My house is 300+ years old…ground floor is 1740 sf; floor joists run every which way & are made of logs with bark on, hand hewn 12×14’s, 2×8’s & 2×10’s with & without hangers, etc. – you get the picture…
My question is, how do I go about sealing all the tiny-to-large holes through the floor to minimize moisture inflitration & drafts? I have already started with the attic; insulated as much as possible, caulked all the joints, sealed the hatch, put plastic on the windows, etc. The attic under a gambrel roof is finished.
The finish floor on the ground floor is mostly t&g oak strip over…the subfloor is variously plywood, once-beautiful wide pine boards, old batten doors, chopped-up pieces of feather-edge paneling…
About 1/4 of the total square footage will be ripped up & replaced, but what about the rest? I need the help of all you BTers, & will gratefully consider all advice.
Replies
Kate:
Please remember: Demolition is forever. You've got to strike the right balance between stewardship and modern living. Please show restraint when removing and/ or altering any original materials.
Others hopefully will be here also as I'm no expert
but you may want to consider insulating the perimeter
of your foundation, then putting plastic on the ground
sealed to your foundation to prevent moisture from entering
your crawl space.
Also what part of the country are you in?
check out this web site as it may also help
http://www.buildingscience.com/housesthatwork/
I don't know how much space you have to work under this subfloor. Ten inches? Five feet? If you can access and work under it, stapling up tarpaper is a quick easy, the4n you could follow up with aStroFoil
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
If you're trying to separate the main floor from the basement/cellar then polyurethane on the underside of the floor will do the trick. Complete air sealing and R5 to 7 per inch.If you do that you will want to either remove any building systems you have from the basement into the building envelope or at least insulate them very seriously. The basement will get cold when you stop trying to heat it.As far as insulating the basement goes... depending on your climate there could be some downsides to it. My house, not as old as yours, has a limestone rubble foundation. Currently, it is not recommended to insulate such a foundation on the inside since it could expose the foundation wall to too much freeze thaw damage. I am getting ideas that researchers are changing their minds... however. Better safe than sorry.If my house wasn't a 100 years old... there would go a really fine hobby.
You may already know this (I apologize if I'm being redundant) but if your house is 300+ years old there may be historical standards to meet. Local code officials get pretty touchy about making changes to buildings with historical value. If you haven't done so already, talk to your local building department and find out if your house falls into this category.
(edit: if it's NOT covered by any historical protection, don't bring more attention to it than you have to. For your own sanity, you don't want some official getting interested in it and making a case that it be protected. That'll make any changes you want to make a nightmare of regulations. I say this on the assumption that you'll take tender, loving care of it, minus the additional headaches . . . ) :)
Edited 9/14/2005 10:27 am ET by draftguy
Thank you all. A little more info...House was moved in 1890's, set up on high Victorian foundation (ugly, but useful), gutted, & divided into 4 apartments, so there is little but the timber frame to protect.
After 125 years of apartment life, it was abandoned for about 7 years, until we got it through a homesteading program New London, CT had. The city building dept. cannot be more helpful, contrary to the experiences many of you have had. They are advising and cheering me on as I (slowly) bring it back from the brink of destruction.
I see my mission with this house, which I plan to be my last, as retaining as much of its early character as possible, while making it comfortable for 21'st century life.
The basement has a concrete floor, cemented rubblestone walls to grade, and brick for the last 3 feet or so., not insulated, & used for my workshop & storage. I have just about enough headroom, but there are miles of pipes, wires, & steam pipes, so it's not practical to spray the whole underside with foam. Also, I want it to be warm enough to work in.
I've owned it for 6 years, & have been steadily tightening it up. Replaced the boilers (I have 1 rental apartment, 1/4 the total square footage, with it's own utilities.) Of course, that's where I was working first, for the income potential, so it's nice & cozy. I'm now concerned with the rest, & wondered what the consensus might be.
Edited 9/14/2005 7:54 pm ET by kate
Hi Kate;
Old houses like yours have lasted this long because they are able to breath! Over insulating is a mortal sin. I agree with the guys that say, check other older homes in the area, because you have a gem, and I love to see you maintain it properly. Climatic conditions will defiantly have a dramatic influence on moisture problems. Insulating from the interior may have detrimental consequences.
Hope this is some help
I'm not so concerned with insulating as with blocking the drafts, & minimizing the chimney effect of cool, moist air from the cellar. I think it's John Nash, in that excellent old house book, who makes the point that tightening, rather than retro-fitting insulation, is practical. I am just looking for ideas.
I have insulated the attic, and a few places where walls had to be opened up anyway, like behind the shower...
Hi KAte,
My wife's name is Katrina but I call her Kate and I too live in an old house. Circa:1680 so we have something in common..lol. We're on the north shore of Long Island that used to be an old whaling town.
I've had this house about three years. Was vacant for two because in spite of people wanting to buy it, they couldn't deal with it. It was seriously neglected and abused to the point some walls were ready to fall in.
Then yours truly came along : ) and bought it despite Kates skeptisism. that was then, this is now. Now she's loving it!!!
Far as insulating goes one good thing the previous owner did was to blow in cellulose. From some of the walls I had to open I see it was blown in really well and I can tell that its been doing a good job.
Some areas I have crawl space that was uncrawlable/inaccesable so I lifted a couple of floor planks and squeezed in and stapled up some foam boards between the log beams using cans of Touch N Foam to glue them in and fill the voids.
The basement naturally has rubble rock as the foundation and really doesn't get terribly cold down there so I haven't insulated the floors above.
The attic is insulated poorly funny enough because that's most accesable.I'll probably get more cellulose and pour it in when I get the time which I doubt will be this winter. Right now its cellulose but poorly done.
Unfortunately I've decided to get triple track storm windows because the air coming through those old windows is unreal and I don't have the time or money right now to make or buy wooden storms which "can" still be done down the line.
I see other historic houses around here with triple track and it doesnt look horrible if they're white and the window trim is white. Very little metal to see. I hate it but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I have lotsssssss of 12 over 12's and it gets really cold.
Far as totally keeping it historic...well, I've had many people jump down my throat for some of the additions I've added on but until you get "real" and have been through this it may be easier to talk then to act. I try and keep things blended in the best I can,,,,Same siding, Same wooden shingle roofs, same type wooden windows but thermopane (Marvin), Wide plank eastern white pine flooring w/hadcut Rosehead face nails....etc etc
With in the time I've lived here I can see all that was done. the good the bad and the ugly and the thing people need to realize is that within the 325 years that this house has been here every single person from every single era has done what's part of that era to the house. THATS one of the things that makes this house interesting to me and what makes really old houses interesting in general. Some old houses are museums and some are homes.
We do try to the best of our ability to keep all the new things we do with our pioneer friends in mind...Things we think they'd approve of for this house. At least that's how "we" look at it.
When ever I have to pull an old nail or whatever it is to the old house I do it with deep thought and appreciation for all those old carps just as I hope the carps in the future do for me.
BE well and have fun
Namaste'
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Damn - when I saw this thread, I scrolled down to tell the poster you were the man to talk to since you had a really old house, too. You beat me too it, Old House Boy.Birth, school, work, death.....................
<<<<Old House Boy.>>>Well at least I know who you are under that new name Mr.Cu...lol.
Yeh, I figured someone might bring my name up. Glad it was gonna be you. A man that knows his craft for sure!!!
Talked to Duane today...says hsi truck is working. thank god for small miracles....lol...you bend em' and he burns his knobby knees on em' LOL.
Keep up the awesome work dudeman.
By the way, I'm in the market for some old hand made pots and pans...know anyone making any? I know someone making copper lids...I mean hats
Be cu
andyThe secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
Andy
You said it perfectly! Easy for 'purists' to lose sight of the fact that an old house is a living entity I particularly like what you said about the good, bad, & ugly. I can see good work done by good owners (custom triple-tracks) & schlock stuff done by the last guy, the one who abandoned the house (may have had a relationship with his cocaine problem...)
Don't knock the storm windows - I'm grateful to have them, as the primary windows are glazes mostly with spiderwebs & dirt...My sash is very dark green- I painted the storms to match, & they pretty well blend in.
I got the house from the city, & it took a couple of years, so while I waited, I worked at the Joshus Hempstead House, a museum here in NL. Joshua left a diary of his life between 1711 & 1756, in which he mentions sailing to Long Island, where he had land & relatives, & he was not the only one - there are links between the shores.
I don't have photos to post yet, but do you? Just an exterior shot?
Thanks for your support!
Kate
> Some old houses are museums and some are homes.
That sums it up perfectly.
-- J.S.
That is why I suggested just stapling up tarpaper under the subfloor. It is cheap, easy, and willl take the velocity out of drafting
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin-
OK to use Tyvek, instead, for it's light-reflecting qualities in my workshop? I'm lucky that when the house was moved in the 1890's, they put it up on a victorian basement, with a concrete floor - nicest basement I've ever had! (I've lived in a succession of pretty old houses...)
Thanks for your advice!
Kate
one reason I was thinking of tarpaper is the fact that most of those really old homes have splits in the flooring that lets the light shine through. So if yours does too, the galre of the white when you are upstairs will be distracting. Other than that, it would last longer possibly and do a better job
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The house has been reworked extensively, for good and ill, and almost all the rooms have oak strip t&g flooring, from the 1890's move and gutting, so there are no visible gaps. The house I grew up in, in central Mass., had the original floors, so I know what you mean, & of course, tarpaper would be the thing there...
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my posts!
Kate
Edited 9/20/2005 7:48 pm ET by kate
kate,
actually if you have all those pipes/wiring etc, foam is exactly what you should use! Only foam will go up around over and under that sort of stuff. IF you are worried about the condition of the pipes/ wiring etc, then you should change your priorities do the plumbing first and then redo the wiring and once all of them are in excellant condition spray foam and protect stuff.. (while sealing it up)
Plumbing is done. Wiring is in the works. Winter is coming...I was looking for something I can do myself, as budget is tight & my time is worthless..I mean priceless, of course, but as I am 'retired'...
I've about decided to start by going around the first floor at night, with the cellar lights on, & spraying foam in every spot where I can see light. I'm having the wiring done in sections, so as it gets done, I can put up the tyvek. I've already put it over the workbench, in self-defense.
Of course, I was looking for the magic bullet, & I thank you all.
Edited 9/20/2005 7:50 pm ET by kate
My 2cents, realizing you may already agree with all of this, and I am just spouting off, as always:
If you live in a home over 300 years old, I can only assume that there is something about it that appeals to you more than would a 50's ranch or 70's split level: My point is to keep renovations, including weatherizing, to a minimum to achieve a comfortable historic home, not a new home.
There is nothing more depressing for a preservationist than to go into an old home which looks like it's been gutted and redone in the style of the day.
That seems to be the trend of most DIY programs today, including TOH, which seems to just go in and renovate whatever property they get so that it is indistinguishable from the McMansions around it.
Jojn the local historical society, go to tours of old houses like yours to see how they were built and how they were restored - not renovated.
Agree totally...have done & will continue to do. Meanwhile, my husband stepped through the floor...