I’m looking for a quality 3 or 4 panel craftsman style door. We are considering Cherry or maybe poplar stained to look like cherry. The Mastercraft at Menards appear awfully “Cheap”. Anybody have suggestions? I thought I had a supplier but they have went out of business since i was quoted.
Thanks for any input.
Replies
A real door shop can get you whatever you desire - more reasonalby than you may think.
Its worth a visit to a real lumber yard that deals regularly in special orders.
My yard can special order many kinds of doors. Morgan is one of the popular wood door manufacturers.
Stauff,
The doors at Home Depot are better than the doors at Menards. Use the Menards prices to drive the price of Home Depot to meet the Menards prices. (I did) Take an advertisement from Menards in and they have to match the prices.. Plus the only veneer they use is in the raised panels. The rails and styles are solid wood
All manufactured doors are built to a cost standard rather than a quality standard. Cabinet shop doors are better (at least they are solid wood rather than a veneer) but you pay for those cost differances..
One final point. Buy unfinished doors. Most Cherry does not look like cherry, it's "painted (or "stained") to look cherry. That's what makes the doors look cheap.
Real cherry developes a wonderful patina that cannot be duplicated with any paint or stain.
The "trick" is sunlight, time, and shellac. Expose your doors to as many hours of sunlight as you can do both sides. Each day will darken the wood naturally. (bring them inside at night or when rain threatens to keep dew and moisture off them)
Now shellac. The finest antiques use shellac because it's authentic and really brings out the beauty of wood. Plus it gives a shine that doesn't look plasticy (which is why doors appear to look cheap) It has a depth and richness unlike any other finish.
Plus shellac was designed for people who can't paint! I mean I am the master of making a mess. runs drips and I usually get more on me (and spill an equal amount) than on what I'm painting..
Not so with shellac.
It's idiot proof!
First a little more good news about shellac.. It's natural, not some chemical experiament.. been around for thousands of years.. It's renewable and biodegradeable
It's safe! You've been eating shellac with most candy and nearly every pill you take!
(so did your parents and grandparents and etc.. )
If you make a mistake you can wipe it right back up even when dry. It washes out of clothes.
Surprisingly it's probably the toughest most scratch resistant finish out there. Yet if it should be damaged somehow it's so easy to fix you'll be tempted to fix shellac just to show off.
Unlike some myths you can get it wet without damageing it.. simply wipe it off in a reasonable period of time. Yes, if you pour a glass of single malt scotch on it and leave it there it will need to be repaired (but remember it repairs so easy without sanding or making a mess it doesn't matter) plus who wastes good booze like that anyway?
It does have a weakness (but hey so does superman) it's Kriptonite is ammonia so don't clean it with ammonia! How hard is that?
Finally shellac, finishes dries insanely fast and each coat melts the previous coat so flawless application doesn't matter.
So buy unfinished doors from Home depot finish them yourself and wind up with the finest doors imaginable!
ps. shellac is extremely affordable cheaper than most similar finishes..
Edited 7/23/2008 9:39 am ET by frenchy
If you're doing a whole houseful of doors, look around online. Some companies have a certain amount (like 20) that can get free or reduced shipping.
Some come as slabs with knocked down jambs, some just slabs that need site built jambs. We've just hung them, but the builders said they were inexpensive.
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Cherry or especially Poplar are not good selections for exterior doors. Either is fine for interior doors. I have found that folks that buy Poplar and "finish to look like Cherry" spend more time and money trying to get the Poplar to look like Cherry than they would have if they used Cherry to start with.
There has been a rush of Chinese doors online lately - big flashy sites with lots of razzle dazzle, marketing wise. These are coming from the same factories that produce for big boxes. The quality is abysmal, but people simply can't and don't know what to look for, and often it is not visible anyway. I spoke with a man the other day that was selling 40 to 50 container loads a month East of the Mississippi. And he is just one of many brokers in this business of globalization.
First off, the cope and stick joints are not glued (too much time and skilled labor to apply and remove the glue), but the dowels are, so in time, the stile and rail joints open up and will catch clothing, cleaning, etc. If the doors are veneered, this will peel veneer in no time. Veneered panels that are blister pressed often fail in time, with bubbles showing under the veneer. Since there is no way to repair such things, the doors are not only a waste of money, but also a waste of resources - disposable wood. The opposite of "Green"
There are regional reasons for buying doors manufactured close to where they will be used. Has to do with EMC and wood movement. Just the tip of an iceberg, so to speak.
But I do have my bias....
Dave S
http://www.acornwoodworks.com
About the shellac. It was used for best furnitures and it ages well. However, it is not as tough as the polyurethane. I think anything finished with shellac should be considered use with care. For doors, especially because of use it gets around knobs, you should use urethan to finish. Another thing with shellac is it does dry really fast. If you aren't familiar with shellac you could leave brush marks and overlap marks. Give it a try on a similar size plywood and see if you can finish with shellac to your satisfaction. Hope this helps.
I'm still waiting for a topic that Frenchy can't work round to a discussion on the merits of shellac or sips.
Why does everyone give Frenchy such a hard time:) I have never encountered someone as dedicated to a topic about bug secretions before. It is interesting to see how he weaves it in to discussions. Kinda been missing his chats on FWW.
Brad
K1c
Shellac is harder than poly, go ahead and test it. I know that seems wrong but you'll find it to be true.. As for the tough, well I have a 150# newfundland dog who absolutely refuses to trim his claws (or let us trim them either) this is a dog who loves to run and jump and put his paws on your shoulders as he looks down at you.
Anyway he hasn't put a mark in my shellaced floors. If those floors were poly I'd be resanding them by now! Since you don't walk on doors like I do on my shellaced floors I think shellac is a pretty great finish to use.. (plus it's cheaper and all the other features of shellac)
Plus my method of shellacing leaves no brush marks or runs etc.. What I do is over thin the shellac.. I use premixed shellac Zinsser's Bulls eye and add two gallons of denatured alcohol to one gallon of shellac. I just go ahead and flood it on. It dries in 15 minutes and then I sand with 220 sanding block or a 3M sanding sponge.. Real lick and promise stuff, all you are removing is the little nubs that get raised..
Then I flood on a second coat and a half hour later I flood on my third and final coat.. Oh if you want furniture deep gloss finish you can keep adding coats (just double the drying time per coat) If you are anal or want to really show off you could either color sand or French polish the result..
The wonderful thing about shellac is not only is it extremely tough but it doesn't need sanding to touch up! Each coat melts the previous coat(s) So you'll never have those edges that show so badly with poly or other finishes..
ps No I don't work for a shellac company! I sell construction equipment! (or did before I was laid off)
ps No I don't work for a shellac company! I sell construction equipment! (or did before I was laid off)
Maybe your answer to unemployment status is right there in front of your nose!
You don't have to sell me on the qualities of shellac, I'm with you on this one.
Doug
My experience with shellac has been different. I tried thinning too, but I thought thinning made it dry even faster. I use the same brand as well. Flooding may work but again it has to be worked really fast and I didn't want to risk using shellac on finished surface. It can be refinished easily but it is also subject to water and alcohol damage, which urethane does not. My choice was to use shellac as either sealer (thinned) or to give the finish amber color before urethane.
About hardness I don't know, I did assume that urethanes cure harder. One reason I assumed this was I saw lot of furniture finishes that had rubbed off, but this was really easy to recoat. But then shellac finishes may delaminate or crack, which also I saw on other furnitures and old doors. I think someone before applied shellac on waxed furniture. If anybody is considering shellac, they should try on throw-away wood and read up on professionals. George Frank's Advantures in Wood Finishing is good start.
By the way, any advice I give here is for other fellow novice readers. One last thing, if you're using shellac indoors or even in garage, your family may not appreciate the alcohol smell.
k1c
You are absolutely correct in that shellac dries really quickly.. that's been the bugaboo of most amature painters using it..
Hence my technique of over thinning and flooding it on. That prevents the usual steaking and ridging that happens with shellac as people try to carefully apply and go too slow so it dries on the brush..
Normal application is what's called a 2# cut. My technique reduces it to a 1# cut
Every painter I've ever seen will carefully go back and retouch spots.. that's something you can never do with shellac because it dries so fast. Going back will cause gobbing and a lousy looking paint job.
My overthinning and flooding it on approach eliminates that problem and allows the natural nature of shellac to work with you instead of against you..
You see each application of shellac melts the previous application and will smooth it out. If you should have a holiday just let it be. The next coat will melt together and you won't be able to tell where it was. That completely eliminates the streaking and ridges problem of normal painters.
Second to eliminate some myths. Again to remind you we are talking about interior doors not exterior doors..
Water.. It's pretty hard to keep water on doors since it tends to slide off <grin> (unless you have horizontal doors?) water does almost nothing to shellac unless it remains there for a long time.. One example I have is that my floors are all shellaced. I had an over flow of a window airconditioner one night. I turned it on and much later that night when I went up to turn it off there was a great big puddle in the middle of the floor. (it took three bath towels to wipe it up) It must have been there for hours.
I expected to see the floor have a giant white spot but apparently it has to be up there for more than 3-4 hours.. I do have one white spot from a wet glass placed on shellac overnight.. but It takes minutes, litterly minutes to repair.. No sanding, no muss, no fuss. Remember new shellac melts old shellac and makes invisable repairs..
2nd
Alcohol. What are you doing pouring 12 year old single malt scotch on doors instead of drinking it? <big grin>
But you need to understand something.. 100 proof booze is 50% alcohol. if you pour it over rocks you reduce it even further..
Add mix or wine or beer and you're hard pressed to get over 5% alcohol (10 proof)
While it will cause problems faster than water will it still does react pretty slowly. Normal housekeeping means you wipe up spilt drinks. If you do nothing happens.
But let's say something does.. all you do is take a rag soaked in denatured alcohol and wipe up the damage spot.. denatured alcohol is a shellac remover.. strips it off clean in a few short minutes.. even if it's been on for 100 years.. then simply reapply shellac.. remember each coat melts the previous coat and makes an invisable repair..
Next hardness. Because shellac is commonly used on fine antiques people assume it's delicate.. I have a 150 pound dog who absolutely refuses to trim his claws (or let me trim them) he runs and jumps around like a giant puppy. A dog like that will quickly destroy hardwood floors but my shellaced hardwood floors are virtaully mark free three years later. Plus I tromp on them in my work shoes without a single worry. Test it yourself.. take a piece of hardwood dip it 1/2 into shellac and half into polyurethane let it dry a month and put your thumbnail to the test. You won't be the first person surprised by that test..
Finally smell. Shellac is a soft sweet gentle smell by itself. What you smell is the same thing you drink, alcohol! If you don't drink alcohol then I can understand your objection. However the first coat of shellac will dry in 15 minutes, when it's dry all the smell is gone!
Look up Simpson Doors.
http://www.simpsondoor.com/
We have ordered them in the past, when we need/want a high quality door, they are great. You might also find a local millwork shop that can make them for you.
Either way, open your wallet, either option is going to be expensive.
There's a number of wholesale shops in Grand Rapids.
For my projects in that neck of the woods, I use Rzyenga's in Grand Haven.
Thanks for the lead. I'll check them out!
I got a kick out of your personal quote.
Did you look at Dave S. (Acornw) site? He builds some amazing doors. Artisan in Montana has some incredible products too. If you are doing a household, and want high quality you could post a request on the woodweb, but these will cost a quite a bit more than anything you may have looked at thus far.
Brad
When we started our project these were the touches we had hoped to incorporate, and I know we only get one chance, but the market here in MI is not cooperating.I will check out the site though.Thanks
Woodharbor makes a nice door - http://www.fdmonline.com/ViewArticle.aspx?id=25532 quality above Simpson or Jeld Wen
http://www.aboutus.org/WoodHarbor.com (website down right now)
Jeff
To me cherry or poplar stained to look like it are not "Craftsman style"
VG Doug Fir or QS White Oak..
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