We are going to be reshingling a house this summer, and will be replacing most of the exterior casings (5/4 stock).
The only composite product for this purpose that I have any real familiarity with is Miratec, and I wonder if there might be other composite products I should consider?
Do the Hardie people have any cementitious products i should be looking at?
********************************************************
“I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there.”
— Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Edited 6/24/2005 2:10 pm ET by nikkiwood
Replies
FHB had an article a few months ago on Miratec and its competitors, you might want to try to dig up that article. Lots of people seem to like Azec, however once I saw the price, Miratec looked really good to me. Planning on using Miratec for the first time two weeks from now...
Maybe it's the place selling it to me, but Azec was outta sight price-wise. 1x6x18' = $65!! Miratec for the same was about $14.50.
Plan ur cuts wisely with Miratec. They only come in 16' lengths and when I needed 0ver 20 corner boards 10' long I had to eat the waste.
I use a lot Miratec.
For the corner boards I set the table saw at 3 1/4" and rip the 6" board. I'm able to use the drops for windows or ripped further to 1x1 for shorter inside corners.
Do you always prime the cut edges, per the installation instructions from Miratec?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
You betcha! Take no chances.
That's one of the problems I see with some of the production siders. Cut it and slap it up. Let the painters take it from there.
Trouble with that is that some of the cut edges are sandwiched and out of sight and reach after installation so they never get coated.
I don't, as a rule, paint. And I can recommend but not force the customer to insist on priming before painting. They just see the extra cost, not the benefits. But I do, as a rule, prime ALL my cuts.
<<"FHB had an article a few months ago on Miratec and its competitors.....">>As I recall most of the composites they covered were for decking, which would not be appropriate for casings.Anything out there except Miratec and Azek?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
I've installed miratec before and dreaded it.... you have to prime every cut you make, you can't gun nail it...(penetrating the surface is a no-no per mfg.) so you have to hand nail it and it's a heavy material.
Yes Azek is nice to work with and comes at a hefty price...but some alternatives are Koma, similar to Azek (ask your local lumber supplier) or my exterior trim of choice primed cedar, if its available in your area.
Take a look at (I believe), an article called "The <!----><!---->New Forest<!----> of Man-Made Trim", in Sept 2004 FHB (Issue #165). That's the article I was referring to... That's where I came to the decision to try MiraTec.
Thanks to you all for your help. I like th e idea of WindsorOne, but it is not yet available around here. So it will probably be either primed cedar or Miratec.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Azek and its ilk, Synboard for one, are PVC products, not composits or wood pulp based. Their price reflects manufacturing costs inflated by the resilience of the material. It can't rot as there is nothing to rot. It is dimensionally thermoreactive but this is reasonably compensated for during installation. My qualms with wood pulp products is that when they fail, they fail spectacularly. The selling point for the PVC is their minimal maintenace. You will recoup some cost in labor savings without having to paint all the cut faces; installing a freshly primed board can cause paint to be leeched from the surface leaving a joint vulnerable but who wants to wait for the cut piece to dry?
Excuse my ignorance, primed cedar is just what its name implies?
I've been to a few builders supply and haven't noticed it. Is it readily available?-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWPD
It seems that availability of these different products varies by the region you live in.Around here, cedar is pretty much everywhere. That includes "primed cedar" -- which is just cedar boards (#2, I think -- with tight knots) that has been factory primed. If you're looking for "real" wood, as opposed to composites like MiraTec, you might check out Windsor One. It's an exterior grade Asian wood that has been finger jointed. It is not sold around here, but maybe it is in Florida.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
GP Primetrim
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
From what I can tell from their Website, it appears that Prime Trim is basically similar to Miratec -- an mdf style product. Have you used them both? Do you have a preference for one or the other?Thanks.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
I have only used the GP Primetrim but hesard that Miratec is similar. you could try the advanced search feature here to find discussions of it previous
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Go here: http://www.miratectrim.com/pdf/Installation.pdf
to see that you can gun nail the trim and repair holes caused by overdriven nails. With exterior grade wood filler and a little care I can make a hole disappear and look like the wood grain pattern was never disrupted.
Delete the pdf/Installation.pdf from the above address to access their site to read about the product.
They say it won't delaminate but it will, if you nail into the edge too close to a cut end or not in the center. It looks like layers of paper as it splits. You could face nail it with a railroad spike without splitting.
It's a little slower but I've also been predrilling and using screws when assembling the corner boards. Completely stops the edge splitting (except if you are way too close to an end) and when hanging a 21 foot corner by myself, it doesn't pull apart if it sways in the wind. (Assembled in 16' and 5' sections)
... and to Dante0The Miratec installation instructions say flat out that you'll void the warranty if you put their stuff up with a finish gun. If I use SS nails, dab some primer on the nail holes, then fill them with an exterior putty, I don't see what the problem is. The GP people (Prime Trim) seem ok with that approach. Customer has already told me he really doesn't like trim nails with the heads driven flush with the surface, which is what Miratec recommends. Can you guys give me any guidance on this?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
I've built several houses this year using Miratec trim and Hardi siding. The Miratec was gun nailed with a siding gun. Nails down snug but not breaking the surface - some needed to be tapped down a bit with a hammer. Used some Hardi 1by for some details and Hardi soffit. I can't understand why someone above talked about ripping his corner boards when Miratec comes in so many sizes. At my building supply they have 5/4 x 3, 4, 5, 6 and 1 x 4, 6, 8, 10, 12. They may have others, but that was all I needed. You do need to rip the inside corners, but most houses have far fewer inside corners than outside. Rips do make a mess of fine dust like any MDF type material. You use a wood blade on the Miratec and a FC blade on the Hardi products so 2 saws are in order. The Miratec is sized like regular lumber: for example a 1x4 = 3/4"x3.5" and a 5/4 x 6 = 1" x 5.5". It comes with a 25 year warranty.
Did one last year with Hardi trim. What a nightmare. Limited sizes readily available. Regular gun siding nails often bend when trying to penetrate the 5/4 making a mess. The stuff only comes in 10' pieces for the 5/4 stock and it breaks easily during handling - very brittle. The 1by stuff is a better (less brittle) but the stuff I had was actually 7/16" thick - it does come in 12' lenghts. It seems that the 5/4 stock is an entirely different product than the siding, soffit and "1x" material. The actual thickness of the material is 1/4" for the soffit, 5/16 for the siding, 7/16 for the "1by" and 1" for the 5/4 stock. Matt
I don't carry the Primetrim installation instructions in my jobsite book of goodies, but I think they require nails with a 3/16" head.
I would not use a finish gun simply because it mushrooms and/or leaves bare fibers showing. If the customer was opposed to seeing nailheads I would raise my price to reflect the setting and patching of all nail heads. Or, better yet, insist on Windsor One.
Windsor One was the other product I was trying to think of....doesnt look too bad either.
Edited 6/25/2005 10:15 pm ET by WoodRipper
I looked up WindsorOne, and I like the idea of using this product, but unfortunately, it is unavailable in my area (MN) at least right now.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Yeah, wasnt sure of availability of the Windsor product..but check out the primed cedar I think you'll like it. It's used by a majority of the builders in my area, Western NY. It's mostly all that I install for the builders I do trim for.
Re: primed cedarI'm guessing this is edge glued and finger jointed -- so's it has no knots and is dimensionally stable, right?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
The primed cedar...it is fingerjointed but is machined to standard widths (1x4 =5/8"x 3 1/4" 1x6= 5/8"x 5 1/8" 1x8, 1x10, 1x12 respectivley. A very stable product easy to work with not time consuming like the miratec or primetrim with all carefully driven nails and puttying to match and priming the cuts....you can finish gun it fill the holes and paint it no worrys about voiding warranties and its cedar so its resistant to rot and insects which im sure you already know.... I personally prefer this product....but to each his own..
Good Luck!!
Edited 6/26/2005 11:06 pm ET by WoodRipper
Havent seen any posts on this thread lately....just wondering what product you ended up going with.
Post some pics if you can..
Also replied to this to bring it back to the current list to get some more feedback from others.
Edited 6/28/2005 10:34 pm ET by WoodRipper
I've used both Primetrim, Miratec, Windsor One, HardiTrim.
Miratec and Primetrim are essentially the same product. Primetrim has a more roughsawn checked cedar appearance on one side and a smooth face with smooth edges. The edges if I remember correctly have a micro bevel. The 1x stock is only 5/8", I am not able to get their 5/4...why? I have not a clue.
I guess you know that Miratec has a cedar grain more like that of hardiplank on one side and 3 smooth sides. The edges have a slight roundover. I have only used their 5/4 stock and it is a true 1".
I sometimes use Windsor One which is a primed FJ exterior trim board. I prefer this for fascia. I have not been able to get it in 5/4 thickness maybe you will have better luck (It is made in 5/4). It is $7 a board more than GP Primetrim IIRC. Smooth all 4 sides with crisp edges staright as an arrow.
I have done a little with 5/4" FC trim but pretty much hate it. The edges are not as smooth as I would like.
For all trim boards I use SW quick seal on all cuts and typically use a nail gun with SS ring shanks as a nail starter then hand bang 'em flush. Gap joints and seal with NPC Solar Seal or OSI Quad