Last summer I was the carpenter sub on a sizable reno job. Haven’t been on site in just over a year now. The GC has has had a few problems, with a couple major items. One being stamped concrete that got poured over top of a broken water main, which in turn ruined the surface. Another being continual headaches with the railing that was installed on the large deck that we’d built. The railings are now removed and are being re-powdercoated.
Anyway, I finally hear that the client has called up the GC and is livid with how long it’s taken to get these items fixed, and now has an itemized list of deficiencies, which now includes some things for me.
During demo, my crew had damaged part of the aluminum window frame, which I immediately reported to the GC. He was able to replace the damaged piece with little trouble. We were very conscious of taking care covering things up etc, and the only damage we had was the window frame as mentioned. The list now incudes the following:
- window frame is bent ( exterior)
- window frame chipped ( interior)
- Hardwood floor chipped/scratched in one place
- accused of slopped on silicone
I haven’t seen any of this yet. But I’m not sure what I’m supposed to say a year later from the last time I was on site. I never saw happen or afterwards any of the 1st three listed, and neither I or my crew ever touched a tube of silicone.
So what do I say to these accusations?
Replies
Don't say anything until you go take a look and confirm with absolute certainty that none of those deficiencies have nothing to do with you.
Once you've done that, document in a letter to the GC (I assume it's the GC who gave you this list) when you were there, what you did as his sub and how the items he listed are not related to nor the result of your work. You may even want to send the letter registered so there's proof that he received it if he wants to pursue legal action.
Yeah, dealing with the GC is not a problem. He and I have had much ongoing work. But he does want me go see the client, and while I am there I will have to most certainly say something to them while I am there. I don't wan to get into a no it wasn't me yes it was you match. View Image View Image
I will have to most certainly say something to them while I am there
Nope, keep yer mouth shut. Tell them you are there to see the damage and report back to the gc."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Nope, keep yer mouth shut. Tell them you are there to see the damage and report back to the gc.
I agree...emphatically. No matter what the prior relationship with the clients might have been, it's now all about business...serious business. Minimum courtesy is all that's required.
Don't give them the slightest hint that you're happy about being there. Don't offer any explanations or excuses or anything of the kind. Get in, have a careful look, leave without comment.
This is basically a courtesy call on behalf of the GC, to help him determine who's responsible for the problems...if they really exist.
After all that time with no complaints about your work and so many opportunities for others to cause damage, you shouldn't even be in the picture. If it was me, I'd probably refuse to even go and look at it, after an entire year had passed.
Unless your contract says otherwise, after you've been paid for work which can be visually inspected, you're done. Any damage which suddenly "appears" after you've been paid is someone else's responsibility.
Edited 10/1/2008 11:11 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Well...this is what I think has happened. They have been choked by some major screw ups that had nothing to do with me. also the high cost of the job. They have already got the GC to cut out his mark up one the $15,000 concrete job, and gotten him to eat a couple other smaller things.
I can understand some of their frustration, as the Concrete sub took the past year of delays and no shows fixing the concrete. ( from what I hear it is finally now accpetable) And now the railing screw up is finally being taken care of.
The GC had at 1st billed them full price for all the work, in spite of the screw ups and delays fixing, which I think is what got them choked. So I think they went on a hunt finding everything they could to make the list as long as possible.
But I have problem with giving me a list of things I supposedly am repsonsible for after over a year. If I bent the frame, or scratched the floor, you'd think I would have heard about it within the week.
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Edited 10/1/2008 11:58 am by alrightythen
"I think they went on a hunt finding everything they could to make the list as long as possible."
I'd bet you're right - That has happened to me several times when jobs go bad.
In a lawsuit I was indirectly involved in, the attorney for the HO noted such things as the subfloor plywood was only 23/32" instead of the specified 3/4", for example. They went on a witch hunt trying to drum up anything they could use against the GC.
If you go back to the jobsite you do NOT want to give the HOs anything they can use against you or the GC. The less you say to them the better.
Keep in mind that anything you put in writing and send to the GC can end up in court. And anything you say about the HOs might find it's way back to them through the GC or another sub.
Hope it turns out for the best...
Never miss a good opportunity to shut up.
"In a lawsuit I was indirectly involved in, the attorney for the HO noted such things as the sub floor plywood was only 23/32" instead of the specified 3/4", for example. "So were you taking that 1/32" of plywood to the scrap yard to make a little side money. ;-)
Well, from all reports they were over the moon with the work I'd done. And I'm guessing the list was a stab at the GC. When the GC met with them, and he told them those certain items would fall under me, and they were like "Oh".
The GC has put it on my shoulders to call them, to arrange to look at it. So I'm hoping if I call while they are at work and leave a message, perhaps they wont' bother having me come to look at it, if it was merely them trying to get more out of the GC. View Image View Image
Do you want to work for this GC again? I doubt I would. I would either tell him to pound sand, or call the owners and tell them he's just trying to rope you in on something that isn't your problem, as long as you know that's true.
yeah...you're right. I just talked to the H.O. and she was fine with me on the phone, said she was very happy with our work. It was just a list of the little things that they pointed out to the GC. And she doesn't know who is reponsible for it.
The thing is I've worked with this GC for like 10 years and at least 50% of my work has come from him. I've never had him throw anything like this at me before, so I don't know what to tell him.
What do you guys do normally as a GC with these little lists? do you hunt down every guy who could have possibly been reposible for the item, or do you just take care of it? View Image View Image
What do I do? Take care of it.Ideally, a good GC will be on top of things and spot these little issues before they snowball or mothball. Either result can be a big pain.I also see your (the GC's) situation as a reason to stay on top of things and close out jobs quickly. Sometimes there's not much you can do, but I've found that when we let things slide, small issues have a tendency to become big issues. I don't know exactly what problem's the job in question have been fraught with, but I would be that if the GC had cracked the whip 11 months ago everything would be better.BTW- how much money in materials and how many man hours do you think the list of items would take you to complete. If this GC is good to work for, maybe it's in your best interest to just take care of it, or propose that you will provide the labor if he buys the materials. Sometimes you gotta bend.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
From talking with her on the phone, some touch up paint will take care of some of it. Not sure about the hardwood floor. It's not a prefinshed floor so it's not like taking up and replace one board does the trick. View Image View Image
What do you guys do normally as a GC with these little lists?
It's a G.C.'s Punch List. He's supposed to hire someone with all around knowledge and skills to take care of all those little details.
Sounds like he's trying to save a few bucks by implying that you should do it to help him out, take care of it. It's not an unusual tactic. If you're an easy going guy, you're the most likely candidate.
My experience with doing "favors" for G.C.s is all bad. Give an inch, they take it as complete surrender. I'd inspect all the items, determine if I can handle them OK, then call and ask him if he'd like a set price for doing them or be billed by the hour, full rate, portal to portal.
I would try to get away from one guy giving you 50% of your work. If things go south, like they might in this case, suddenly you have 6 months of the year with no work and you need to fill it.
Given the current situation I would go over there are eat the few things he is throwing at you. Charge him for it on the next job if you can.
I wonder if he realizes the wisdom in your post. I always thought that having one GC keep me busy would be nice. Boy did I every learn different when in 1991 I was working a project, that ended up stopping in the middle and I didn't have time in the season to find more work for my help!
I just finished a year's work for one homeowner. Steady work is good but I have hardly added to my client list during that time. In some ways it would be better to have done 10 jobs during the same period.
Before my auto accident, was working for a framing contractor, he was of the opinion that it is always better to build for 10 GC's than only 1!!!!!!!!
i'm working on it. steadily getting more of my own work. The only reason he's been 50% is beause his jobs have been much larger than all my other 1-4 week jobs. But I've also turned down jobs while being on his 3 month jobs. But usualy small stuff anyways. View Image View Image
I think the GC should just ask you to go do them all and then pay you for whatever it all is worth. He should have had money in the original work to cover warranty items. At least thats how I do it.
I respectfully disagree with the other commenters. As a GBC who has made the same mistake and spent thousands on legal fees I cannot agree.
The cost to initialize a lawsuit is minimal to the client. Once the client hires a lawyer, everyone who worked on the job will be brought into the lawsuit. It does not matter if your work is defective. Deficencys of "construction defects" and "standard of care" will typically be filed. The "construction expert" will make crazy and wild accusations regarding your work that you must defend. You will spend countless hours and money defending your work from the clients "expert" in construction.
My advise would be to meet with the GC and homeowner. Document every correspondence and phone call. Put your pride, ego and hard feelings aside. Act professional. DO NOT TAKE THE ACCUSATIONS PERSONALLY. VIDEO TAPE AND TAKE STILL PICTURES OF EVERYTHING. Document the meeting with notes. Ask the client what they need to be happy. Do not respond to their requests at the meeting. After cooling down for a few days from the meeting, consider if their requests are reasonable. If they are reasonable, just take care of them and document via certified mail that you took care of them. If they are not reasonable, then reply by certified mail with your reasons. Your journal, video and pictures of how you responded will determine your fate.
Ignoring the clients concerns is the worst possible approach you can take. Don't do it.
Just my two cents but if you do visit the job site, take YOUR attorney with you!
Excellent.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I think you mis-understood my response. You and I agree that the OP should go look at the "damages" and be polite while there, and don't make any committments to the HO. The only place we don't agree is that you advise him to ask the HO what it would take to make them happy, and i can't say you're wrong. Neither I nor Hudson Valley advocated ignoring the complaint."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Sensible approach, no doubt. I've never been taken to civil court so I defer to your painful and expensive experience.
My logic about workmanship which is all visible and also vulnerable is that payment by the GC confirms that the work was completed successfully and was up to the usual standards.
If damage is "discovered" later, it must be assumed that it was caused by others. Therefore the burden of proof falls on the person complaining.
"Therefore the burden of proof falls on the person complaining. "Logically, that makes sense. Unfortunately, the law isn't logical. If you don't defend, you will lose.
Who hired you? The GC or the Owner?
I think the GC is trying to push off his liability on you. He should set up the meeting with the client, bring you in to view the work, and you should report to him (only him) about what your take on things is.
To me, the GC asking you to go there and meet with the client is an easy way out for him. Even if you are 100% liable for the mistakes and damage, the GC hired you and the Owner's hired the GC, so he should deal with it.
I would tell the GC that you will go with him to look at the items but you will not speak with the Owner about specifics. You don't have to be a jerk, but a well delivered "I don't want to say anything that will be unfair to either the Owner or the GC" *should* suffice.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
He already had a meeting with the clients, and told them he would get back to the site, anyone who reposible for whatever area. So it's been"deem" I'm responsible for those items listed. He personally thinks the stuff is a joke.
The windows were already old, and the floor could have been scratched by their kids for all we know.
I was hired by the GC
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Edited 10/1/2008 1:09 pm by alrightythen
Alternative viewpoint here.
To me it sounds like you are being dragged in by the GC, who already took a bath on the job and is desperate to spread his losses. Why doesn't he go to the job himself and determine whether or not he thinks you are at fault? What are you supposed to do, go look at the problem and then mysteriously remember "Oh yeah, I guess we did scratch that"?
I tend to disagree with others who say that once you are paid it is confirmation that your work is complete and free of flaws. I have had situations on my jobs where I have either discovered damage or found incomplete work after the sub has been paid. In those cases they need to come back and deal with it. I don't care if it's a week later or a year later. But.... if it's damage, I would need VERY clear proof.... indisputable visual evidence.... that it was your fault. If there was any uncertainty I would have to eat it. I have a situation right now where someone spilled something on a bathtub and it is turning out to be damn hard to get off. Was it the tilesetter spilling stone sealer? Was it the plumber spilling flux or something else? Was it the painter spilling finish or solvent? Did it come from the factory like that? If I really want to know I will need to hire a testing lab.
Why doesn't he go to the job himself and determine whether or not he thinks you are at fault? What are you supposed to do, go look at the problem and then mysteriously remember "Oh yeah, I guess we did scratch that"?
I don't know...since my crew was doing the work, I suppose I would know better than him. He already thinks their fishing on a lot of this stuff. One thing on the list was that nail holes were left that the painter ( which the Home Owner contracted seperately afterwards) had to fill in at an extra cost to them. The GC explained that that's the painters job, and had he contracted the painting out it still would have cost them ( plus mark up). View Image View Image
I have had situations on my jobs where I have either discovered damage or found incomplete work after the sub has been paid. In those cases they need to come back and deal with it. I don't care if it's a week later or a year later.
That's what you require of them, in order to stay off of your s-h-i-t list.
What my standard contracts say is; upon satisfactory completion of all work, I'm to receive my final payment. So once I'm paid for anything which isn't warranted, my responsibility is completed.
Anything that comes up after that goes on the G.C.'s punch list.
I like your advice. What is the GC's markup for, anyway? There is no excuse, IMO, for the GC to come back to his sub a year later for items like this. Even if the sub is responsible (unless this were a hidden item in a wall, for example), the GC should have taken care of the matter up front.
alrighty..... this can / will impact your G/L... you should discuss
this with your agentMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think there's many good points here but alot of what's been mentioned . . . for instance who's responsiblilty it becomes after the sub has been paid, and when that trail of responsibility ends, although may be legally correct, it's still gonna cost lots to get to that legal position.
In other words, once lawyers get involved it can get expensive fast. Even if you or the GC did nothing wrong, it still may cost way more for a judge to decide that than if you spent a few hours fixing the "discrepancy''.
It is so hard to swallow when you did nothing wrong but may be the cheaper way to get out of it. On the other hand, if you go back and put in lots of time and money on this to "fix the problem" and the home owners have such a bad taste in their mouths over the whole project that nothing will make them happy, and you're just gonna get sued anyway, then documentation in the form of pix, video, paperwork, etc. will be your best friend.
I'd go to the site with or without the GC and as has been mentioned before, document everything you can giving away as little as possible to the HO, then sit down with the GC and formulate your plan after you have a better sense of how pissed they are and with whom. After that you can either 1) meet with the GC and the HO to work out a solution. 2) Meet with your lawyer and start getting your defense in order. 3) Some other solution I haven't thought of.
One thing is for certain, once you're named in a suit, the lawyers start playing the blame game and you have to look out for your own neck. That may sour the relationship with your GC so you'll have to decide if that's worth it.
I would only go with the GC and not talk to the HO.
What would worry me is if im the only guy to go back they might stick me with every problem on the whole job because i was the only one to go back.
It might seem your responsibility is to the GC as thats who you subbed to so i would only want to make him happy.
A few times i almost got screwed cause i had the only lic they could go back on
if it was me... and i was you.... knowing what you know... I'd do nothing... period... nada... a yr later i wouldn't even discuss it it to deny it...
it will all either go away on it's own...
or something else will happen....
... nothing you do now will change the above...
even if their lawyer contacts you... toss the letter in the trash... they are fish'n... DON'T BITE
don't respond... don't talk to anyone about it period...
i'd even delete this post...
p
If I was a builders sub and he fed me work, I would certainly go with him to look at the problems. Bring a couple of cameras and take 50 pictures or more like youre CSI, do closeups with rulers next to the discrepencies. The GC needs to convey to these people that hes not backing down and this discrepency list is final and have paperwork ready to have them sign. Contractors write contracts (and other paperwork).