First, I would like to thank everyone for the welcomes and numerous replies. I am glad to be here…and involved.
Secondly, I have a few thoughts, or opinions, to share about some of your comments.
I currently work on a crew of 4 carpenters(3 men and myself) and one full time helper. I am the second highest paid, being upsalaried only by the foreman. We do build from the ground up. This means that I am not only looked at as an experienced trim carpenter, but I am also expected to dig, spread gravel, frame, shingle, set-up and work off scaffolding, install windows and doors, lay stone and tile and yes, I am expected to tote lumber just like the others. All of these tasks I welcome. Oh, and just so everyone knows, I use the porta-potty just like everyone else 🙂
I am not a big woman, weighing only 120 and 5’5″. (Ihave a pic posted on this site) I am, however, very strong and have a great deal of upper body strength. I do not work out, but I do work hard. And smart. I pay close attention to details and am constantly searching for new methods and better ways of accomplishing tasks that I find difficult. (This is one reason I am here, reaching out)
I accidently fell into the trade. In the early 90’s I was studying architecture at U of Miami, when on a visit to western NC, I was given the opportunity to design a house. Realizing I didn’t need a $100,000 (or more) degree to be able to design, I left school and joined the crew that was building the house I designed. I started by digging step-down footers and ended by installing all the trim in the house. The rest is history.
I have worked with a few women through the years, mostly in larger cities. There are very few that actually have years of experience, but I have met several that are interested and want to learn. Most of the these curious women move on to other construction related work. I am aware that very few women choose to stick to the field work. (I live in Boone, NC and know of no other women that are working in the area)
I posed this topic, because I was curious to others opinions and knowledge. I have earned the respect of my co-workers by working hard and continually educating myself on this wonderful craft.
What I do not understand, putting aside physical differences, why men think that just because you are a female you are not capable of having similar experiences. For me, it is about doing something really well, gratification of actually doing and being a part of something, and the excitement of always learning. Some of my best experiences have been coming home exhausted, knowing that someone, someday will be enjoying and sharing with others, all that hard work.
My philosophy,and reward, is that years from now, someone will look at something I have constructed or had a hand in constructing…and ponder the time, detail and craftmanship of a good….female…carpenter. Just like a lot of you, it’s a pride thing.
Boots: which ones? Wolverine, Browning, Red Wing….and Carhaart has finally put out a line of women’s work clothes….don’t know if they will hold up as well as my men’s double knees though….
For all you guys…if I was hired onto your crew, what could I do that would make our working together a better experience for you?
Thanks again…sorry my post is so lengthy.
Replies
Im gonna give you the first piece of advice.
You wont get much done on a subject making new threads on the same subject . Its better if you keep that information in one thread kinda like a file folder . You got some people interrsted and some of us helped get people over there . Now you ran this one on the same subject and no one sees it from the other one . As a thread gets started, messages are sent to one another and that brings people back in to the thread. There might be several messages out at one time in waiting . That causes flow of a thread on a subject. This breaks it up.
Again welcome to breaktime .
Tim
Thanks...a newbie mistake.
Congrats on being in the trade. I have known a few guys that still have that sexest attitude that you don't belong in the trade. I worked with a female when I was doing foundations about the same stature as you and she out worked all the guys on the crew. But I must say that in 20 years there have not been many I have seen in the trade. Not sure why.
"what could I do that would make our working together a better experience for you?"
Just be you
No whining
If it's something you can't do just say so, no excuses. There is many things us guys can't do by ourselves
Don't make things male or female and don't let others make things male/female
Just be part of the team
I understand Tim's point, but at the same time, the psychology of women in the trades is a thread in itself.
I was contacted a couple of months ago by a lady who was doing her thesis on "why women go into traditional male fields". She had interviewed female police officers, fire fighters and a couple of construction workers.
I told her that I was in it for a number of reasons. Carpentry pays a lot better than waitressing and I had two kids to support.
My dad and brother told me that girls were worthless, and I had to prove to myself that we aren't by being just as good as a guy in a guy's arena.
I'm good with my hands and refuse to "wimp out" when the going gets tough.
I get tired of having to prove myself every time I walk onto a new job site, but I guess every new "guy" gets that. They watch me for a couple of weeks and when they see I'm not going to get hurt or act like a prima dona, they back off. There's always one guy though who refuses to believe it's possible for a woman to do this stuff.
I appreciate your input. I agree with your first couple of weeks watching over you theory. Luckily I have been working with the same crew for a little over a year and a half. What I have found is that one difficult guy isn't stubborn, he just feels threatened. (this is specific to my situation)
It's too bad that there sometimes remains a bias to a useful, hard working team member. I would like to think that the more women talk about there loyalty to the trade the more likely the atmosphere toward them will change.
I hope that more women will see it as an option.
What I have found is that one difficult guy isn't stubborn, he just feels threatened. (this is specific to my situation)
All the people on the crew that lack self esteem and aren't driven will feel threatened. And they should because those of us who apply ourselves will ALWAYS pass them by. And when I look over my shoulder, that same guy will be threatened by the next rookie on the crew.
It's not about gender. Its just their personality.
I would like to think that the more women talk about there loyalty to the trade the more likely the atmosphere toward them will change.
The negative atmoshpere that you envision is only in your head. Talking about loyalty to the trade will do nothing. Skilled tradesmen abhor "talk". They know that the talkers are not the doers. If you want to create a more positive atmoshpere, stop talking, stop trying to prove that women can do something and just do it!
Nothing speaks louder than results. You want to impress someone about your framing skill....just frame the wall better and faster than the best framer on the crew. End of subject....because then you get to jabber....at them!
> I was contacted a couple of months ago by a lady who was doing her thesis on "why women go into traditional male fields". I would have asked her "Why not?" People should do what they're good at, enjoy, and can make a reasonable living at. Whether it's a guy dancing in a tutu or a girl being a roustabout, my hat's off to them if they do a good job.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
You have the ability to see things in 3 dimensions and in color...and on multiple levels...
Actually, my color vision sux -- just ask my wife.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
My dad and brother told me that girls were worthless, and I had to prove to myself that we aren't by being just as good as a guy in a guy's arena.
Two mistakes here.
1) listening to the naysaysers. Ignore them. They are projecting.
2) believing that it is a guy's arena. Why would you state it that way? Wood is wood...it doesn't know what sex is assembling it.
I get tired of having to prove myself every time I walk onto a new job site, but I guess every new "guy" gets that. They watch me for a couple of weeks and when they see I'm not going to get hurt or act like a prima dona, they back off. There's always one guy though who refuses to believe it's possible for a woman to do this stuff.
You only have to prove yourself to one guy: the guy that signs the checks.
Everyone is always angling to position themselves in a crew. Every crew is like a soap opera: every guy thinks he's smarter, better and more productive than the others. It has nothing to do with gender. Because you are gender sensitive, you attibute the normal pecking order politics to gender but you are wrong. It is nothing more than normal everyday stupid psychological warfare. You gotta be tough out there...mentally.
For instance, you will always find one agitator. They will attempt to probe for your sensitive area. You can't let them know you are scared of snakes or spiders or are sensitve about your spouse or kids..or your mom or dad. When they are going for the jugular, you have to just roll with the puhches and laugh. Example, when they'd start to ask me something stupid about my teenage daughter, I'd tell them that she was really pretty and she probably wanted to roll in the hay with him and all his buddies. I'd ask him if he wanted my wife and young neice too.
End of subject. He wasn't getting under my skin with that one. I never let anyone get under my skin in the three decades I was out on a jobsite. You can't afford to let anyone know your weaknesses because they will haunt you forever.
It's not about gender...it's just a low class of redneck blue collar workers out there.....usually.
There's always one guy though who refuses to believe it's possible for a woman to do this stuff.
There's always a guy who hate blacks too. And a guy who loves horses. And a guy who likes to tell jokes. And a guy that is religious. And blah, blah, blah. That's life. You don't have to prove anything to that guy because no matter how hard you try, in the end, he'll still refuse to belive that it's possible for a woman to do this stuff. Big deal...my grandpa didn't believe anyone landed on the moon. Nobody cares!
I can tell you've gathered these insights from years of observation!
And there's always someone who feels like they're being picked on for whatever reason.There's the guy who calls in sick every Monday who doesn't get fired because he's the lead carp's nephew or drug supplier, so a lot of people resent him, but some guys just laugh about it.I've tried to avoid the victim mentality, but I guess I have a bit of that. The only thing you really have control of in life is how you react to things you can't control.
The only thing you really have control of in life is how you react to things you can't control.
Exactly! No one victimizes you...you victimize yourself.
I don't care about the guy that calls in sick on Monday. It's probably a lot better if he'd call in Tuesday too. And Wednesday. I don't care!
I had a partner and we framed custom homes alone. House after house, we'd put em up. Then, he'd go sailing in the Carribean for two months. So, if there were any houses to frame, I'd frame them alone. I don't care! Its not about you...it's about me and I'm not letting anyone get it over on me.
"The only thing you really have control of in life is how you react to things you can't control."My wife & I used to take a lot of self-help seminars back in the 70's & 80's like EST etc. A lot of the stuff was BS & designed around self promotion, but there were a few golden nuggets we took with us that will be there for the rest of our lives. One of the big ones was almost verbatim what you just said and we have learned to live by it. It's huge.
Glad to see others with it.
Don't know where the original quote came from, but pretty sure that many people come to the same conclusion if they're honest with themselves.One version was from a gentleman who was a prisoner in the Gulag in the 30's and 40's in Russia.I'm terrible with quotes, but the gist is that even though they were doing everything possible to break his spirit; torture, starvation etc.; his attitude was "even though you've taken away every scrap of control I have over my life, you can't control how I choose to react to the situation"
Like AKAblue said, it's all in your head.
If you and I are thinking about the same thing, it was from a book by Viktor Frankl called "Man's search for meaning"."Everything can be taken from a man but ...the last of the human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way."
Yep, I vaguely recall that too.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Thank you! Yes that is it...
Pretty heavy reading for a truss guy...(no insult intended)
just proves what they say about covers and books.
"Pretty heavy reading for a truss guy"
I know you were kidding, but -
I try to remember stuff like that, and teach it to my Sons. Hopefully some of it stuck.
Here's another line I've passed on to them:
You wouldn't worry so much about what people thought about you if you realized how little they did.
That's a great one...wish I'd heard that sooner.It's taken 40 years to stop caring what people think of me and realize that the people whose opinions of you matter are the ones who get the facts before formulating an opinion.
Here's another one I taught my Sons:
Never date a woman who can kick your a$$.
LOL
How about "never give a woman a reason to kick your ####"
So - Are ya now spending more time on BT than on FaceBook ???(-:
Sign on a display of "To my one and only true love" Valentine cards: "Now available in multi-packs."
Yep...
Something's still not right about Facebook. Reminds me of Twitter...why do I need to see 10 pictures of myself on every screen and hear someone tell about every minute detail of their day or their every random thought? (Was going to use another term that was less polite) Those things are for people who don't have a life...
Unlike BTrs...:)
"Those things are for people who don't have a life...
Unlike BTrs...:)"
Exactly. I can quit any time I want to.
(-:
Could someone ever get addicted to counseling? If so, how could you treat them?
Ron, that tagline might be better stated: "You wouldn't worry so much about what people thought about you, if you realized how seldom they did so."..Electric bike...
Getting there is not the goal. Enjoying getting there, is..You are always welcome at Quittintime
It's a great one to remember when you get into certain situations.
I think the quote we use is, "you can't change a person, the only thing you can change is what your reaction is to them".Basically the same thing.
Welcome kbur,
My dearly departed grandfather taught me the basics and I garnered the rest along the way from top tradesmen. One thing I always remembered story's of was granny was always there to support whatever they wanted. They built their first house during their engagement and added onto it shortly after they were married. They built a storage building and their retirement cabin together. Granny never needed to prove a thing. She simply did what she was supposed to do and that was to build whatever the family needed with the utmost in quality. Not necessarily the most expensive but the best fitting joints etc.
My own DW and I built this together along with our daughter who was a teen at the time. So on my job I had two women.....DW with fluffed hair at 5' shhh 107 lbs.....DD 5'2" at 105 bench press 125 lbs.......
View ImageView Image
DW put in as many hours as I did. Only labor hired....a few guys to help me poor the monolithic slab because I knew it would set faster than we could finish it and the fiberglass portion of insulation because it was only $200 more than I could buy the material "only" for. But, we framed, panel insulated, sealed, plumbed, wired, drywalled and mudded, painted, sided, windowed, doored, trimmed, floored, HVAC and set the units (friend pulled the vacuum and charged), built cabinets from scratch, hand troweled concrete counters, tiled the baths and whatever else it took to move in.
Don't worry about other peoples ideas, just show up and do your best. There's always some idiot/jerk in the field regardless of your gender. I suspect 90% of any negativity you deal with is the same idiots I've worked with before. Most gentlemen in the trades will get over the gender issue once you've sent the new guy for the board stretcher or concrete softener.
View Image Dag gumit, I cut that thing three times and it's still too short
What could you do?
A tough question for someone that has worked alone for over 20 yrs. All I ever ask is to show up, and this from subs................seemingly what they should do in the first place.
And from my working on crews, that's all you can ask. Showing up is half the battle. What you do afterwards is the other 75 %.
You are in Boone? know anyone (a good masonry heater guy) around Burnsville? Beautiful country you have there.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
OH, there you go! Not only leaving attached pictures but embedding them too...keep rubbing it in just cause you can.
Yo woodway,
OH, there you go! Not only leaving attached pictures but embedding them too...keep rubbing it in just cause you can.
It's only cause I don't hate Bill Gates. Embrace the takeover. Wallow in the grand empire called IE 8......<grin>
View Image
Thanks Pedro...that was a great share. I really appreciate all the support I am finding here. Truely a great bunch of people. Thanks again.
Hi kbur,
Thanks Pedro...that was a great share. I really appreciate all the support I am finding here. Truely a great bunch of people. Thanks again.
Yeah most of us are just a bunch of good ol' boys and gals but watch out for those with the star next to their name.....Hardee's bribes them with burgers to be tattle talers.....
Jest kiddin' we have a lot of fun around here and the stars are the volunteer moderators. New concept using folks that have been around here a number of years.
They're appreciated more than they know but I love to harass them just the same!
On Edit: Look at a message either from or to you, click on your name and you'll see your profile appear. You can fill in your info there. Personally it's nice to have some general info so folks can advise appropriately.....example....you need a new AC unit...it's going to be different for the NC mountains than for FL so give enough general info that will help folks help you but I wouldn't go so far as to endanger your privacy....in other words no SS#'s but credit card #'s are acceptible <grin>
Once you've completed your info and saved it....double check it a little while later. Sometimes the changes don't take place immediately.....on some occasions it may drop the changes altogether.....simply fill out again and submit if it drops it.
View Image A Hardee's mushroom burger in exchange for a tale of two cities
Edited 8/22/2009 4:56 pm ET by PedroTheMule
I worked with two different girls in my framing beginnings and had one work for me framing and another in remodeling. The truth is I was single and still am for the last 27 years and I ended up having an affair with two of these girls. The other 2 ended up having multiple affairs with other guys on the crew, from the sites etc. And then there was alchohol involved at some gatherings...well anyway it was a problem for the types of employees I had. By the tones of your post, you sound like you have more sense than these girls did....but you asked and thats my story , popular or not. They all were good workers.
Edited 8/21/2009 10:15 pm ET by shellbuilder
For all you guys...if I was hired onto your crew, what could I do that would make our working together a better experience for you?
All I would ask is that you refrain from viewing everything as a gender battle. Just accept things for what they are: you are you, I am I and the other guys are other guys and gender doesn't have anything to do with anything.
So, what does that mean? For me, if I'm running the crew, I am an equal opportunity employer, in every sense of the word. If you can produce, I love you. If you can't produce, and you don't make any effort, I hate you and you are fired. I don't care what color your skin, I don't care what is between your thighs. I do care if you are an idiot and I will fire you no matter what gender you are.
You probably should understand that you might be challenged to see how thick or thin your skin is. It happen to all of us. If it happens to you, and someone uses your gender to try to get under your skin, don't take it as anything else than what it is...it's just an attempt to get under your skin.
And please, don't try to prove that females can do it. I already know that females can do it. Carpentry and building does not require a male reproduction organ. If it does, I'm sorry because I must have missed that chapter in carpentry school.
Don't expect to win the support of ANYONE, much less ALL OF THEM?!!! There is always a pecking order and it has nothing to do with gender. When you have a crew of 7 guys, there is always an alpha male and you can win that spot. Just know more and do more and know how to get the others to do more and follow you. There's no book on how to do it, it just happens. Those of us who prefer to lead, lead. It's got nothing to do with gender, race, fresh breath or hair length.
In a nutshell, stop trying to prove something and just start enjoying the experience. To heck with them all, let them worry whether they can match up to you. In my first year, I knew I was going to be better than all of the journeymen on my crew. I remember telling one of them when he barked at me to get him some nails "go get them yourself and watch how you talk to me....I'm going to be your boss some day". I then laughed as he fumed because he couldn't get me to go get him a box of nails.
It's got nothing to do with gender.
"In my first year, I knew I was going to be better than all of the journeymen on my crew. I remember telling one of them when he barked at me to get him some nails "go get them yourself and watch how you talk to me....I'm going to be your boss some day". I then laughed as he fumed because he couldn't get me to go get him a box of nails."
kbur -- while jimAKA may very well have been right THAT day, I think it would be wise to read between these lines -- while clearly this approach may have worked in the short term, being humble along with steadfast and confident may be a better route long term -- particiularly when you incorporate the other challenges you might face in being a female in a male-dominated trade.
When I once made a very similar statement to a co-worker (in a after-hours setting at a keg party actually), I ended up on the floor after attempting a keg stand...my legs were being held by the guy I insulted...for about 2 seconds. At the time I hadn't learned that righteousness was not always best rubbed in the face of others. I've learned a lot since then.
"It depends on the situation..."
Hmmm...brings up a story...As an apprentice, worked on a bridge crew with an obnoxious guy who made frequent suggestive comments to I and the journeylady on the crew.Once he and I were working alone under the soffit and I thought I'd get back at him by making a little "comment" of my own. Years later working as a Journeyman on the crew on the bridges in Santa
Barbara, this guy shows up (was the Super's nephew) as a foreman.He put me on the crew that was building an extension for a sewer tunnel, and for a month we worked up to our ankles in raw sewage.Payback is a female dog.(I've told this story here before, don't remember why or when, but it fits this thread)
Edited 8/26/2009 12:52 pm by Jencar
He put me on the crew that was building an extension for a sewer tunnel, and for a month we worked up to our ankles in raw sewage.
On certain crews in New York, that guy would've taken a roller coaster ride in a padlocked porta-potty. He'd have never seen it coming and no one would know who did it afterwards. Not just an urban legend.
All that wisdom escaped me in my earlier years. Besides, the crew was the one that taught me my cockiness. I was just dishing out what they taught me.
Don't expect to see differences between yourself (a women) and the others in your crew (likely men). Two of the best and most revered home building companyies I know in the south bay area, I worked for one and our competition in the market was this one:
http://www.harrell-remodeling.com/
She runs a tight ship, writes columns in the local paper regarding home design is held in very high regard. If your anything like her, would you take the time to teach me, one of your employees, how you learned to do one or two particular tricks of the trade? She showed me one "trick" with a framing square that tripled my speed cutting blocking and doubled the accuracy too.
I respect your inquiry and it's a good one in and of itself. I sense a little bit of a chip but I could be wrong. I would take tips from Huntdoctor's post. Just join in. If you make a thorny crown cause initially you'll get labeled as a whiner.
"What I do not understand, putting aside physical differences, why men think that just because you are a female you are not capable of having similar experiences. "
As a very liberated male, what I'm also tired of is getting labeled as one of these types by women just because I am a different gender. It's been that way for several decades. It's not just the guys view that has to change.
"if I was hired onto your crew, what could I do that would make our working together a better experience for you?"
Do not flirt with the guys. Be timely, show me a work ethic and be professional about it. I ask no more no less of any guy.
If you are not able to do something or don't know how, ask for help. If you see someone who needs help or you could suggest a better way, then do that in a professional friendly manner. If they have a problem with that then let it go or have them bring it to the boss or foreman.
There is no chip, I assure you. I am just looking for others opinions of how I, as a team member, can better a situation if it arises. Just looking for some input from other tradesman. Work is work, but if I can do something to make others more comfortable and have production go smoother...I will make that effort. Thanks for the reply.
"if I was hired onto your crew, what could I do that would make our working together a better experience for you?"
You have already done a large part of it.
There is a saying that you should find a job that you love, and then you will never have to work another day in your life.
The cryptic meaning that the job wil be fun and rewarding instead of just work.
Your attitude to the job reminds me of that and is inspiring.
Do NOT ever leave us!
;)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
"The cryptic meaning that the job will be fun and rewarding instead of just work."I think you know the feeling of working with other people who enjoy working, and everything just clicks, and it's one of the best things in life.If you're into a couple of glasses of wine this Friday evening, that memory may make an old carpenter tear up! (makes me, anyway!)
Had my third beer this PM and earlier spent an hour talking with stepson on the phone about just this sort of thing. He said that he had never pictured himself doing carpentry more than a year or two but that was 12 years ago, and he now already has a pile of the good memories to see him thru the occasional rough job. He's a lad to be proud of.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Sounds like it! I'm sure you had something to do with that...
You got a good discussion going between my wife and me. We used to coordinate volunteers together for a low-income renovations organization. LOTS of female volunteers and mixed groups. Mostly unskilled (both genders). In general I'd say the women picked up the necessary skills more quickly and efficiently than the guys, worked together more effectively.
Since I've left the not-for-profit world I don't see too many women on jobsites. My painting contractor is a she and so are her crew. I know a couple who do custom building together with a crew under them. Both are carpenters. Sometimes I see college age women working as labor/assistant jobs for summer work.
Jobsite culture is often built on some bluster and hassling the new crew members and other trades on site. It gets pretty personal, as I'm sure you know. Everybody is in charge of building and maintaining a chunk of their own personal space. Sometimes it's creative tension and people egg each other on to quicker and/or better work. Sometimes it's just tension. I sometimes wonder whether women on the site feel as if they are being specially targetted because of gender. Generally I'd say no, but anything that makes a person stand out from the rest of the crew tends to be fair game.
The job of a new person on site, male of female, is to prove themselves competent and efficient at their job. Once that's done it's fine to start talking, either join in the hassle or work to minimize it and encourage some cooperation. But the talking comes after the work.
That's not how it was on our volunteer sites that I mentioned above - talking and teaching came first there, group dynamics were important, cooperation and encouragement were important. Most professional sites that I know are opposite - first work, then talk - everyone for themselves as much as possible. I wonder if that's one of the reasons for few women on jobsites.
j
If ya posted a picture I missed it. BTW - You never did fill out your profile...
There is a better way to do it. Find it.
May I ask where do I go to on the site to update the profile? I thought I had entered additional info, but I must not be in the right place. Could you advise me as to where this is on the site. Thank you.
You can click on your screen name wherever it shows up as a link. Or click onn this - I think it will work:http://forums.taunton.com/dir-app/bbCard/profile.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&uid=1881203087That will open a new window with your profile in it. Near the top left will be a link that says: "Change Profile".You oughta be able to figure it out from there.
Your skin is like silk.
For the sake of romance, let's ignore the fact that silk comes from a worm's butt, O.K.?
I wish I could say that women picked up the necessary skills more quickly. I had three, four or five work for me but none stayed. I was always hopeful because I was very keen on finding people that were detail oriented and for some reason I thought women might be better at it.
I think I drew that conclusion because about a thousand men failed LOL. I woulda give a monkey a chance if they applied!
As a female, I don't think any feathers will be ruffled if I say that we just aren't generally brought up to have mechanical skills.I was lucky to be a tomboy and my bro and I spent a lot of time riding bikes and building treehouses.
There wasn't anyone in my house that had mechanical skills. I developed my own, on my own. The difference between a female and me is that I'm not looking for a reason why I shouldn't have mechanical skills. They might be.
It's all between the ears.
Blue, I love what you've written in this post. Anyone who shows up on s site should be prepared to do one thing...carry their load. One person's load might be different from another's. I've only worked with two females in construction. One played "female" and it resulted in the guys treating her like a girl. She didn't last.The other played "construction worker" and the guys treated her like just another body on the jobsite. The funny thing is I've worked with tall guys, short guys, strong guys, guys with bad backs, guys that couldn't cut a straight line, guy's that couldn't pound a 16d in without bending a couple and then it still took them 8 whacks with the hammer to finally get one in straight, and guys who were afraid of heights so they'd never walk a top plate. The thing is, the good workers fit into the crew as a whole and exploit their individual strengths while staying away from their individual weaknesses. For a female, gender shoudn't be an excuse. It's not "I can't do it because I'm a girl". I know some pretty tall girls. It's "I can't do it because I'm not tall enough". Guys can be a problem as well when working with females. Some are chauvinistic, some are chivalrous. Both can be hindrances to the overall blending of a crew.I do a lot of solo work, so I've developed all sorts of tricks that take strength and height out of the equation.When guys and girls simply get to work instead of fretting over the differences in their genetalia, by god, things can be built!
I agree and I've had the same experience: everyone's loading and abilities are different. We all simply adjust to them...as long as no one is playing the victim. I've worked guys with 25# restrictions. They have to eat too!
Framing is all about leveraging lumber. I used to tell the guys.."the lumber is dead. It's not smart. Don't let the lumber outhink you." The strongest men were most often the stupidist. They'd do something stupid like loading stupid amounts onto their shoulders....
So, that brings me to this statement: "if you are physically weaker, you have to be mentall stronger." For more than a decade, I was very physically weak person becasue of lower disc problems. I never lifted or moved anything without giving it serious thought. I'm still that way today. I'm sure that more than 75% of the female population is much stronger than I right now but I'll still put the farm up against them in a race to stand up the house.
Some of the best words to live by came from a guy who could see I was having trouble with something on a job..."Don't let it kick your butt"Always gets me through!
woulda give a monkey a chance if they applied!>>>>>>>>>>>...
So that's what you think of me? I asked for a job last year and now you insult me, saying that you would hire a monkey!!>G<
Oops.
Wanna lay some shingles on top of the 175 degree tarpaper?
Nope. But I can do your job!>G<
<I wish I could say that women picked up the necessary skills more quickly. I had three, four or five work for me but none stayed. I was always hopeful>My experience was with groups of mostly unskilled volunteers who were busting it out for a week per group. Those who could deal with steep learning curves, intense collaboration, and lots of novelty did really well. We never got to see who was persistent or could put up with tedious, mundane brute labor. Recently I've been thinking that the construction trades turn off almost all women and lots of men with good potential because the most common road into the work is to start as a laborer and work into more skilled or leadership positions, maybe jumping off into self employment or contracting after a while. That willingness to tough it out in the labor trenches weeds out some really good, motivated people of both genders along with the riffraff. Other trades are in worse shape than carpentry, I think. How many good young stucco installers or brick masons do you know? Not more than a couple, I'd guess, and not many female at all. It's brute work for a long long time before you get to the interesting technical stuff in that field. j
I agree with you. It is a shame that the trade is loosing very talented people. But, I also notice that farmig is a dieing occupation as well...perhaps we owe it to the next generation to make this trade more appealing...just like the farmers have been forced to do.
I worked as a school counselor for 7 years
I tried to help each high school senior have a direction to go as far as a career
Not one time did I ever have a girl interested in construction or carpentry
Here are a few random thoughts.
I've would venture that 80% of the big decisions, on the jobs I work, are made by women. Ultimately they are in charge. The job I just finished was for a Minnesota Congresswoman... she had no problem making decisions. She was clearly in charge. Fortunately, she is smart, kind, and classy. In her absence, her daughter was in charge and has a similar skill set. The daughter also jumped right in and painted, cleaned, installed hardware, etc. Two of the hired painters were women too and both good workers.
I've also worked with a female plumber on the job recently.
Personally, I work in a field (carpentry) that my family and friends thought beneath me. I have a B.S. degree from Colorado State and was expected to be a member of the so called "professional class." I tried to make that work for many years... but it was not for me. I have a chip on my shoulder, and have worked very hard to be the best carpenter I can be (for myself and to a certain extent, to prove to friends and family that the trades can be a great career). At some gatherings, I am the token blue collar guy in a white collar world.
I was also not well accepted in the trades as the college grad. for many years. There, I was the white collar boy in the blue collar world. I never gave up and have proven myself (to myself and to both friends and family and other trades people.
Pressure to be good enough can be felt regardless of gender, race, class, etc. I turned it into a driving force to be better... not entirely healthy. We should just feel free to be who we are and do what it is we do best. Not sure if I would be my best if I did not feel that pressure though.
When I post my work here, it is no doubt partially motivated by a desire to feel approval of my peers... fortunately the work is good enough that I get mostly positive feelback. I like to think my primary motivation is to help others and give back to the trade (and I know that I make a valuable contribution in that way so their is an upside to my fishing for compliments :o) ).
This may not relate to how women feel in the trades, but I imagine there are similarities. Enough of my ramblings,
Bass
There have been alot of responses to my initial post, but yours has hit home a bit more than others (although I am grateful for all othe replies). I think somehow my post veered off course. I do not feel victimized. I don't believe I have ever said anything about not being able to do something because I am female, etc.etc. I simply was wondering how others are associating when a female finds her way onto the crew, or how people feel in general to females being in the trade.
Certainly there are diversities in this trade and isn't that a wonderful thing? Yes, right? I love my job and am glad to be involved with craftsmaen of all types and backgrounds. Learning something new everyday and striving, like all great artists/craftsmen to be better...or the best. :)
Thanks for your input.
No advice on gender issues, but i applaud your career move.
There should be more builders who are architects, and more architects who are builders.
> There should be more builders who are architects, and more architects who are builders. This is a truth in any discipline, and one reason why American business is having so many problems.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Yes...
I remember one incident very clearly that involved a cocky young engineer with a big degree who got "into it" with a stubborn old lead carp. Kevin took off his tool belt and walked off the bridge and all the other carps did the same.
Perhaps each should be required to walk, if only for a short time, in the other's shoes.
kbur..
Through too common experiance many women do not feel as you do and are willing to get by on being a female.
That is not automatic, because there are enough people out there willing to let performance be the judge not gender.
kbur:
My wife was one of the first women to complete an electrical apprenticeship out of Local 8 in Toledo, Ohio, twenty-eight years ago. She told me some stories that made me want to kick some co-worker #### and some that had me laughing.
Her back got her out of the tools, but she's now the Corporate Safety Director for the third largest rigging contractor in the states.
Interestingly enough, she recently had to tell one of her electrical journeyman mentors that if she had to warn him about wearing his saftey glasses again, she would have to fire him. This would be like having to fire your own father. He said "Squeak, (she'll always be an apprentice to him) I'll drag (quit) this job before you get the chance." and he did.
Hang in there,
Kowboy
all i want to see is the picture
Mike's going fishing!;)Don't forget your bait.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I keep a worm handy ! :)
lol...i have not figured out how to update my profile...but, I submitted a photo with my dog on the job site...ca't tell you how to get there...perhaps I will justthrow it in here????
throw it in I wanna see the women who has lasted among men so long. :)
To update your profile, just click on your name in a post, and wait for the profile page to come up. Then fill in what you want.
And like someone else said- please don't start multiple threads about the same topic. Chances are one will be deleted if you do. Plus its a lot more likely that just one thread will stay near the top, and be noticed.
Thank you.
I'm not in the trade, I'm just a wanna be DIYer.
But my wife is a Rabbi, and we know aaalllll about having to prove yourself. You being in a male dominated field that normally only works with other men you may not see this as much, but ironicly we've seen women being some of the worst people about gender roles. I.E. this is a mans job, what are you trying to do here? I wonder if you get any guff from women customers?
Tu stultus es
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Look, just send me to my drawer. This whole talking-to-you thing is like double punishment.
"we've seen women being some of the worst people about gender roles"Women with low self esteem are generally insecure (from experience)and can be just as competitive as men. I think that they feel threatened by a woman doing something very different than what's expected of them.
Some buy into the lie that women aren't cut out for this work.
insecure people have problems with authority figures no mater what the gender
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Point was that insecure people are competitive, so I guess that could cause an aversion to authority figures.
Our church (fairly large and progressive) is one of the few in the country where all three ministers are women. Associate, assistant and head. The congregation had to make a final vote on the head minister about a year ago when they were trying to fill the vacancy, and gender was a big issue. Ironically, it was some of the female members who were most concerned about a man not being in that position.
Actually, it is just the opposite of what you are thinking. I believe women are more willing to trust other women...go figure. But, in all hoesty, it cmes down to having a reputation of getting things done and getting them done on time and correctly. I do have a lot of women homeowners ask me how I do it...or comment that they are really amazed at the fact that I am out there standing strong against and with the boys.
It's been my observation that men interact with men differently from the way that women interact with women. Men tend to spar -- engage in false/stylized combat. Women tend to gossip/interact/emote with each other. It gets really screwed up sometimes (or maybe all the time) when men interact with women. The women want to chat, and the men want to arm wrestle. The man might toss out a playful insult that would roll off the back of another man, but the woman takes it to heart. And then she's upset when the man doesn't seem interested in talking.(Just as I write this I realize that in both interchanges it's the woman who ends up feeling hurt, and the man thinking "What did I do??". This isn't to criticize women for being "too sensitive" or anything, but simply the way the observation works out.)Another slightly different dynamic occurs when one party is tired/stressed. Men generally want to be quiet and "zone" a bit, while women tend to become especially chatty, wanting to talk out the stress they feel. (This is a case where the man is the "hurt" party, muttering to himself (if not shouting) "Woman, would you PLEASE SHUT UP!")I realize that these are generalizations that don't apply to every male or female, and that it's not a black/white division, but to me it's been a useful generalization that I apply in situations where I'm sensing a male-female communication breakdown.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I dont mind Woman carpenters as long as they just frame and trim the kitchen and bedroom.....
Ok thats bad......
But funny!
What I do not understand, putting aside physical differences, why men think that just because you are a female you are not capable of having similar experiences.
I have always respected independent women who know what they want and go about getting it openly, honestly and confidently. I believe that all men who possess similar character traits also respect those qualities highly in others and are willing to make room for such a woman in the trades, even though it tends to interrupt the male energy on the job.
At first, that kind of interruption may feel like an unnecessary foreign element so it's often met with some resistance and resentment. But it only takes a day or two of working with a capable, confident and non-combative woman to discover that her presence adds something to the predominantly male energy, modifying it in a way that, though it may cause some editing of vulgar language and humor, ultimately makes the job more pleasant and harmonious.
On the other hand, the building trades have always been a refuge for some of the more ignorant and obstinant males on the planet. We didn't all become carpenters because we felt good about working with wood and building homes for families.
There are a lot of us in the trades who fell throuh the rather large cracks in the public education system and/or came from dysfunctional families, thus ending up earning a living with our backs.
Some of those males have a built-in prejudice and chauvanism which is very difficult for a woman to defeat. A woman's presence on the job threatens their self image so...they react in certain limited and predictable ways. It's up to the woman to be prepared for that reaction and turn each opportunity to her benefit with well timed, humorous response.
So.."don't get mad, get even"...in the moment. When anyone who works in a group gets off a well aimed response to a lame and prejudiced remark, she/he wins the respect of her/his peers and temporarily silences the trash talker. Over time, such defeats will take their toll on the offender and either win him over or shut him up, maybe both.
"You cannot tailor make your situation in life, but you can tailor make your attitudes to fit those situations." Z. Zieglar
Edited 8/26/2009 9:01 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"just because you are a female you are not capable of having similar experiences". Yesterday I tore out the tile bed around our tub so we could change it out.When I started, I had some bad feelings that had been bothering me for a while, and after beating on the walls for a few hours, felt a lot better. Pretty sure it works the same way for guys.
Pretty sure it works the same way for guys.
I learned a great lesson early in life from a wise older man. He taught me about sublimating negative energy in simple physical work. When I showed up on the job PO'ed at someone, he put me to work with a pick and shovel, digging a deep hole for a sceptic tank. With great humor and compassion he advised me to lighten my mood by using the negative energy to focus on the simple task at hand.
I had one of the most remarkable days of my entire life, digging that big hole. Anger soon turned to elation and bliss, mostly because someone cared enough to share his inner knowledge with me.
If you put sceptics in underground tanks, where do you put the true believers?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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HA! Sceptic tank! That's such a funny typo that it deserves to remain as is. Thanks.
Great story!
Those who work in a cubicle may never understand the joy one gets from digging a hole or breaking up concrete :)
I bow in respect. As the British say: That was "spot on" in my world. Thank You.
That was "spot on" in my world. Thank You.
I'm happy to hear that it struck a chord with you. Thanks for providing the context for that worthwhile contemplation.
As you have already learned, you need patience and insight into human nature on several levels to endure in your chosen work.
Even those of us who think we are really open-minded and fair will be blind and bigoted in one area or another, e.g., I might think you're doing great until your performance threatens my job or competes with my reputation. Then I'm ready to nitpick your work or use whatever influence I have to undermine your reputation.
But human insight tells you that I might do the same to a male co-worker if he made me feel threatened in some way. I'm sure you've had to use various methods to reduce the perceived threat that you probably unintentionally create at times. Women have to do this even with other women, who can be every bit as competitive as men in their own arena.
It's also human to feel most competitive toward those whom we consider our peers, or equals: you will find the toughest scrutiny, not from your supervisors or helpers, but from those at the same level as yourself.
You can have a tough hide without a hard heart--and you seem to have achieved this balance. Otherwise, you would miss out on the fun and satisfaction that comes with doing good work and enjoying the good in people.
If it were easy to fit in, more females would be in the construction trades. It's not easy, but we're glad there are a few who can pull it off.
Best wishes
Interesting thread -- thanks for posting!
Some of the replies have had a certain, "Quit focusing on gender, just do your job!" quality to them.
My own position on that is that that is very easy to say if you're a White American Male -- as I am, actualy. I'm also of Anglo-Saxon extraction, I stand over 6' tall, and was born to college educated parents.
So all of the above factors put me somewhere in the top 90th, probably 95th percentile, as far as my head-start advantage in this world.
I'm well aware of that, and I consciously hold myself separate from the, "Born on third base, thinks he hit a triple," folks, of which George Bush is the ultimate Poster Boy. I'd like to see others have access to the chances that were just handed to me.
I had my first woman co-worker in 1977. OK, this was in Ann Arbor, but there was no question that even so, she came under excessive scrutiny, even here. When a few of our co-workers were simply not physically up to carrying solid-core fire doors up two flights of stairs, the guys in question were just assigned other jobs, while a campaign was mounted to run this woman off the job as incapable.
I crossed paths with another woman co-worker (for maybe two weeks?) in the 80s -- she has far surpassed me in her own way, and now runs an excellent, long-standing design-build company in town.
Back in 1995, I went out of my way to track down another woman for a year-plus project. Not for her skills, which were only pushing adequate, but for her powerful, humorous personality, her ability to set the tone onsite, and for the way that I felt she would round out the crew (no pun intended, I think).
I was well rewarded for this in the overall jobsite vibe, and although I haven't seen her in years, we still correspond, and I am deeply grateful for the largely-unnoticed role she played on that million-dollar project.
The fact is, it's a hard row to hoe to be a woman on a construction project. There will be many guys who will be threatened and angered by your presence, but if challenged, will immediately try to throw it back in your face as your problem.
There's nothing wrong with listening to these guys, and questioning yourself -- we all need to do that -- but in the long run, go with your gut, and trust yourself.
And post a thread here on BT as a reality check any time! I'd like to hear how you fare, and there's a bunch of us here who are all ears, and supportive.
AitchKay
I didnt know you were malewhats up with your screen namei thought your name was kay
That's HK to you!AitchKay
GesundtheitSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Hells Kitchen? lol
Nah. One other guy was closer -- he guessed Heckler & Koch. But most people don’t get it until their third guess or so --It actually stands for Laverne & Shirley, only spelled different.Aitchkay
You never heard of Danny Kaye?
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
nope should have i ?
Moses supposes his toeses are roses but Moses supposes erroneously, for nobody's toeses are roses or poses as Moses supposes his toeses to be. Danny Kaye
"You girls sell enough of this **** and you'll be drivin' a pink Cadillac too!"
Mary Kay
OOOOH!That's what I'M talkin' about!L&S
Just trying to get the thread back on topic.....;-)
What was the topic? Oh yeah...I almost cried the other day...Pulled up the old skip sheeting sub floor in my bathroom to put in blocking and good solid sub floor for tile backer.Put a 6 ft level across the floor joists, and they all lined up! Absolutely no high spots, and the entire floor was only 1/8" out of level in 8 ft.I was so happy! I thank God when something goes right.Do guys do this too?
"Do guys do this too?"NO!But it does cause some of us to wet our pants.
LOL
Do guys do this too?
The last bathroom gut and remodel I did, the floor was so far out of level that I would've had to add a step at the doorway. The new shower pan didn't puddle so I cut down the new vanity to make it level and perpendicular to the medicine cabinet, then called it all good for level.
I did smile broadly at that minor deception with the vanity and sink.
I strive for perfection on new work but I've learned not to agonize about such things on small remodeling jobs in old houses.
Edited 8/31/2009 8:13 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Let me make sure I got this...
you cut the bottom of the vanity at an angle so the top would be level?
Creative carpentry at it's finest. Whatever works!Have you ever been in one of those "Mystery" houses where it feels like you're going downhill but you're really going uphill? Worked in a house like that once and it made me dizzy walking through the living room.
Let me make sure I got this...you cut the bottom of the vanity at an angle so the top would be level?
As Curly used to say, "Coitainly!"
Have you ever been in one of those "Mystery" houses where it feels like you're going downhill but you're really going uphill?
Yes indeed. There used to one of them at Knott's Berry Farm, a unique amusement park in Southern California. I well remember how convincing the optical illusions were.
Been there too.Be interesting to learn how they built it that way.Pizz off an archy you don't like.
Row house in Carol Gardens Brooklyn the walls had settled such that when you went upstairs you were running by the time you got to the top.The guy just said "fix it".
Crying?!!
There's no crying in Carpentry!!!!
is whimpering and moaning OK???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Subjective to the moment only.
thanks...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Whimpering and cussing are encouraged
whew.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
but we gotta/hasta draw the line at groveling...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Only in bowling
man, that deserves some kind of something!
Saaalute!!! View Image
That's Danny Kaye, as I remember him from an early 60s LP. He was a great Borscht Belt comic, with a ton of movies under his belt. He worked tongue-twisters into all of his movies, as in The Court Jester:"The pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle. The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true!"Predictably, the above gets twisted and blurred in the process of confusing and advancing the plot.In Me and the Colonel, DK plays a WWII prisoner of the #### (a Jewish prisoner, IIRC).
"Less and less I like this Jacobowski," is the Bad Guy's repeated tag line, as DK proceeds to rescue him time and time again in exciting ways.Good old time-tested #### comedy, right? Well, whatever, we've since lived through Springtime for Hitler, haven't we? And we're still alive!AitchKay
Geez, the deleted word in my previous post was spelled N-A-Z-I! I was talking about a WWII movie, fer Chrissake!This BT stuff is getting to be hard work!I have half a mind to ####!And furthermore, I'd like to #### those ####s.Aitch-####ing Kay!
#####*Less and less I like this Jacobowski