Andy sent me a motor. I have good use for it if I can get it running.
It is a dayton. 1-1/2 HP 3450 RPM Compressor duty. He said it was dropped about ten years ago, and has sat on a shelf since, because it would not run. It was not dropped from very high at all. It spins freely. I have it apart, and the centrifugal switch throwout mechanism on the shaft works perfectly. I’ll silicone grease that, just because. There is no burning of any windings anywhere. It looks pretty new inside. (After I cleaned out ten years worth of shop sawdust, and about ten pounds of packing peanuts. LOL) The ONLY thing that I can see inside that is even a bit suspicious is that there are rust spots on the steel of the rotor, and the steel of the windings, as if they may have made some small contact. This, of course, would be in keeping with having been dropped. But when spun by hand, there is no readily apparent contact. If everything else fails, I guess as a last resort, I will have to chuck the rotor up in the drill press. Spin it. And face it up a bit with a file or sandpaper, or the belt sander. … Now, what I know is this… The wiring diagram for 110v power… View Image Reverse T5 and T8 for reverse rotation. I wired it up accordingly. I put the power to the P-1 and to the T-2, T-5, T-4 bundle. When plugged into a 15 amp GFCI outlet, there was a buzz, and then the GFCI blew. The 15 amp breaker stayed put. The GFCI is what blew. … Ok… With the motor apart, I can trace all the wires… P1 and P2 both go directly to the thermal overload switch. From the thermal overload to the windings is T1 T2, T3, T4, and T8 all go straight to the windings. T5 goes to the capacitor. From the capacitor to the centrifugal switch, the wire is unmarked. From the cent. switch to the windings, the wire is marked AUX. … My own thoughts… The cent switch seems perfect. The motor never even begins to spin, so the problem isn’t there, anyway. The windings on both the rotor, and on the casing are in perfect shape. None of the wires that go to the switches, etc, are compromised in the least bit. Nothing loose. No bad insulation, etc. -Thick- teflon coating, as a matter of fact. So I am left with three possibles. 1. Thermal reset switch is bad. 2. Capacitor is bad. 3. There is contact between the rotor and the case. …. What I need… How do I test the capacitor, and/or the therm reset wsitch, to determine if it is either of those ? The only tool I have to test with is a cheesy volt-ohmmeter. And, do you see any flaws/holes in my thinking ? Any other ideas ? … The capacitor… I don’t have one the same size. I have a much smaller one made for a dayton 1/3 to 1/2 HP. The numbers and such on the capacitor are… Phillips. 3534B7A0815A110A5 A-2131-20 906 mfd 11v ac 60 hz 3629348 Thanks in advance for helping me figure this out.
Replies
Jeff,
I have no clue regarding the logic of your thinking and I especially have no clue regarding testing the capacitor.
But couldn't you just jumper around the thermal overload switch to check that???
Mind you, I don't really know if you could or not, but it seems to me.....
LOL!
Best of luck!
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Luka,
To test the cap set your ohmmeter for something like "ohms x 1K" and with the cap disconnected take a resistance reading. In one direction it should read open (or high resistance), with the leads reversed it should read low resistance and then gradually rise to high resistance.
Yes, that is right. Mr T is also right, at least with the capactor open.Also with the ohm meter he can check the overload, near 0.And also the motor windinds. I am guessing that the main winding is a couple of ohms and the start winding a in the 10's or maybe near 100 ohms.But I may be way off on those.You can't go my motor current in figuring the ohm because most of the "resistance" is caused by back EMF and inductance when it is running off of AC.
You lost me at overload, Bill.Exactly how do I do all this testing ?
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"You lost me at overload, Bill."Overload AKA, thermal protector. Basically a tempature actuated switch that opens if the windings get too hot.You said that it connected from P1 to P2, which makes sense at it would cut off all power.Ohming from P1 to P2 should show 0 ohms.
I just did exactly that, then came back in here and reloaded the thread, to find your post.=0)0 Ohms between P1 and P2.The third leg on that switch is T1 that goes back into the windings.0 Ohms between that one, and either of the P1 or P2 as well. Looks like the switch is solid.I even held the contacts while working the switch to see if maybe it was loose inside or something. The 0 Ohms stayed strong.
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Ok, tried that. Here's what happens...Either way....... Doesn't matter which lead goes on which terminal, it does exactly the same either way.Touch the leads to the terminals, and it immediately jumps to no resistance whatever. As if you had simply touched the two leads together.Then very quickly it goes back down to the bottom.Take the leads off, give it a second, touch them to the terminals again, and it does exactly the same thing.
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Sounds to me like the cap is good bro. I think only a shorted cap could cause your problem, and it certainly doesn't sound like that's the case.
Rich,I would have done just that if not for the fact that P2 goes to the bundle with T8/T3 bundle.If it were a simple one in, one out, I'd jumper it. But that P2 goes to two wires that go back to the windings.If you run it 220v, the P2 wire gets isolated and not connected to anything at all.Since I have never worked with this particular switch before, I cannot assume anything. But logic does say that when you run 110v you run the power to the extra windings, to have enough oomph to get the motor spinning. But 220v doesn't need the extra windings. So, when running 110v those windings get the power through the therm switch, from P1.Lacking any other feedback here about that therm switch, I will eventually jumper the T1 and P2 wires, at the therm switch. Then cut the P1 wire at the therm switch, and put an on/off switch between the power, and the jumper between the T1 and P2 wires. (Outside the motor, of course.)The real hassle there is having to cut or desolder the wire from the therm switch. I would rather have feedback from someone that actually knows the therm switch, first, though.
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if the cap is bad you should be able to get the motor going by spinning it to get it started.
Witty tagline...
I don't believe that's correct for the cap T... especially if it's shorted. But I'm the first to admit fractional HP motors are outside my field of expertise ;)
That's the first thing I thought of T.But I didn't want to try it again, because it threw the GFCI so quickly the first time.See, the kicker here is that to throw the GFCI, basically it has to be shorting out.Somewhere.If it is shorting out, then every time I plug the sucker back in, I am taking the chance of making things worse. I want to check out the electrical stuff as much as is possible this way, before I reassemble the motor and try it again.
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To trip the GFCI there pretty much has to be a short to ground. I think you should trouble-shoot that problem first.To verify, try this: Leave the neutral wire disconnected, and just try hot and ground on the GFCI. If it trips then you definitely have a short to ground in there.
That is exactly what I am thinking.But where ??I have tested every single wire in there, for short to the case. I am finding none at all.I'll go back and test it all over again...
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Use your ohmmeter on the highest ohm setting to see if you can detect any continuity at all (bad) between one of the hot leads and case ground. I'm betting that the shock caused a cut to one of the wires internal to the windings.
The other place that a short to ground may have developed is in the capacitor, if it's got a metal case. Your ohmmeter should be able to check for this -- should be infinite ohms from either lead to the case, with the leads disconnected.
Even with a cheesy ohmmeter, you may be able to test the cap. Disconnect one lead and then measure the ohms between leads on one of the higher ohms settings. The needle should shoot over to the low ohms side briefly, then rise back up towards infinity. Reverse the leads and try again and you'll see the same thing. If it doesn't register current flow at all, or goes to a finite ohms value and just sits there then the cap is probably bad.
Since this is an induction motor (from the sound of it), there's no point in "dressing" the rotor. You could easily screw it up worse doing that. So long as the rotor isn't dragging against the stator there should be no problem.
Dan,I wish the computer were out in the shop, or the motor were here by the computer. LOLOk, I went out and checked. There are no shorts whatever when the ground is connected to the case, and the hot is connected to any wire whatever, anywhere. I tested every wire.None of the wires are nicked, or loose, or in any other way, compromised.The capacitor has a thermoplastic case, not metal. And as I showed in another post, before I read yours, it acts exactly the way you say it should act.HmmmmStarting to look like the therm switch, 'eh ?The point in "dressing" the rotor was for clearance. The possiblity of dragging is exactly why I am considering dressing the rotor as a last resort. If I can get it spinning, I'll pay close attention. If I have to, I'll construct a jig to hold the rotor, and very carefully dress it only a tiny bit.
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Ok, puzzle solved.
At least seemingly.
I kind of figured that I would put it all back together, and it would work perfectly... Happens more often than not. Then you sit there and scratch yer, er... head and say to yourself... "what the heck did I just do ?" LOL
I put it back together.
I spun it up by hand, and then plugged it in.
There was a zap, and then it spun right up.
Unplugged it. Let it stop. Plugged it back in. Without spinning by hand, this time. Again a zap/hesitation, then it started right up.
Repeat 3 more times. The last three times, no zap, no hesitation, it just started right up.
This was with the capacitor just hanging loose on the side of the motor.
Ok... Hunch... look at the capacitor cover.
Yup...
When it was dropped, it was dropped on the capacitor cover.
It hit at the opposite end from the electrical connections, but it dinged the cover pretty badly. And it looks like it pushed the capacitor far enough forward to short the contacts against the cover.
The cover that is directly grounded to the motor casing, of course.
I am going to knock the ding back out of the capacitor cover. Then I am cutting a piece of rubber to fit in the end of that cover, to keep this from ever happening again.
I sure am glad I didn't have to cut any wires. LOL
I'll clean all the connections up really well now, and close it all up.
...
Thanks for the responses.
Sometimes, you just need feedback from others, to get the fog out of your own head.
I would have eventually found this on my own. But running back and forth, and assuring that I was indeed doing things right, kept me from second guessing myself, and taking much longer to get there.
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And now, a big thank you to Andy.I have a 10,000 pound winch that I really need to have working.2000:1 gear ratio. So just about any motor at all should have been enough to get a truck pulled up the hill.Some of you saw the welding pics and such when I took the winch over to Junkhound's place and we welded up a frame for it.The 1/2 HP craftsman motor that I had on there pooped out with the very least of resistance. I mean, with only me pulling on the cable, the motor overheated and popped the thermal.I am hoping this motor fares better. It is much newer. Just a bit lighter. And a horsepower more powerful.It also spins at twice the speed of the other one. So I am going to have to play quite a bit with pulleys.I should have something set up on the winch by the end of next week, so I'll know by then if this motor frosts the cake or not.If it doesn't work there, it will run the compressor I am rebuilding.Thanks again, Andy !!Man, I LOVE solving this kind of puzzle, and fixing/reusing something, rather than just going and buying something new.It sure is nice to be able to buy new if you need to, though. It can get frustrating if all you ever do is try to kludge/fix/reuse, and too many things in a row do not work...
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You're quite welcome Jeff. Since I couldn't figure out that simple problem, I'm clearly too stupid to own that motor anyway. <G> Hope it works.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Not too stupid at all.I completely dissassembled the thing, and tested 12 ways to sunday, to find the problem.Never actually found it. Just stumbled across it when putting it back together...
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Remember that "Great Moments" story aboiut the guy that got a new chain saw from the trash pile cuz the owner had the ... what? ... coil wire on backwards or something?
Maybe there's a Great Moments story here about getting a new motor cuz the cap is shorted out. Nah. Andy's too nice a guy.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Difference here is that I am not hiding the fact that it was a fairly simple fix.Well, fairly simple, plus, I had several other brains here working on the problem as well.But Andy knows the whole thing.He sent it to me intentionally. Keep it whether you can fix it or not.That guy got the chainsaw out of the trash. There is no telling if the owner would have given/thrown it away even if it was a simple fix. Ethics say that that homeowner should have been told how simple the fix was, and allowed to decide to keep it or let the guy have it. Or maybe pay him for having fixed it...Common sense says that they threw it out... They didn't want it. Period.But ethics would eat away at me had I been the guy to grab the chainsaw...
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Lighten up Jeffie. That was a joke. I know you spent a huge amount of time trying to troubleshoot the problem, but it's ironic that the ding suffered in the fall was the only problem ... that and the sawdust.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Didn't mean to seem "heavy".I guess the ethics of just keeping something like that just bothers me. Would I want someone to let me know, or just keep it for themselves, is the question I would be asking myself. Just seems like the right thing to do, to let them know.As for taking a lot of time to troubleshoot... Not really. Just time that was drawn out over a day. It had to be taken apart anyway, just to clean out the styrofoam peanuts. LOLAnd I certainly didn't max out the stress meter over it.=0)
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Neighbor bought a push mower, used it about 4or 5 times, hit a rock or something and set it out by the street for pick up.
I knew exactly what was wroung with it when I dragged it home.
One $1.00 flywheel keyway later, sharpen the blade and my son has a nice cheap push mower for free!
Not a drop of guilt or shame here. The previous owner was simply too lazy or just couldn't bother to fix it, and he's a handy guy.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I'm betting that you didn't -sneak- out there and take it.Nor did you care if the neighbor saw you fix it. Etc.The guy we are talking about did the whole thing in a sneaky manner. He very obviosuly did not want to "get caught". And he didn't want the previous owner to know anything about it.I guess that just sticks in my craw. He obviously thought in his own heart that he was doing something wrong.Then... he gloats about getting away with it.Just not good karma.
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Not to restart this whole thing, but my view of the chainsaw issue is that the writer did all of us a favor by keeping the saw out of the wastestream. Can't go on filling the dump with perfectly good chainsaws forever, ya know.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
RoflolGood point.=0)
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For loads of useful generic motor info, check out:
http://www.baldor.com/pdf/literature/PR2525.pdf
-- J.S.
Thank you !!!!Now that is a file to be studied !!
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I recall the episode.
Definately an underhanded tone to it.
Andy's right; the world needs us recyclers!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
P.S. In your shoes I would have done exactly the same.I would also have made sure the previous owner saw me working on it, and saw it running again.I wouldn't make a special trip to offer it back to him, but I -would- make sure that he saw all this. Then, if he came over and wanted it back... As a good neighbor I would point out the fact that he had thrown it out, and then I would offer to let him have it back at the cost of labor and parts... Cash up front, of course. You have to know that if you let the guy take it home, and just owe it to you, he would grow resentment about having to "buy his own mower back". Then, good luck ever seeing the money for the parts or your time...Get the money up front, and like as not, he is going to forget about that part of it soon enough, and just be glad he didn't have to buy a new one...
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About 15 years back (well, maybe 20) a large computer printer where I worked was causing problems. It would work for an hour or so and then one of the circuit boards would burn out -- the one that connected to the control panel.The CE was pulling his hair out, so once, while he was taking a coffee break, I got down on my back and looked under the unit at the control panel. There were a couple of switches and a couple of lights, with separate wires running to each. But if you looked real close there was a blob of solder with a sharp point on one contact, and through vibration (they didn't call this printer "shake and bake" for nothing) it had worn through the insulation of the adjacent wire. Didn't normally make contact, but with a little vibration there would be contact and the circuit board would be zapped.Left a note to the CE to examine the switches carefully. An hour later he bought me a cuppa.
Don't it always seem to go...
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I had one like that. Long ago, I got a calculator from the bargain table at Radio Shlock. Problem was that it wouldn't turn off. Even with good magnification, I couldn't see a solder bridge anywhere between the lands that the switch connected to. But I ran an x-acto knife thru there, and it fixed the problem.
-- J.S.
I think the missing 6 and 7 taged wires are the problem!
ROFLOLYou know, that thought bothered me for a while.Then I decided that the unlabeled wire, and the wire labeled AUX were probably what the factory had considered 6 and 7, even though they weren't marked that way.
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An update to the motor...
Major kludge job.
I was all excited, of course, because I got the motor running.
Shoulda knowed it was too easy. LOL
Well, the motor was still alright. Trouble was I picked a bad toggle switch, or DPDT switch.
Whatever the trouble was, it was in a switch, and was intermittent.
I got fed up with trying to find the problem in them, and just tossed them to the back of the bench. Instead, I kludged replacements.
Used a wall switch, a standard outlet and the cord from my old kakked T.V.
The wall switch is self-explanatory. On/off.
The wall outlet... I cut the tabs on it to separate the two oulets. Ran wires to one outlet, then crossed them, and ran them to the other outlet.
These two wires, I ran into the motor and connected directly to the T5 and T8 wires. That makes my outlets T5/T8 and T8/T5 respectively.
When I connected all the rest of the wiring, I substituted the two legs of the tv cord for the T5 and the T8 in the wire-nutted bundles.
Now when I want to reverse the rotation of the motor, I simply unplug the tv cord from one outlet, and plug it into the other outlet.
Since the cord and outlets are made to keep the polarity correct, there is no problem always getting the opposite rotation when you plug it back in.
Here's a pic of the working setup.
View Image
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switched are over rated ...
kids fish ... got a new 10 gal tank. Came with a hood and light. Since we never had a light before ... turned the damn thing off/on 4 ... maybe 5 times?
anyways .. last time I turned it off ... plunger switch and spring shot out the back ... with a bunch of parts and pieces. Finally took a good look at it ... the metal contact didn't make it's way into the parts bag .... so much for superglueing it all back together.
tryed to switch it "safely" with the power off .. wouldn't take.
So .. I plugged it in .. and shorted it "on" with a metal screw driver.
"stuck on" .... I just plugged the plunger hole with a big dab of silicon ...
and now the on/off ... is plug/un plug!
tried my best to over ride the whole switch ... but it's a sealed unit. Was just about to grab the hacksaw when I decided to stick that screw driver in "hot" ...
Works great now. Might even add an inline switch someday ...
probably not!
funniest part ... it's easier to reach up and unplug it than it was to reach over and hit the switch ... the plug is more accessable. Fish is happy ... kid is happy the fish "can read at night" ... all's well that ends well.
switches are over rated!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
So you have a screwdriver stuck in the switch, and siliconed in ?And this is on a tank full of water ?We gotta have a pic of that !LOL
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Ya know ... that would worked too!
just wear rubber soled shoes and push the screw driver in!
nah ... I tripped it "on" once ... took the screw driver out.
siliconed the "switch" hole shut.
times, they have a changed. I need that little screw driver just about every other day. Nowadays ... all kids toys hide their damn battery compartments behind little impossible to get at screws ... so I got a little Stanley "modeler's" kit ... and it's the most valuable tool in the kitchen tool drawer.
second from the smallest straight tip fit in there, btw ...
it's all my Dad's fault, ya know. He showed me how to find out which breaker was tied to which recepticle the easy way .... just cross it with a screw driver ... it'll trip!
something about working on railroad switch boxes that left him with absolutely no fear/respect of house hold wiring ... had me wiring "hot" when I was 14 years old.
Still do ... there's a "smart way" of doing such things ...
"smart way" ... doesn't involve tripping the beaker! That lesson costs extra.
over water ... borders on "stunt wiring" ... for educational purposes only ...
and my poor kid watched it all! ... I'm a bad, bad parent ... again ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
ROFLMAOOOOOOH are the electricity gods gonna get you.Good job, by the way. Silicone was a nice touch.(Keeps the kid from getting out the small screwdriver and emulating dad, too...)
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Jeff, your ingenuity continues to amaze. May I call you The Kludgemeister?
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
LOLI was once voted most likely to survive after a holocaust.Call me anything you want as long as it's not late fer dinner, or away from the table.
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By the way, for those that don't know...Kludge rhymes with rude food, not with fudge.
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Really? That's disappointing. I could limerick much better with nudge, grudge, and kludge than with kludge, rouge, and louge.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Actually, there are a number of folks who argue, with a good amount of authority, that it should rhyme with "fugue".
What ... so you don't pronounce the g in kludge?
This is as bad as segue.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Yes, the g is pronounced.Just like in dodge.The word is spelled kludge, but is pronounced kloodge. .......kludge or kluge Pronunciation Key (klj)
n. Slang 1. A system, especially a computer system, that is constituted of poorly matched elements or of elements originally intended for other applications.
2. A clumsy or inelegant solution to a problem.[From ironic use of earlier kluge, smart, clever, from spelling pronunciation of German kluge, from Middle High German kluc, from Middle Low German klk.]kludge v.
kludgy adj.
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For the first definition, does you dictionary show a picture of Prospero?
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
ROFLOLIt certainly does describe them, doesn't it ?
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