So maybe this is elsewhere I cant find it, looked in advance search , maybe not right place
New pressure treated lumber requires new stainless steal and special hangers
but the discussion comes in with me and the friends
one theory….that the new hangers and stainless are only needed when the wood will constantly be wet because only then will the chemical reactions take place that eat metal
so for instance,one friend says mud sills can go down with the old j-bolts, and the flooring and bottom plate with regular nails
another says not true anymore that even the flooring and bottom plates should be attached where they come in contact with the new pressure treated
so who is right
the guys at the lumberyard say that everything must be stainless , but they dont sell stinless j-bolts, but sure want to sell stainless everything else, including stanless wedge anchors at 12 a pop.
another says the simpson book says everything must be special, of course
the guys at Home Depot have no clue ( does that surprise anyone)
so what is the real answer here
Replies
From what I understand, in most cases, hot-dipped galvanized products are acceptable where previously, electrogalvanized products were acceptable.
Strictly in regard to mudsills with the new PT, whichever one of the four or more kinds it is, I believe that if the anchor is 1/2" or larger, the traditional galvanized method is acceptable.
My approach is to meet the standards that I can understand and to always choose the best method that my own experience supports.
We are in a world where individual experience may be more effective than the sum of official decrees.
this is about hte 43rd thread ive seen on this subject.
doesnt anyone check the archives or previous posts anymore?
tyke
Just another day in paradise
<48558.1
So maybe this is elsewhere I cant find it, looked in advance search , maybe not right place>
{or previous posts anymore?
tyke}
ROAR!
ok idont really know where it is, ive never really searched for it.but i have seen it here many times. i dont have time right now to search but ill try a little later.tyke
Just another day in paradise
thanks. Im new and did not know haw to do the archives, so I went to advance posts typoed in pressure treat anchors and nothing relevant came up
sorry to ruin your day
Edited 10/10/2004 1:45 pm ET by Isamemon
Sorry rez I guess it was tykes day I shot
I did find information in the archives now that I know how
but I did not see a answer for my question on if the corrosive actioinstill takes place in a dry environment. most of the articles and threads related to materils that went through a wet dry cycle like decks etc
I guess Ill call the local officlas in the morning and bug tem about it
again sorry to all you old pros for me asking a basic and repeated question
I doubt you'll get an informative answer from your local officials other than a regurgitation of test data by Simpson, et al.
Keep in mind that the testing is worst case scenerios based on the fact that dissimilar metals, moisture, salt and heat combined vigorously develop reactions, some more severe than others.
I haven't seen or heard of testing done on a single sill plate isolated from additional moisture, etc.
I have heard that the larger diameter anchors may be used unprotected but that's just hearsay.
Our anchors are not precast in the concrete so we can position them where they will not interfere with framing and not have to deal with those set too deep or directly under a post. We drill after framing and the epoxy squirts up through the clearance hole and insulates the anchor from the PT plate. All thread is then coupled to that anchor and extends through the top plates to provide the uplift protection to the whole frame.
I don't think that anyone really knows about how corroisve a problem that there is in a "dry", but moist application such as a sillplate.
All of the testing that is done on fastenrs is excerated testing and that is accelerated with additonal heat and water.
But I think that Simpson's recommendations are that nothing special is needed for 1/2" or larger.
To find thing in the archives you kind of have to experiment with the search terms. And the best I can figure is that is only looks at the text in the message and not the titles.
I used ACQ ANCHOR SILL and got these two.
http://forums.prospero.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=37752.1&search=y
http://forums.prospero.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=42432.1&search=y
heh heh
old pro I ain't. Just another homeowner. One day we will rule the world!
There's a slew of questions that repeatedly come up but they are all from different folk so no one rides anybody for that.
Your question really isn't that common here except in all the unvoiced minds of the many who read BT, as a lot of data dealing with the ACQ is still being formulated.
It's still too new on the scene to have much hard evidence except group consensus that it's trouble from the word go.
Glad yer here.
Grab a moisture meter and test a piece of wood anywhere in your house.....i garantee it will never be "zero".
Usually it will vary from 18% down to 8%(dead of winter with a gas furnace)...assuming you do not have a leak or moisture problem.
Chemical reactions can and do happen below the 18% level...albiet more slowly.
No one has released an info determining if ACQ is hygroscopic...it may attract and hold water molecules, thus allowing continuation of the chemical reactions.
The minimum fastener quality is for triple plated (not hot dipped as used in coastal construction)metal hangers and hot dipped nails. Electroplated does not count...even on the old CCA they rusted within the first few seasons.
The specs do allow for standard steel fasteners with diameters 1/2" and larger. The premium quality hangers and nails specs are for Stainless steel.
"They" do not explain the chemical reasoning attached to these specs. I can see the reasoning behind the hangers and nails...they are not very thick and a small amount of corrosion goes a long way in reducing the load carrying capacities of triple plated hangers, which are not hot dipped.
But the allowed usage of raw steel 1/2" (anchor bolts)and larger befuddles me. I know that once corrosion starts it generally proceeds until it consumes the available chemicals/materials, or the by-products of the reaction shut it down(ie..batteries).
I doubt this spec! I think in a few years we will dig into a sagging ACQ structures and find the 1/2" steel spec bolts and anchors corroded past their intended capacity.
Product chemicals are often considered proprietary and thus we are not going to be priviledge to the chemical/reaction information. Thus the information may be manipulated for what ever purpose or profit by the owner of the patent/copyright on the product wants.
This will shake out in the future. I do not want to be "shaked" on!...
My customers will be informed, and it will be documented. CMA/CYA.
.............Iron Helix
In "non-coastal" VA the minimum is hot dipped not triple plated--
Office of Building Code Services12055 Government Center ParkwayFairfax, Virginia 22035-5503703-324-1980
February 3, 200404-03
PRESSURE-TREATED LUMBER
On January 1, 2004, the wood preservative industry began the phase out of a variety of pressure-treated wood that contains arsenic (CCA). The new alternative wood preservative methods (ACQ, CA and CA-B) will affect all residential uses of pressure treated lumber including sill plates, fences, and especially decks. Click here for more information from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.
As tested and as reported in numerous publications, including one from the National Association of Home Builders, chemicals in the new methods will prematurely corrode standard fasteners, hardware, and flashing that were previously acceptable with CCA pressure-treated lumber. Industry, wood preservers, and the building code community have responded with requirements to ensure that metals in contact with pressure-treated lumber will not deteriorate. The table below outlines the specific requirements for components associated with pressure-treated lumber. These products are available at most home center stores and lumber supply yards. Please note in all cases, electroplated galvanizing is NOT acceptable.
Component
Requirement
Nails, screws, lag screws, and bolts (steel bolts 1/2" diameter or greater are exempt)
Hot-dipped zinc galvanized, stainless steel, or approved for use with ACQ, CA or CA-B
Hardware(joist hangers, anchors, clips, and angles)
Hot-dipped galvanized with a 1.85 oz/sf of zinc (G-185 coating), or stainless steel (type 304 or better). Look for products such as "Zmax" from Simpson Strong-Tie or "Triple Zinc" from USP.
Flashing
Copper, stainless steel, silicon bronze, UV-resistant plastic
Nice to see Virginia stand-up and put it in writing.
I assume that someplace there is a federally suggested criteria, also.
In our rural area of Illinois, things are not as clear.
Contractors and materials suppliers seem to be on their own to figure out what is best.
It is ignorance, &/or indifference that is added to the general attitude of "the cheapest" that will generate future problems.
Last week a new entry deck & steps set to a new doublewide(a local favorite) nicely assembled with 16 sinkers and set on 4" solid concrete blocks which were on top of the sod. At least it doesn't have far to fall.
.................Iron Helix
Just a quick note to say that I've been seeing a lot more Hot Dipped gal. J-bolts around than previously.