I have posted this question before with no difinitive answers. Electrical in finish basement:
50-65watt recessed lights, fart fan, 20amp in bath and 4@ wet bar,dishwasher, small undercounter icemaker, Tank pump for bath,40 recepticles,Dedicated outlet for av equipment(surge protected), And room to add if needed.
Whats size sub-panel will we need? The house has two existing 150 amp panels in the garage. There is room.
Thanks for the help guys! -Lou
Replies
is that 50 each 65 watt lights???
how do you intend to sub the panel to the basement???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I made a mistake; Its 45each at 65watts. We will feed the sub from the garage thru conduit or build a chase for it. The distance is about 35 feet from the main panel to the sub in the basement. There is an existing 60amp there now with nothing in it. I just did not think it was big enough. Does that help
Thanks, Lou
looks like another 150 panel or at least a 125....
a hundred amp won't have the spaces ya need...
now for 64 million dollar question...
can the feeders support all of this....
at a run of 35' can any circuts for the basement be put into the two panels in the gitradge???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Can the feeders support it? I dont know. I'll have to do the calculations
How many sq ft?
The normal is 3 watts/sq ft for both lighting and general purposen circuits.
Then add in the NAMEPLATE rating the appliances.
If you go to the name magazine extras there is a worksheet for entrace sizing. Use that, but for an application like this you can't take any of the demand reductions.
While you probably only need 60-70 amps (just guessing) and you can use that for the feeders and feeder breaker you probably want a 100 amp sub-panel so that you have enough breaker slots.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
>50-65watt recessed lights, fart fan, 20amp in bath and 4@ wet bar,dishwasher, small undercounter icemaker, Tank pump for bath,40 recepticles,Dedicated outlet for av equipment(surge protected), And room to add if needed.<
Actual load calculation is suggested here. Appliance nameplates + anticipated loads on recepticles + lighting in watts.
The existing empty 60A subpanel has a maximum of 14,400 watts available, a service loading at 75% yields 10,800 watts.
45-65 watt lights would consume 2925 watts (24.4 amps @ 120v), if they were all on at the same time and would probably be your largest single load.
>40 recepticles< Powering what? A wall clock and an occasional vacuum cleaner, or a wood working shop? NEC allows some absurd sounding number of recepticles like 10 or so on a circuit - actual load determines if you will be happy with the performance.
Likewise the 4 recepticles at the wet bar - powering what? A household type blender and a beer sign at 500 watts total, or a commercial frozen margarita machine? The bath outlet will probably power a 1200 watt hair dryer as it's maximum.
You may be just fine with a 60A subpanel and feeders. You will not know until a realistic load calculation is done. Another point to investigate - is the subpanel really a 60A rated panel ---- or a 100A rated panel which is connected to a 60A breaker and feeders? Depending on load calculation outcome perhaps your could just change the feeders and breaker at the main panel.
Open the panel, get out your magnifying glass and read all of the stickers to find out the panel rating for sure.
What may well be the determining factor is the number of available slots in the subpanel.
1 for the bar, 1 for the bath, 1 - dishwasher, 1 - icemaker, 1 - lift pump, 1 - AV, 3 - can lights, 5 - recepticles - I am up to 14 slots at this point - if your existing panel has 20 slots you might be OK depending on the predicted load calculation. That future growth consideration..........
My gut reaction is that a 100A subpanel and feeders would better serve your needs, but I have been wrong lots of times.
Run the numbers to be sure.
Jim
Jim, The 20 amps for bar is just for general plug ins (blender, small undercounter fridge,nothing thats gonna draw much) General 15amp outlets(nothing special) just to be code. When you say 100amp panel and feeders does that mean 100 amp breaker at the main panel feeding a 100amp sub in basement or 100 amp subpanel in basement with 60 amps feeding it from the main. Is it 6-3 copper to feed 60amp sub panel. So I need 20 slots your saying.
Thanks for the help, Lou
"I have posted this question before with no difinitive answers."You have not answered with the specific details either.Have you run a load calculation yet?"When you say 100amp panel and feeders does that mean 100 amp breaker at the main panel feeding a 100amp sub in basement or 100 amp subpanel in basement with 60 amps feeding it from the main."The rating on the feeder breaker has to be equal to or less* than that of the feeder. The sub-panel has to be equal to or larger than the rating of the feeder breaker.* The breaker can be increased to the next standard size. But the feeder can be uprated.Standard sizes are ... 45, 50, 60, 70 ... 90, 100, 110 ...#6 copper ROMEX is limited to 55 amps. But if the if THNN and conduit is used and the feeder breaker and sub-panel terminals are rated for 75*C (which they most likely are) then # 6 is rated for 65 amps.Most 60-80 panels only have 6 or 8 slots. But some with take tandem breakers and can go up to 16 poles.Without more detailed specs I suspect that 60 amps is enough power, but that the nunber of slots in an 100 amp panel will be better to work with..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
See BillHartmann's post above.
We are trying to find out several things so we could help a bit.
1) Run the load calculations so we have a better idea of what is being powered.
2) Seeming confusion on breaker / conductor / panel ratings. I could take a panel which was rated for 60A, feed it with #6 THHN in conduit, and install a 30A breaker - this would be perfectly legal (breaker is less than maximum permitted). Likewise I could take a 60A rated panel, feed it with #2 Aluminum, and install a 60A breaker (conductors are larger than required) - this would also be legal.
PERHAPS your case - I could also take a 100A rated panel, feed it with #6 copper Romex, install a 60 amp breaker - and that would also be legal (rating of the panel is greater than the breaker and conductors) as the breaker becomes the "limiter" which avoids overloading the conductors or panel.
We are not going to be of much help until we know the predicted load on the sub panel.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edited 4/12/2008 5:54 pm ET by JTC1
the fly in the oinment....
feeders rated to the breaker and not the panel....
and if at a latter date the breaker size is increased at which time the capacity of the feeders is then exceeded....
here, I think, space count is very important....
a guess says he ends up with a 125 or 150....
but.....
can the primaries handle the collective of three panels.... not on actual load caculations but because of the collective panel ratings... all because needed spaces...
so ...
send some of the HR's back to the existing 150's in the garage...
drop a 60 for the basement.... or maybe a down rated 100......
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!