We just paid a large sum of money to have glass block windows installed in the cellar of our 1905 house. Huge job, but two terrifically hard working guys got them installed in a 12 hour day. Neat job, looks good, little mess. We are very pleased, although as a DIYer, I’m not used to paying others, so I felt pain as I wrote the check. Would definitely recommend this company.
Now for the complaint – the estimator was a PITA. We, the homeowners had next to no idea how much this was going to cost. What I would have liked to have had is first of all an estimate of a probable RANGE of costs, from X to Y, and then to refine this quote by discussing its elements: type of block, mortar, number/type of vents, etc. Instead, the guy BEGINS by showing us types of vents, discussing their advantage, jokes about people peering though different block patterns, etc. I practically had to shake him to say about how much is it going to cost: 1000-1500? 2000-3000? Over $3000? What? Then we can talk about vents. (This was after he had measured the windows, so he must have known about how much it was going to cost. Why not tell us off the bat?)
Replies
It sounds like he wanted to talk about his product but all you may have wanted to hear about was price. Haven't you ever bought a new car before? Same gig. I'd guess he probably has a normal routine for a sales pitch that he was trying to get in to but you probably weren't receptive to that because your number one concern seems to have been cost.
I'm not saying either of you is right or wrong in your tact, just offering a possible explaination for the two different perspectives.
I'd have to side with the estimator on this one.
Too many times I've talked to someone about a job, and gotten to a price too quickly. Then they want to throw in this and that, change things, etc. Pretty soon there are a whole bunch of numbers out there, and the customer gets confused.
Seems to me it's better to define what a customer wants first, THEN start talking prces. Although if that's what he was doing, it crtainly wuold have been better to explain it...
Boss, I see your point, but unless you have some idea of what things will cost, it's hard to knww what you really want. And this is a funny job -- I always have some idea of what the materials for a carpentry or plumbing job will cost, so I can judge whether the skill and experience of a pro will be worth it to me. But glass block windows in a stone foundation? I had absolutely no idea.
Put this into perspective - for a house or standard addition there is a ballpark square-foot cost estimate available. That's then modified based on all sorts of details. Before you even begin talking to a contractor, you would know that an addition would cost around 70K, say. If you don't have that amount of money, there is no point in wasting the contractor's time. Later you can talk about what kind of crown molding you "want".
Dieselpig said it was a "pitch" - I didn't want a pitch, I wanted a quote. The price was reasonable, the workmanship excellent -- I didn't need to get hustled.
It sounds to me like he was just asking you if you wanted vents or not, geez. If he took up more than a half hour of your precious time then yeah I could see maybe he was trying to up sell you. But it sounds to me like this company has an estimator who likes to cover all the details just as much as their installers like to cover all their details. They're all just trying to do an outstanding job but some people just never want to be happy.
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Edited 4/16/2007 6:28 pm ET by EJCinc
You can't have it both ways. Either you know a lot about what you want, have a clear set of plans and specifications for the estimator, and just want a price OR you are unsure about what you want, have no specifics for the estimator to work with and need someone to figure this out so that they can give you a price.
Put this into perspective - for a house or standard addition there is a ballpark square-foot cost estimate available. That's then modified based on all sorts of details.
There is no ballpark square-foot cost estimate available. There are many available and they are not useful in quoting a job. They are useful for preliminary budgeting. That's it. Any estimator who gives out a number without knowing as many of the particulars as possible is just going to get himself or his company in trouble.
There are ways to avoid the unnecessary time and trouble of this. Find someone you trust to do the work, give him a general idea of what you want, and tell him to use his judgement in making any necessary decisions. There is no need for any estimate in this case. While this might not seem like a good way to do business, it actually can work out quite well, if both parties are happy with the arrangement.
You're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
Also, a "pitch" isn't necessarily something bad, instead it describes an approach.
One approach would be to toss out a ballpark, then discuss details. That's what is sounds like you wanted.
Another approach would be to measure, discuss and then carefully offer a fixed set price...which is what you got.
Both of these are "pitches". Different "estimators" use different "pitches" depending on their personality. Neither is righter, nor wronger.
I often think along your same lines when someones "estimating" something for me. If they don't quickly get to a ballpark, I'll go crazy and stop them in mid-pitch and explain that I need a ballpark to make sense of the details. If they won't give me a ballpark, I'll ask for a ballpark within $1000. If they cant give me that, I'll ask to get it within $10,000. If they can't give me that, I'll ask for a ballpark within $100,000.
At some point, they realize that I want a ballpark and I'm going to get one darn it!
You failed to take control of the presentation, but it sounds like you got what you wanted. Don't look a gifthorse in the mouth.
blue"...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Your first mistake was believing that the "estimator" was there to give you an estimate. That was a salesman doing what salespeople are trained to do. So you had a classic head game going on, with only one experienced player. I'd say that you did well, or were lucky, to end up with a good product and a good installation, no matter what you paid for it.
how long did the total estimate meeting take?
I'm with you on that one. Unless the vent is going to double or triple the price, give me the overall price range before we start talking about little details.
But I suspect we're not the typical clients they run into. As Diesel said, they may be more focused on salesmanship...which I can see working for a lot of folks. Get them excited about something and maybe they won't notice the cost.
jt8
"We ourselves feel that what we are doing is just a drop in the ocean. But the ocean would be less because of that missing drop."
-- Mother Teresa
Are you saying that they started and completed the job without you having ANY idea what it would cost?
Mike
I'm glad to hear you received a professional job and are happy with the results.
Personally, I rarely give out any kind of cost number for a project until the formal proposal. I've found that giving a number without enough facts and time to dwell on the project will inevitably lead to a number less than the actual cost. When the formal proposal arrives, and the price is larger than expected, the clients usually hold some resentment, as though I'm trying to screw them over. People hear the number, and subconsciously lock that in.
The first part of any project, as a homeowner, is to determine what you are willing to budget. Then determine your project parameters. Using your parameters, I can draft a proposal, which you will compare with your budget/expectations.
Often I'll go to a meeting with clients and come away with no defined scope of work, because they are not sure what they want. You tell me what you want, and I'll submit a proposal explaining what/how I intend to achive your goals, as well as how much it costs.
I don't do projects larger than decks or kitchen remodels, so take my opinion for what it's worth.
Bottom line is, you received a job well done. There are plenty of folks who would gladly trade places with you, and their stories can often be found on this site.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
the other side of the coin is when a guy shows up and says I can do this for $XX.00, the you talk about all the options and circumstances particular to that one job. then he has to amend his quote and you feel the need to ask what happened to $XX.00?
like someone else pointed out, you got a nice end product - be happy
Whenever I've given a price without knowing ALL the particulars about a job - including what materials the customer wants - I've been burned. That first price sits the customers' head and any deviation (unless is cheaper - which it never is unless the scope of work gets scaled back) gets the "I'm getting screwed" juices flowing.
Since your material selections; block style, vent style, etc, impacted the price the estimator needed that info to even get to a ballpark. If the estimator didn't give you a price after getting your input then you have a real beef and may be worth a call to one of the principals of the company as a suggestion for improvement.
The end result was a good job, right? Don't worry, be happy!
-Norm