I used to work with an old timer who said,you can be a good electrician in 1 year
a good plumber in 2 years,a good mason in 3 years but it takes a lifetime to be a
good carpenter. After 35 yrs. in the business I agree.It takes time to be exposed
to all the many aspects of building,not to mention keeping up with new building
technology.trends & tools.My question to all of you is why are carpenters on the
low end of the pay scale? As another old timer used to say to the various trades
on site(I’M BUILDING THE DAMN THING,YOU ALL ARE JUST MAKING HOLES IN IT!)
Talk it up Thanks
Replies
Well, if you follow the progression carpenters get to be general contractors, thereby jumping the pay scale thing. Plus, in a typical job situation we sit onsite for a whole lot longer than any of those other guys. Job security has to count for something, heh, heh.
Some carpenters have little interest in becoming a GC...some of us just want to master the carpentry trade.
Some carpenters have little interest in becoming a GC...some of us just want to master the carpentry trade.
Amen. I'd love to do nothing but build cool stuff for nice people.
Each year I've become more aware of just how much the deck is stacked against a good solo carp, especially when client's budgets tighten up.
Each year I've also gained a little more appreciation for the benefits of taking on the GC role in larger projects. Personally, it allows me to do the type of carpentry I enjoy and decide how to have others do the stuff i don't care for.
As you know good design in finish work is art and function combined. As a carp doing a lot of finish work you are probably picking up more ideas and developing better judgment for not only the part you are working on, but the project as a whole. As a GC you'd be more able to mold the entire process, the overall design, which translates down to the daily work needed to get it done.
It could be argued you and I aren't much different, I simply take on a project with a wider scope of activities in addition to the carpentry, help the subs meet the clients' expectations and make a little extra money as a tradeoff for putting bags on 7-1/2 hours a day instead of 8.
Good building!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
You've obviously never been a general contractor.
Time to start boning up on the difference of cash flow and overhead vs profit.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
why are we on the low end of the pay scale?
because there are too many carpenters with 2 years experience trying to pass themselves off as journeymen
I think there are a few electricians here who may not agree with that statement... :)
Did'nt mean to belittle the other trades,but you gotta admit without carpenters
you would have nowhere to drill holes.
Yeah, that's why I put the smiley face in my first post - you hardly ever hear someone saying their trade is the easiest one.
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Edited 2/9/2008 7:42 pm by BarryE
good one
don't sell yourself short
yours was funny too
bored?
or
posting under the influence?
Barry E-Remodeler
"Did'nt mean to belittle the other trades,but you gotta admit without carpenters you would have nowhere to drill holes."I'm a carpenter by trade, so I have a vested interest in the wages of carpenters. Still, using your logic, excavators and concrete guys should get paid more than carpenters because we building on their foundations placed in the holes they dug.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I got to be a good carpenter in only 30 years, I been coasting the last four...
What'd you skip?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Now ya got me worried...
Don't matter, I've already forgotten most of what I did know, too late for me, save yurself...
I'm stil trying to be a good carpenter. Got the roofing down pat, then did a lot of tile and painting too, got shanhaied into a bunch of masonry and concrete....I don't guess I really have enough time left in my life to become a good carpenter.
Might make carpenter, but good is elusive
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Might make carpenter, but good is elusive
Sometimes when you make a tongue in cheek comment, it comes back to bite you in a different cheek.
I'll never stop trying to be a better carpenter than I am. I wouldn't even call myself one for many years. But I am a carpenter now, not sure exactly when it happened, but I know it took a while. It took a lot of learning and trying, and making lots of mistakes and fixing them.
I'm pretty sure you've been a carpenter for some time, and you know as well as I that if you are a carpenter, you are good, that's the minimum.
Good carpenters just never quit trying to be better.
And, you're right, probably not enough time left to get there.
One reason is that plumbing and electrical trades are more likely to be unionized, and licensed...this seems to have a link to value attributed to the trade (there are certainly exceptions).
Still doesn't seem right. I know my tool collection as a carpenter is a larger investment than most trades.
Larger tool collection,larger responsibility& less pay.
Something in that statement doesn't add up. :-)
Hell, I hear that!
I have more plumbing tools than my plumber - better electrical tools than my electrician - And that's all they do. No shop, no carp, no concrete, no prep paint and finish, No bobcat and incidental site work, no metalfab,....Then I throw in carp tools and it's no contest. It's no contest when I pick up the phone.
It must be all that they know, Except, half the time I call and they say " I'm swamped, just do it and I'll cover the permit, you know what you're doing."
I still call though.
And residential people need to remember what they don't have any clue about - commercial and industrial.
You are right though, around here I can't take a test and test out of any of the mechanical trades - I would have to shut down my business and serve apprenticeships for the people I hire.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Some others factors may give plumbing and electrical work a financial leg up on carpenters is the "newness" of these trades...in the not too distant past they were luxuries and people are still more likely to splurge on an expensive plumbing fixture or home theater than on nice woodwork.There is also more chance for plumbing or electrical emergencies...mess up and you get a flood or a fire.There are not too many carpentry emergency calls in the middle of the night...thank gawd!
I agree.
I don't begrudge anyone.
Run your own race, do what you enjoy, do it to your best ability, challenge yourself, learn everything you can related to what you do, you'll be happy.
And then don't stop there, learn more.
Maybe I could make more as a plumber - but pipes bore me.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I have more plumbing tools than my plumber - better electrical tools than my electrician - And that's all they do.
*chuckle*
Aint that the truth!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Good, comprehensive, carpenters make more than the people you lament.
Time in don't make skills learned.
Bad attitudes trump better pay.
Been on all sides of all trades - do well.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I am a GC & have been involved in all the trades & do make decent money.
I'm just speaking about the general situation of my sawdust brothers.
You'd do better as a GC if you paid attention to details - that one's free.
Little things like filling out your profile. Just click on your name and make something up, - or tell the truth and get beneficial feedback to your concerns - that one's free too.
As far as looking out for all carpenters just because they show up with a toolbelt, and hang in there long enough to make it to payday, I dis agree. Smart people who strive to learn the trade and expand their horizons, be efficient, work within all the parameters of creating a building seem to get paid very well. ( and for a longer peiod of time than most of the mechanical trades - as brought up by someone else)
I know sparkies and plumbers who just do their jobs and make an ok living - I know serious carp who double and triple them - and then there are the people who think they are carps who make laborer's wages because that's what they are.
It's all what you want to make of it. Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
The reason carpenters make less is that we have the most creative portion. We get rewarded in other ways. Electricians and plumbers have to make more as compensation for endless hours of repetitive work, much like factory workers.
Good carpenters are admired and respected for their artistic talent. If an electrician is excellent, the light comes on when you flip the switch. If the plumber is superb, the toilet functions properly.
That's why carpenters make less money, because virtually everyone would like to build their own home and many people dabble in our profession as a hobby. Ever see a magazine called "Fine Plumbing"? I'll eat your peaches, mam. I LOVE peaches!
Thanks to all for the feedback.
I know as a carp/cabinet maker that I make more money then the residential electricians and plumbers. However I don't make anywhere near as much as a union/commercial elec or plumber. My company charges $54 an hour for my time, electricians and plumbers, at least for residential, get somewhere around $45.
When you move up to comercial electrical and plumbing they get much more then the union carp, something that hasnt really kept up in this area, not sure why? Maybe because around here union carps dont get a lot of real carpentry type stuff, certainly not the type of stuff I'm exposed to so maybe that makes for less demand, not real sure.
If money was my only concern I'd be switching occupations, well actually I would have done it a long time ago!
Doug
Im in it for the outfits myself, Plumbers are greasy dirty looking and sparkys look good but there kinda on the GAAY side, I get to put a pencil behind my ear and get to smell like sawdust, That drives the wimmen crazy.
LOL, you slay me!
& not in a ghey whey either
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Carpentry attracts more guys on a gut level than the other trades. Working with wood, building houses and other useful things makes our trade more interesting to kids and young adults.
So the law of supply and demand takes effect. With more young guys wanting to be carpenters than plumbers or electricians, the wage scale suffers accordingly.
I think ya hit it on the head.
More people call themselves carpenters= less $
What is it about wood that people think it's easy?
About 15 or so years ago, I had just started a new job and on the second day the owner of the company was installing trim and caulking some badly mitered joints. "Caulk is a carpenter's best friend," he said as I walked by. I had another job a few days later. I wanted to learn to be the absolute best carpenter that I could be and knew that I would learn nothing from him. It doesn't matter how many times that I've done something, I almost always learn something new on every job.
.
this is actually one of the first questions that interested me when i found "Breaktime"---something like 10 years ago( can it REALLY be that long?)
Frankly- It has always amazed me that here I am surrounded by guys who have such tremendous skills--TOTALLY eclipsing my own--and yet this money thing crops up time and again
for the record- i am just a dumb roofer-but I settled on the following explanations
as carpenters-you know to much--you are generalists. at anytime the very great majority of your talents and knowledge are not being used because your abilities are spread out over a wide range of areas. Other trades are more specific--the more specialized-the more efficient and profitable you can be.
also-as carpenters--there are too many things outside your controll adversley impacting your earnings---you are much more at the mercy of the economy.
this past week--2 of my neighbors had their gas lines go out.----those gas lines MUST be replaced---ASAP--KaChing!!!!!!!--- compare that to any of a dozen carpentry projects I have needing done on my house-ALL of them can be postponed indefinitely
also--as carpenters--there is no real bottom to the wage scale---it can almost always go lower---and you have guys barely competent as drywallers, vinyl siding hangers or dare I say roofers--constantly poaching on your turf. electricians and plumbers are largely protected by that wonderfull thing called a license-which at least sets a minimum bar
( personally- as a roofer- I am protected by that wonderfull thing---fear of heights--which limits the people i have to compete against and prevents most home owners from attempting most of my work)
my apologies for the next statement- but most carpenters are positioned as a commodity. compare that to how jim blodgett or Basswood are positioned. I bet Basswood--has his GC's----arrangeing to a certain extant THEIR schedules in order to have Basswood trim out their products---and I KNOW I would be prepared to wait indefinitely in order to adjust MY schedule in order to have a jim blodgett work on my home--- both of those guys have positioned themselves as anything BUT a commodity.
Best wishes, all,
stephen
Sounds about right.
Seems that the wannabe carps are the ones putting themselves out of business. They want to make a living being a carp ( with or without the skillset ). So they go into busines and quickly try to get work by undercutting all the other newbies and low level hacks. Effectively lowering their own pay to a point that noone else will work for. Or can.
So they don't last too long. They just come into the fray, screw it up worse, and leave. Although the people who hire them are just as bad. I actually find it entertaining.
It's also interesting to see all the aluminum ladders on luggage racks around here when Jeep lets a group of guys go.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Stephen,Wow, nice compliment. There are plenty of people here who are more highly skilled than me, but I am always trying to learn and improve my craft. BT is a good continuing ed. program.A funny thing happened last week. Two of the only builders here who are still busy are talking at a CoC lunch or something. The high end builder is going on about how good his trim guy is, but he would not say my name (like you can keep that a secret in a town this size). The other guy, figures out that it was me, but won't let on that he knows...he tries to keep a good poker face...because the week before he lined me up to trim all his projects for the rest of the year. He told me this on Friday he thought it was rather amusing.Fortunately they are both good guys and neither has a lock on me, but both will tolerate me working with the other...'cause they want what I offer. It is strange to be booked into '09 when many here are begging for work. I still can't believe it... ...I'm finally busy enough that I don't have to return phone calls, if I don't feel like it <G>Just kidding. I do work on being a good businessman too--though I have to work harder at that stuff. Carpentry is a passion. Officework is like a big PT splinter.
"and you have guys barely competent as drywallers, vinyl siding hangers or dare I say roofers--constantly poaching on your turf. electricians and plumbers are largely protected by that wonderfull thing called a license-which at least sets a minimum bar"I think you hit on the biggest factor here. We have all seen the guys fresh out of vo-tech schools who come on the job for a few years, learn to do a little sheetrocking, some siding, some framing and a little trim work.
Then they go and hang a shingle for their own business and they can actually make a go of it without any kind of qualifying license. Some of them are good, a few very good. But there are a whole bunch of them who do mediocre work on homes that don't deserve that kind of work and they can low ball the hell out of jobs, hire illegals and incompetence, and in general make the rest of our craft look really bad. Probably a good 25% of my work is coming in after the fact some years later and righting what was done wrong in the first place costing the customer a lot of money. Unlicensed and unqualified. Even though I get work from these types, this is what I lament.The field of carpentry in some ways has dualism built into it. On the one hand you can do as mentioned above, have a few years training, a modicum of skills, and make a living never going beyond what they know of the trade, or...(and here's the big one), caring.On the other hand it can take a lifetime to really master the trade, and I think that's because carpentry involves so many different areas. There's framing, finishing, flooring, cabinet making..I include this because a good carpenter should be able to make some sort of furniture or at least built ins, form work, sheet rocking, window and door installations, woodworking, and the list goes on. The other thing is that product changes so rapidly anymore.There are people here in this forum who are real masters of their trade that I couldn't hold a candle to. But what they are masters of is one or two area. I hold a great deal of admiration for these folk.I remember this old union carpenter I did a job with one time tell me about the time he went to Japan. Apparently over there, the master carpenter hold a great deal of esteem. It is a lifetime commitment. You start when you are young, maybe 17 or so and spend 20 years learning. You spend the next 20 doing and leading. Then you spend the last 20 years teaching.
You mention product changes. That is so true.
I know I tend to be old school, but I still see what's going on around me. Between the different woods like borate, PT, CCA, then the different underlayment papers synthetic vs. tarpaper etc., types of insulation, then sidings, trim boards in different materials, decking boards... You need a couple days a month just to follow what's being made and why.
People need to take the time to really learn it. Sometimes I feel sorry for the architects. They have less choice - they have to learn it. If they mess up with a bad choice, call the malpractice carrier.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I've long thought that there are three basic premise that determine you're income, the first is, How many people you affect. The second is How profoundly you affect them. The third is the perception of How easily you can be replaced.
Bill Gates affected virtually everyone in the industrialzed world profoundly, and has become wealthy because of it.
The heart surgeon can affect only one person at a time,but he affects that person profoundly. Generally he will become wealthy because of this. Neither is easily replaced.
A carpenter will never affect great masses of people. A carpenters work will not affect people profoundly. So the only means to greater compensation is to rise above the common workman and become that person that cannot be replaced easily.
Buyers are becoming more sophisticated in large part due to the media and availability of information on the internet. These people understand they must pay more to get more. These are the customers you want. Is your reputation up to the task?
rlrefalo,
that's a good way to look at it.
stephen silbiger wrote a book in which he talks about much the same thing.
suppose you have 2 kids--you educate one as a doctor-and one as a lawyer.
the doctor---will do very well--but his earnings are typically limited--he is,however skilled,--essentially a glorified tradesman--- much like a high priced car mechanic--his earnings are typically limmited to what HE can personally do with his hands
but the kid you sent to law school------- MUCH more upside earning potential.-- he can make partner in a law firm--or start his own----he can employ MANY others--lawyers,paralegals etc.-and really the sky is the limit--the surgeon is much more limmited.
stephen
I'll say a word for the plumbers and electricians.
What have carpenters had to do in keeping up with changing technology in building, that compares with:
I was thinking along those lines as well. There is no "one size" fits all answer for the question IMO
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.