Reading through the ‘jobsite ethics’ post and the responses, I have a related but different question, this one from the customer’s perspective (mine):
Scenario: Electrician working on my house, has two employees, one of whom is the owner’s son. The OTHER guy is a past customer of mine who happens to owe me some money, and I know things are pretty tight for the guy and his family.
The electrician is working T&M on my job, with the understanding (and acceptance) that this is my house and I can do as much of the rough-in as I want on weekends, and he will follow behind and finish whatever I can’t do, or don’t feel comfortable with. It’s a good deal, and we’re both happy. If something I do doesn’t meet code, he has told me that he will rip it out and do it right and charge me the time, and I am OK with that.
Now here’s the ethics question: can I approach his employee, ask him if he’d be willing to work nights and weekends with me, at a reasonable equivalent “rate”, in order to pay off his debt? His boss wouldn’t know who did the rough-in on the weekends unless he told him; they could assume it was me. Should I ask his boss? I also don’t know if he’d be willing to put in that extra time – he might just want to pay up. I don’t know what’s right to do, I haven’t talked to anyone yet.
Replies
I'd ask the helper if it's in the realm of possibility to work off the debt. If he seems interested, before there is an agreement, I'd ask the boss it was OK.
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It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Not a bad idea.
But no way would I do it without talking to his boss first.
If he "just wants to pay up", he should. Or, he should at least have the cajones to talk to you about working something out. Nobody likes to owe money but if he's working on your house with you there for part of the time and he hasn't said anything, he may be trying to get you to give up on collecting the debt.
Your whole deal is whacky. Why not drag another problem into it. Go ahead, triple the price of your electric.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
That makes the most sense. --------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
around here you cannot talk to another company employee without going through the super first.. 2+3=7
Talk to the boss first.
Jon,
Here's what I would do.
1. Talk with the guy who owes you money. Ask him if he would be interested in working extra to pay off. If he says yes, I would mention to him that you will be explaining the situation to his employer. I would let him know this so he would avoid potential embarassment if the boss did not know.
2. Talk with the boss if the employee is interested. You have an open relationship with him so far, he may or may not go for it. It's really up to him since you need his credentials and he has to look after his own interests.
3. If the debtor doesn't seem interested let him be until the work is complete. I detect that the guy's debt is not necessarily fresh, so I would let it lie fallow for a little while so you don't potentially sour things for your electrician friend.
Above all, #2 is essential.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
This whole idea has so much more potential for downside than for upside, that I would forget it ever crossed my mind. Puirsue the debt in whatever maner you normally would and keep it a separate relationship. He is probably already having a hard time dealing with working in the house where he owes you and could be having a hard time focusing on the job at hand. Maybe not. Maybe he is mature about it all. or maybe he doesn't even care
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Jon-
One thing I feel uncomfortable with is how do you talk to the boss without badmouthing or hurting the employee?
"Gee, your employee X over there is a deadbeat that owes me money, but he said he could work it off..."
or would it sound like --
"Your employee and I were talking and he wants to do some side work for me..."
I can't see Mr. Bossman being really happy with either situation. You've already got an unusually sweet deal going with the boss. Why risk screwing it up for yourself and maybe for everybody else too? I'm with Piffen on this. Stop being greedy. Get another idea and get rid of this one.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
hurting the employee
What happens when the debtor is working off his bill, and drills a hole through his hand? Wouldn't JonE be on the hook for a workers comp claim? Maybe some tax problems if he is forgiving a large debt? Just curious, from a legal standpoint.
Bowz
Hi Jim -
You are right about the insurance issues. I can't tell you how many of those claims I saw over the years. Nobody asks the question until somebody gets hurt, then all of a sudden, it's "Who'se employee was he?". Then there's the famous - "Well, he just started this week and we didn't get to add him to the insurance yet...". In NY and Jersey too, IIRC there's a special fund for the uninsureds who need comp. Then they typically track up the chain to see who is the first one that has insurance and he gets tagged. They go back and whack whoever should have been paying. Some homeowner's policies also cover workers for comp, but you need to read the policies.
On the tax issues, the rule is that if you forgive a debt, in most instances that is considered as "income" - read "taxable" to the person who owes the money. In many cases with personal debt the IRS doesn't find out about it and doesn't care. With the fancy bookkeeping and computer records, I heard they have gotten many more than they used to. Banks are a big one. If they take less than the mortgage amount to close out a loan, that's reported to the feds and often that starts the investigation.
Is this situation a potential morass? No question.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Does he owe a lot of $$--I'd definitely have him talk to the boss--may be you can all do it together before the SUPERBOWL!
Jon, you obviously haven't read that other ethics thread too closely.
Everyone lambasted the original poster telling him that what he was doing is unethical. That's a given.
Now, you want to put this employee in the same situation. I was going to lambast the Archtect in the last thread for using his position to drive wedges between business associates and now you want to do the same thing.
I agree with the other posters: you have to start this conversation with the boss electrician first, before you even ask the employee. If you ask the employee first, you put the boss in the position of looking like the bad guy if he doesn't want to deal like that.
I'll give you credit for asking around here first...or at least I hope you did!
blue
Why not see if his boss is willing to hold back the amount owed to you from his helper, and credit to your final payment, that way you get yours, the boss gets his mark-up and overhead for the time worked, and you are protected by his insurances etc.
Edited 1/26/2006 7:21 am ET by PearceServices
You are confusing/ mixing 2 issues and involving:
a) You have an Aggrement with the Boss to do electrical during weekends, on your own. Aggreement is loose enough that you can take on as much work as you want. I am sure the Boss assessed your abilities prior to aggreeing to this.
b) You now want to use the Boss's guy (regardless of reasoning) as a private electrician. This affects your "ability rating" as understood at the time of the Aggreement. Also, the "private electrician" if hired has a built in conflict of interest. Is he your employee or his Boss's? How is it determined in 4 weeks that the work done this week and needs to be redone, was done during the weekend or during the week? If he moves slower/ faster during the week does that affect the workload during the weekend. By having this job during the weekend, is he less likely to work for the Boss weekends somewhere else?
You already have a very sweet deal with the Boss electrician. When would you want to muck it up? I don't know of any electricians who would let someone else run their wires. Appriciate what you have and stay in contact with the debtor. Your arrangement should be with him alone.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
By informing the sparky's boss that one of his employees has a debt problem, you can do more harm than good, even with the best of intentions.
Everyone's work has a "signature". If this persons boss knows his work, the boss will know that you didn't do the work.
I wouldn't even approach the employee that owes you money on his employers' time unless it had to do with the task at hand. If you remember him, I'm sure he remembers you.
Let it go.
If anything, I would try to open a one on one line of communication after the job was done.
If you've got work going on at your house BESIDES electrical work, I don't see any problem having the debtor work it off in trade.
The 3 of you (yourself, the electrician, and the debtor) sound like a very civil bunch. Good for you.
-Don