bit.There are a number of good folks living in the south Sound area who are BT regulars.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Fine Homebuilding should be setting the
tone for this thinking...why?
Good point. Fine Homebuilding is a magazine about taking the art and science of homebuilding to the highest level of quality within the homeowners needs and budget. Yes? That includes artistic high craftsmanship construction as well as the newest and best in building science. High performance buildings, designed to perform at levels far better than code naturally fall under this topic as much as new tools for installing crown molding or heating hot water. Since I have moved my family into a high performance home we have stopped visiting the emergency room for my daughters asthma, and have dramatically reduced our energy bills leaving us more money for travel and buying antique guitars. Fine Homebuilding should be about building the very best homes we can for the budget we have available. Ergo Fine Homebuilding should be setting the tone for enthusiasm about advances in high performance building as well as the advances in Green Building. The thing to remember here is that high performance building is not limited to the John Edwards and Hillary Clinton liberal elite. In fact John lives in an energy sucking McMansion and GW Bush has a green ranch. The Christian Right understand that God may have given man dominion over the plants and animals but that this does not include the right to pillage and destroy all living things. As Rod Dreher points out in "Crunchy Cons" green building and environmental causes in general are in complete alignment with traditional family values and conservative ideology. Just because you support green building does not automatically identify you as a liberal democrat. Stopping global warming is the conservative as well as liberal thing to do as is conserving resources and living well for less and doing whatever is necessary to keep our kids out of the hospital and out on the playground. Buildings are a very easy place to improve the energy performance of the nation. Advances in energy performance and green building are at the core of excellence in homebuilding and so are exactly what Fine Homebuilding should be raising the level of enthusiasm about.
"Why" is a good question...I became a proud reader of FHB many years ago when I first saw the name in print. I immediately thought to myself...a perfect label for my passion in quality residential remodeling. Fine Homebuilding teaches us monthly the proper way to build things. The concept of building things properly is in itself a sustainable idea. However,
the Earth and everyone on her it is ready for a new age of Fine Homebuilding that is
beyond "proper construction". It is about human survival. It is about respect for a
desperate Earth. It is about everything that each of us can do to help provide for
a healthy and enriched future. It is for my three year old, Sawyer. It is for your children
and their children. Fine Homebuilding recognizes excellence in building with pride, but I don't see it set
an example for the moral imperative of building with neutral impact on the Earth in mind.
I once again chuckle at the concept of spreading 50 points of Green BS on my toast and calling it delicious, when I know it is missing about 350 points of love and respect for our childrens' children. And mostly, who really cares about points when it's more about choices...that we are making for our unknowing children. Look at your child in the eyes and say you don't care. All of a sudden, you care so much it is all you can think of.
Thanks in advance for your understanding.
Robert
I read the point system, you get points for filling in swamp land, you get point for have an efficent oil heater. But no point if you have a house that does not even need a heater. The point system itself is corrupt.One think to build green, but what is green. green is a term to raise the price of housing. I rather not build green but build indestruable.But people dont want green, they dont want indestruable. They want red brick and 12/12 roof, with black asphalt shingles. they want they hvac in the heat of the attic.green does not make sense.
Obviously there are still many green scoring systems out there with LEED-H and NAHB GBI on top of the list but I have never seen a green scoring system that gives points for filling in swamp land or doesn't give points for designing a house to be so energy efficient as to not need an HVAC system. Energy efficiency is at the top of the list of easy ways to score points in both LEED-H and GBI. Most programs give points for keeping hvac ducting and air handlers out of un-conditioned attics. And, while I am not sure it is actually possible to build a home to be indestructible, the GBI guidelines specifically target durability through advanced flashing, foundation waterproofing, and engineered roof overhangs all of which receive points. The GBI point system I work with is a compromise to be sure but it certainly is not corrupt. You say "Green is a term to raise the price of housing" but our studies have shown that dramatic improvements can be made to mainstream code compliant housing that will bring them to green certified and energy star certified quality for only $6,000 to $9,000 per home (not a percentage of the price of the home). How is building a more durable house that has better energy and indoor air quality performance for an additional $9,000 some sort of scam?At this point the market does seem to prefer large volume red brick McMansions and the green building programs are working very hard to open peoples minds to energy performance, durability, and sustainability issues. What about this doesn't "make sense."
Edited 2/20/2007 10:26 am ET by ShelterNerd
Huh?
I remember years ago, a homeowner assumed I was "new"
when I said I was a "green" builder.
I am not sure where you live, but in my community and
in ever growing numbers of communities, there is a huge
demand for builders that deliver high performance,
low-energy use, low off-gassing, well built homes.
They recognize that these homes are easier
to maintain and cheaper to own, better for their health
and best yet, they are reminded daily that the resource
efficient construction approach saved precious resources for
their childrens' children. Now if you say that any of the above is not true, than you
show your colors, you just don't get it...however, it appears
from your rant that you DO get it! You clearly recognize in all of
the things you listed that there are better ways to do what we
have been doing wrong for years. Many of us agree with you.Thank you for agreeing that the point system is a joke
when builders are blindly using it as a marketing tool. For
me, it is the only way to build. That's what matters most.Your last line, in response to your third line, should
read "green makes sense"!
But here is the main question.keep it simple What is green?and it truly is a question, not a statement about saving the earth or leaving to our family but a hard nose fact "what is green?
"Green" does mean different things to different
folks, but the common denominators are
"Ecologically sustainable and environmentally
friendly".
"Ecologically sustainable and environmentally
friendly".But what does that mean?Because I live in a concrete house but its not green, it doesnt matter that it has no heat, no a/c, no maintance, storm proof, be here for hundres of years, no termite chemicals, it still not green.But a house with Black shingle, oil base paint, formide carpet, can qualify as green because the builder decide to use double pane window and increase the price by 40% because its green. And a HVAC system that uses less energy that an old one, but still more than one not used at all.green is a racket
Where do you get the assertion that your house is not green? It sounds pretty green to me. Run it through the GBI scoring tool, I'll bet it does pretty well.http://www.theGBI.comYou cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate.
because its used a lot of fuel to make concrete, if concrete wasnt used then this fuel wouldnt be burn. So instead cut down trees with chainsaw and run through saw mill then truck to site and cut using generator is more green than using concrete.
http://www.theGBI.comThere's a scoring tool there? I didn't find it.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Here's the version that's been adapted for NC
I'll try to dig up the exact URL for the national tool later today.http://www.hbadoc.com/associations/2116/files/HBADOC%20Green%20Calculator%20100506.xls All the bestMichaelIt should run in Excell------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Thanks. Didn't work for me. Seems I need to "repair office 2000". Hope it's self-explanatory.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
If you don't have Excel you're pretty much hosed when working with this scoring tool. Didn't you suggest the excel viewer in a different thread? 80665.80 in reply to 80665.74
Free excel viewer at http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c8378bf4-996c-4569-b547-75edbd03aaf0&displaylang=EN
Was that able to open the document?------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
You keep repeating the same argument. Your concrete box example IS green.
Deep green, in fact. Why do you say it isn't green. It is very green.
Lovely green. OK?
And many hundreds of other green concepts exist out there, all
applicable to standard stick frame construction techniques. The idea
is to apply as many of these concepts to everything we build. Forget
the points. That's why I raised my voice in the first place...to agree
with you that the current point system is too market driven.
I am a proud member of the local chapter of the Northwest
Ecobuilding Guild, a group of serious green builders, architects and suppliers.
For many years the Guild hissed at the mention of BuiltGreen and the
market driven point system. Recently, a change has evolved wherein the
principals of the Guild were asked to help redesign the BuiltGreen
checklist. The result is now, at least locally, a tightening of the belt,
a raising of the bar, a more appropriate focus on a stricter adherance
to the laws and principles that have for many years governed the
Guild, but not BuiltGreen.
Really, I don't care about points, I care about the future of a healthy
Earth for our children. That's what it should be. Your right, HVAC, should
be banned!
Brownbagg-
I think you are looking at this wrong. Sustainability ultimately should be about the 4 R's- reducing, reusing, recycling and regulation (McDonough & Braungart, Cradle to Cradle, 2002). Right now our processes, construction techniques, and homes are inefficient. The goal now is to become more efficient with less waste (also the idea of Lean Construction). This process is called eco-efficiency; it makes the bad process a little less bad. Once we start to define (by use of a point system) http://www.usgbc.org/DisplayPage.aspx?CMSPageID=147#what we will start to raise the bar, and what is considered now to be "out there" will eventually become "best practice".
You are correct that the embodied energy in the concrete making activities of your house example (gas for the concrete trucks, power for the concrete plant) are examples of non eco-efficiency. However, your concrete house can be a good example of green building. Eventually, all the concrete in your house could be up-cycled and crushed into material for another home, or reused for pavement, fill, etc.
When we think green, you can't just think all or nothing (though some may). Our profession needs to think long-term. The book Cradle to Cradle was written by an architect and environmental chemist. It is a book that promotes the idea of re-thinking how we make things (in our case houses). We could have a significant impact on our environment and future by changing our processes.
Don't forget the useless shutters and the white picket fence!
Just worked at a condo where they had two pairs of shutters, but touching, (like each pair was closed over a (non-existent) window) just screwed to the outside wall with vinyl siding around them.
I'll nibble on this a little bit.
I'm an Energy Star builder, most of our homes rate at 50 to 63% more efficient than code, been doing passive solar since 1977. We won NAHB aging in place design custom home of the year in 2005 and took second place for Green Custom home of the year in 2006. So you could call me deep green.
And I am working on a volunteer basis with the NAHB Green Building Initiative to get production builders to certify homes they crank out at 100 to 350 units per year. These homes are cheap (sell with the land and all infrastructure for $160K) and frankly they are ugly and while significantly more well built than the competition they are not anything I would want to call home. So how can I justify certifying them as green?
Basically in my busiest year I will produce four homes. As good as I do I really cannot have a very big impact on global warming, or the asthma epedemic, or the McMansionization of America. But through the Green Building Initiative I can influence hundreds (and we're working with Newland Communitees to do 6,000) new homes to go Energy Star and Green with indoor air quality, site design, storm water containment, resource efficiency, potable water and sewage reduction, and VOC reduction. Am I watering down my green credentials by allowing these half-committed builders to certify green? I don't think so.
If you are an energy star builder you no doubt are aware of what the DOE did to the rules of the game last July. Suddenly it is going to be a lot tougher for me to certify at 50% better than code. I had to get knowledgable about how to do an airtight house that still provided 7.5 cfm of make-up air per occupant. The same things will be happening with green building certifications. Get them in at an artificially low entry lavel and slowly increase the requirements.
And if you are an energy star builder you know what happens to your team when you start getting a numerical score on every house you build. Why were we 49% better than code on this house but 61.5% better on that one? what would it cost to get to 65% better than code? Did Jeff seal that first floor bathtub yet? better do it or it'll show up on the blower door test!! Is there some way we could incorporate a Variable Speed Zoned Bypass HVAC on this design rather than two heat pumps?
You don't really study for the test if your not getting a grade. By bringing as many builders into green certification programs as we possibly can we are creating a situation where comparable houses can be ranked on a seven point Green certification grading scale. Then we just let the marketplace work to solve the global warming problem.
Now if we could just get the price of gas up to $4.00 a gallon we'd really have something!