I’m going to start laying tile down soon and was wondering what would be best to use to adhere it down. I’m puting it onwalls, floor, shower stall, ect.
I purchased a bucket of premixed (TEC brand) ceramic floor and wall tile adhesive, but have also read that people use thinset mortar.(have that also). Anybody know which is best for where, why and when? All thoughts and recommendations would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jon
Replies
thinset......everywhere you describe....because cement is better than glue.
only place I use mastic is on a backsplash.......purely decorative...no wear or stress to the tile what so ever. Everywhere else.....thinset.
go to mapie.com and read up.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Use thinset. Use liquid latex mortor additive instead of water. Everywhere.
If you're doing ceilings in a shower I can tell you how because theres an entirely different process there.
DONT buy the premixed thinset. Mix it yourself and be sure to buy the thinset that doesnt already have additive in it. Buy the cheaper thinset then add the admix.
If youre doing marble be sure to use white thinset if you use white marble.
If youre using dark granite be sure to use the thinset that comes in boxes "for" granite. Especially large tiles. Keeps it from cupping,
Have fun..tiling "is" fun
Namaste
andy
"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is."
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Took your advice with the thinset and additive. Did the area around the tub and floor of the shower stall. The tub area went easy enough, but the floor was quite a challenge, as it is a 5 sided [trapezoid?] with the drain not quite in the center (actually it doesn't really have a center per say given the shape) as I am using 12" squares and it is impossible from a geometric perspective to have all the edges at the same height relative to the ones adjacent since it all has to pitch to the drain. You said "tiling "is" fun." You were kidding right?
Jon
Jon
I'm not sure how big the floor is your tiling and if its a shower floor but my guess is it is. In which case I'd never use 12" tiles the way you seem to be using them.
I did one shower three houses ago of mine that was about 6x6' w/ a bench seat alcove in there. I had Taiwan Green marble for all walls floor and ceilings and a glass bock wall floor to ceiling on the outside wall.
For the floor I laid down my rubber base then did the mud job (not using tile yet).
I laid straight 1x2's ( on their edges) in each corner pitched down towards the drain(doesnt matter if its in the middle..mine wasnt either). I pitched the 1x's 1/4" per foot using mud as my shims. I then used the 1x's to float the mud between with my straight edge
Remove the 1x's and fill the gaps with mud.
I started at the high and widest end laying in full tiles (12" tile) but as I came into the narrow end of thefunnel of the pitch I cut each tile down that 1x line. At the bottom by the drain my tiles became small naturally...Can you picture that or arent I painting a good picture (sorry).
Every tile was even to one another. Theres no reason they shouldnt be.
If you have a hard time doing what I described than you should be using either mosaic tile or cutting your tile into maybe narrow sort of rectangles mitered at each 1x line.
And ya..I love doing tile....do as much tile as I have and you wont be scratchin yer head the way I remember I use to.....speaking of which...back to work for me...Doing my bathroom right now..still framing and plumbing though....
Just tested my water lines right up top the third floor from the basement and not one leak,.,,,yeeeee ha!!!!
Have fun I said!
BE well
Namaste
andy"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Too late now to change anything easily, but I figured a picture of what I'm doing is better than text. I have done lots of remodeling and construction, just never tile, so if you you see anything that makes you cringe (ie. that I've done wrong, feel free to let me know). I won't be doing any more laying down of tile for the next day or two as the weather here has changed; went fro 2F last week to 78F yesterday. I have to frame out and install a box bay window that goes by the tub. Incidentally, I was able to get the tile heights to no farther than ~.020" of one another. all slope to the drain except the center one of course. That's set dead level.
Jon
Boy that's a little bitty shower to have tiles that large. Looks like a good install job, except for the two corners where the joints don't line up.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I'm only an electrician but it looks good to me.
The grout lines don't line up but seeing as that it is on both ends it is symmetrical. When the picture was downloading from top down I saw the first one and said to myself oh no another screwed up job. But when the one on the bottom appeared it looked right. You avoided using a tiny pieces and kept it balanced. Who says you have to follow the conventional design rules. I like it. You took a difficult job and did yourself proud.
BTW I have seen far worse jobs done by "professionals". Good to go as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't worry about the nit pickers.
Andy, tell me about shower ceilings. I just did my first one and need to see how badly I screwed it up. No wait...I didn't use screws...maybe that was the problem.
I did discover two tricks while grouting the ceiling: don't work with you mouth open (and for sure don't chew gum), and if you do the ceiling first, when you're done the floor is half-grouted.
Also, you mention to use an additive with the thinset. I used Mapei Ultraflex II and the instructions specifically said not to use an additive, only water. Would you advocate using an additive anyway? Why?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Edited 3/20/2003 12:32:00 AM ET by ELCID72
El
When using lage tiles such as 12x12 marble or whatever the best job is with thinset but theyre too heavy so you need to start on the ceiling. Screw in a 2x4 about 4" down from the CBU on opposing sides. Cut more 2x4's the lenth from one wall to the other. Lay your 12" tiles into the thinsetted ceiling and slide your cut 2x4's in between the tiles and the cleats you screwd t the wall with whatever shims necessay to fit in snug. Do each row like that. Take down the 2x4's in the morning and you have a shower ceiling as strong as Saddams bunker.
Also some thinsets already have additive in it so ..right..dont add more or it'll harden up almost instantly...I've already made that mistake.
Personally I think the thinset without the premixed additive is better.
I've tried getting tiles up the next day to do a repair on (stinkin plumbers) both types and the thinset that I "added" the admix to was way more stuck down
BE stuck
Namaste
andy"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Hey all,
I didn't want to hijack your post WSJ (by the way, yeah the corners do look a little odd, but I like the job, I even don't mind the large field tiles in the small shower, cool shape too! Overall, a shower I'd like to shower in.) BUT, since there are some obviously experienced people here I thought you might not mind the intrusion. I'm looking for some other ways to get a good slope in the mud towards the drain (Andy, I like the 1X idea, never heard that before), or any hints about putting in the mud pan overall. I'd love to hear them - actually, my wife would love for me to hear them so I don't screw up her shower too badly. Thanks tons everyone!
p.s. - Andy, any luck getting your restocking fees refunded or at least reduced? That was you wasn't it?
Erich
This is how I do ceilings:
First is the layout. I generally pick the biggest format of tile that I can stand, like a 6x6 or an 8x8. Layout the grid on the diagonal, so the grout lines don't have to match up.
Second is the thinset. I use just dumb Versabond Thinset at $15 a bag. I mix it thick and lay in on with a half inch trowel. The stuff is thick like peanut butter. I even back butter those babies. Follow the CBU manufacturer's instructions, so Hardibacker has to be sponged off, OK?
Third, just set the full tiles along the diagonal, and for the average size shower that is only about a dozen tiles. I find I don't need cribbing, if the thinset is nice and thick. It will stick fine.
Once you have some/all of the full tiles set and cured, you can use masking tape to hold the rest.
If they stay up for more than an hour, you're fine.
By the way, check the label on your Mapei. It says NOT to use the produce near water. I think your nuts to use it in a shower. It has too many additive and acrylics, that will re-emulsify when exposed to water and turn into mush. Don't use it.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927
Thank's for the compliment. The way I did my slope (did this before I read Andy's !X method) was to rip up some CBU strips with a diamond blade and thinset them into place at the perimeter corners, then strike off the bed to the top.
Also to all, the reason I used such large tiles is that they match the floor tiles I'm using (except for the color), and were not available in a smaller size. The bath is 15' by ~8' so smaller one's on the floor I thought might look funny.
Edited 3/20/2003 4:16:57 PM ET by WorkshopJon
I have a question on a closely related topic, and need a little advice...
I am in the process of scraping and re-installing a section of tiles that have fallen off of the back wall of a shower. However, I am not sure of the right way to attach the ceramic towel-bar-end. It fits on the wall in half of one tile space.
It seems like I should just install it in thinset with the rest of the tiles, and grout around it like the rest of the tiles. However, it appears that it was originally installed with grout instead of mortar. (Of course, I have little faith in the technique of the original installer, since the tiles are now falling off.)
So which way is right, grout or mortar?
-KennyO
You should probably investigate why the tiles are falling off before trying to re-attach the towel bar. Start by tapping on the tiles with something like the handle of a screwdriver, listening to the sound. Solidly attached tiles will sound, well, solid. Loose tiles will have a hollow sound. Remember back in Little League when you tapped a bat handle on the home plate to see if it was cracked after one of your power smashes to center field (or ran over it on your Schwinn bike)? Just like the different sound of a cracked bat, loose tiles will sound odd. If the loose area is small and localized, patching might be ok. If you find loose tiles in several places, maybe it's time to re-do the whole field.
To answer your question...After the tiles had been in place avernight, I made sure the leave-out area was clean, and attached a soap holder with a good application of silicone caulk and held it in place with masking tape, then caulked it to the tiles.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Thanks. After allowing time for the caulk to cure, do you just grout around its perimeter as you do the rest of the tiles?
As for identifying the loose tile, unfortunately I have gotten pretty good at that. This is my second major repair on this shower in eight years. This time I have removed and scraped nearly 80 tiles. The original green backer board joints were not even taped, and they apparently textured and painted part of the wall, before changing their minds and slapping the tiles right on top of that. So in addition to painstakingly cleaning the tiles, I have also scraped, taped, and patched the drywall. The end is nearly in sight, so I have to admit that I am disappointed that the towel bar is going to add another day or two to the process. Oh well. Thanks again.
Oops. You're putting tile directly on greenboard in a shower? That's why you're having to replace the tiles, and you'll get the chance to do it again in a couple of years. On the soap dish, I grouted all the tiles first, keeping the recess clean. The next day I siliconed the dish in place, and caulked around it with more silicone. I did not use any grout on the soap dish.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Sounds like it was set the old fashioned way, bash hole in wall mix plaster of paris with hot water fill hole, butter back of fixture and set quickly, hold for 5 min. in ten min. you can't pull it out. If it was me I wouldn't even bother replacing tiles rip the whole thing out 1/2" cement board & set new tile, grout tile & caulk tub seam, corners and all fixtures
Plaster of paris, eh? Thanks for the insight.
Guess I am just an optimist, and started out hoping this job would remain small. It grew. Now that I am finally ready to grout, looking back it would have been much easier to rip it all out. Hey, it is a good day if you have learned something, right?
As you have now discovered these large tiles present some difficult problems when trying to develop a contoured floor. One suggestion I have for dealing with your type of situation is to cut the larger tiles into smaller ones. Tiles that are 12"x12" can be cut into 6"x6" tiles fairly easily. I like to slightly round the top corners of the cut sides before I lay the tiles. You could also cut them smaller and at least that way they will be matching tiles. The fact that they are proportioned more appropriately for the space where they are installed should be more attractive than having a perfect match to the other tiles in the area (besides offering a better opportunity to develop the contours).
Thanks for the advice Clay. As this is the first time that I have ever laid down tile, it is proving to be a learning experience. I didn't know that it is common practice to cut tiles into smaller pieces the way you suggest as I though the different edge would look odd. ie. uncut they have a slight bevel, and to add that after cutting would remove some color. Then again people seem to think the 12X12's look large. After all the feedback (please keep it coming) I would certainly do things differently in the future. Unfortunately, a lot of the tricks of the trade are not available in print, and I can't always stop work and wait for a response to a post. I still have to lay down the main floor and do the shower stall walls [and seat] (floor will be a diagonal pattern). Anybody have any advice they think I should know on that?
Jon
It is probably not a common practice, yet I have, on numerous occaisions, cut the tiles to smaller sizes for various reasons. I always soften the cut edges with a diamond grinder and sometimes finishing with a belt sander. The results are pretty pleasing. it is difficult to see that they were cut down when the grouting is completed. I prefer to use solid colored porcelain tiles for this type installation (because the color goes clear through the tiles) but I have used glazed tiles also with very nice results.
Jon,
Your tiled shower floor is not standard practice. It seems to me you may have puddles of water in and around your drain. The tile that is cut out for the drain can only be pitched in one direction. Normally you would cut out quarter circles from the corners of four tiles and they would converge to the center of the drain. Setting 12" tiles in a small floor is possible and do it quiet often. You have to break the floor into four quadrants when floating the bed."One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions"