Live in the Seattle area and am a paint contractor. For years, I’ve used Purdy brushes, but Benjamin Moore stopped carrying them when they got sold and their quality dropped. Home Depot still carries them, but they ARE pretty much
now. Benjamin Moore carries their own line of brushes and they don’t measure up to what Purdy had before they were sold.
Another paint store in the area (Dalys) carries Corona brushes after dropping Purdy. They are also
.
Can any one recommend a quality paint brush? Something I can either get in the area or over the internet. You just can’t be precise with crappy brushes; it’s like trying to paint with a whisk broom.
Replies
USA made Woosters...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They make'em here in OHIO. I get the rejected ones at the flea market sometimes. They're real nice brushes. The rejected ones usually have a bad ferrule, or a defective handle with just smeared labels. Sometimes the flea market vendors think they have gold bristles on them though.
i buy purdy rejects on ebay,think there just as good as the 18.00 in the store. usally pay 5.00 for 2" taper.if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Ditto on the Woosters - I don't do a lot of painting (yet) but I've bought a couple of them at Lowes and these are the first paint brushes that I've ever used that I didn't throw out after I used them. Just rinse them out and clean them well and STORE THEM ACCORDING TO MANUFACTURERS DIRECTIONS and I'm a happy camper. I've told many people about how pleased I am with them. They cut in around ceilings really nicely too!
I wasn't that impressed with the last Purdy I bought either. I thought maybe it was the paint.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I got to thinking (always dangerous) that I like some of my Purdy brushes but not others, and I realized that we should try to figure out which Purdy brushes are decent and which are cr@p. Attached is a photo showing the three types I have. I like the oil brush (red label with aluminum-colored ferrule and 100% natural black china bristles), like OK the latex brush (green label with aluminum-colored ferrule and 100% dyed nylon bristles), and hate the "all paints" brush (brown label with copper-colored ferrule and nylon/polyester blend bristles). The "all paints" brush with the copper-colored ferrule and nylon/polyester blend bristles separates and clumps like others describe and is not worth using.
Maybe we can get some feedback on what types of Purdys work for people and which don't work. Hopefully it's not as simple as the old ones are good and all the new ones are cr@p.
Billy
Edited 7/12/2008 12:18 pm ET by Billy
Here's more. The Purdy website lists the many different brushes they make -- there are two pages of brushes and you have to click to get the second page:
http://www.purdycorp.com/catalog/brushes/
The XL brush is the "all paints" brush that I don't like because it separates and clumps.
One possibility is that cheaper lines of Purdy brushes are flooding the stores, but that they still make good brushes in lines that are harder to find. But I don't know -- I'm just guessing.
Billy
Edited 7/12/2008 12:32 pm ET by Billy
Edited 7/12/2008 12:33 pm ET by Billy
i had to get up and go look at what i do use,it is the xl "dale" brush,i have always had good luck with them.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
I'll post an image of the label when I get a chance. I remember that they were running about $24-26 for a 3" brush. They are the most expensive brushes SW sells.I usually only use latex paint - eggshell or semigloss for trim.Best brushes by far that I've used.Very good for cutting in at the ceiling - you are basically painting upside down and the paint just flows right out of it.All the good brands are whoring their name out these days, so you cannot buy just on brand.JT
Edited 7/13/2008 10:26 am ET by JulianTracy
I'm generally skeptical about people complaining about decline in quality: "Purdy brushes used to be better but that was when plywood had no voids, teenagers were respectful and all women were beautiful." Well, I did the experiment -- I used one of my old Purdy brushes, the one I replaced with a new one, and there is no comparison. The old one is simply better. Holds more paint, the bristles don't separate and it cleans nicely. This, and its replacement, are 2.5 in angled sash brushes, with the coppery ferrule. I think they are supposed to be for "all paints", which is ridiculous.So I agree with the other posters -- Purdy has genuinely gone down. I have a couple of the so called better brushes (stainless steel ferrule), and they are marginally better than the coppery XL brushes, but not a lot. The bristle separation problem makes tham difficult to use and makes painting trim more of a hassle than it needs tob be.So now what? Are we all supposed to buy fancy European brushes from shops in Vermont? I've got a lot of trim to paint, and I'm seriously perplexed.
I sent an email to Purdy telling them they should have a technical representative provide comments here. It would be good to give them a chance to respond and provide some insight.We'll see what happens.
Billy
What do you expect him to say? "We've outsourced our britsle manufacturing to China and they don't have the same regard for quality that we used to have." Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't know if it's that simple. It may be they still make decent brushes in their high quality lines (Julian thinks they do in their "Blue" line named after you?), but they came out with some cheap mass-market brushes with the Purdy name that flooded the store shelves.
But I don't know what they will say, or if they'll show up here.
Billy
Jeff Clarke gave link to a distributor of Epifanes brushes in earlier posting (Jamestown Distributors in Bristol, RI), but check out the manufacturer's website at http://www.epifanes.com. Euro style round and oval brushes mostly, great for curved surfaces and bullnosed edges - hold lots of varnish or paint.
I was finally able to get down my final coats of varnish (was that the sixth or seventh coat?) using their oval brush on Honduras mahogany tub deck, vanity and laundry counters in wife's new bathroom without the runs on each bullnose on previous attempts with other brushes.
I do like the idea of the pointier brushes by Lee Valley for doing inside corners of window jambs, casings, etc. Will have to try them out next project.
Also mentioned earlier in another post was the Omega brushes. Similar to Epifanes, but with much larger range of brushes, http://www.omegabrush.com. Also available through Jamestown Distributors, although only certain styles.
Bought too many Purdy brushes for paint work and also had same problems listed by many others before me on this thread before I found out Purdy was bought by Sherwin Williams. Here a link and excerpt of some of that text.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb053/is_200409/ai_n13137640
"Sherwin-Williams has acquired privately held Paint Sundry Brands Corp., a maker of brushes and rollers for professional and DIY markets, in a deal valued at $295 million, including the assumption of certain financial obligations at closing
Paint Sundry's line of brushes and rollers includes Purdy, Bestt Liebco and Symphony brands."
Finally, I do like the Corona brushes that I've used so far (http://www.coronabrushes.com), and they are readily available at every paint store in my area. The Tynex Nylon laid down Muralo 563 primer and the Muralo Ultra waterborne paints well. While bristle marks are still there (and boy were they awful with every Purdy brush I tried!), they're pretty fine marks with the Corona, so much less visible.
Ultimately, I think it's just a fact of life as we get further away from oil paints, waterborne paints just don't flow out nicely and tack up way faster - even with additives (such as Floetrol and/or water).
Advise on which brush for which paint from knowledgable paint store owner and my paint contractor was invaluable for my do-it-myself projects.
Appreciate the testimonial on Epifanes brushes. Ultimately, these are the posts that will help those of us who can/will no longer use Purdys. Anyone else who can give us some first hand experience with a superior brush, please post.Purdy bought by Sherwin Williams? I hate dealing with them and can't stand their paint. The Corona Chinex I bought on a recommendation was absolutely awful. It starts out supple and quickly goes limp. Becomes impossible to use in no time. The other annoying feature of this brush is that latex paint dries quickly on the outside bristles and builds up into little globules. Reminds of what the back legs of a bumble bee look like when it's collected a lot of pollen. Big pain in the *ss. Sounds like the Tynex Nylon might fare better. Latex paints, generally, simply don't level like oil does, but up until recently, the brushes I bought performed admirably. This is a new phenomenon... poor brush quality and it's really having an impact on those of us who depend on a good brush to do a professional job.
Try using a few ounces of XIM latex extender plus Floetrol in the latex - the XIM does improve leveling quite a bit.
Jeff
A few ounces in a five gallon can? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
No ... per gallon. RTFM ;o)Jeff
Thanks. I'm no painter but the last time I painted, I could have benefited from that info. I forgot all about those products. I think I was just adding water. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks for the tip on the XIM extender - that's what I was trying to accomplish by adding a bit of water... I'll try out your way next time.
One other thing I wanted to add was that one of the earlier posts mentioned something like "after several hours" the bristles did this or that..... I find that if I get to a good stopping point and I'm an hour or more into the brushing, I stop & clean the brush - then continue on. That deals with the latex or waterborne paint drying too quickly on the outer bristles of the brush.
My good brushes (the Epifanes and Omega) get hung in a tall Rubbermaid container in deisel fuel just over the bottom of the ferrule. They're used only for clear finishes. If I was to want to use them for paint, I'd get new brushes and a new container and always keep them separate. All brushes get spun after cleaning, a quick combing, and another spin should the combing free up more particles from the brush.
Since we're trading secrets, here's the best paintbrush cleaner ever made - http://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Power-Dish-Brush-44094/dp/B00027CBT4/ref=pd_sim_hpc_1
Try it - you'll like it.
Jeff ;o)
Sometimes I'm nut sure if I'm bright enough to know when my leg's being pulled or whether you're being serious.
Dawn power dishwash brush? Do I have to use Dawn detergent? or is Ivory or Joy okay?
Don't knock it til you try it. And you can use solvent if you want to - it's battery powered.
Jeff
I didn't think you were kidding since I use a scrub brush on my paint brushes too. I don't use a battery-powered one, however. I find that a simple, very stiff nylon scrub brush works well. Of course, I always scrub in one direction, with the bristles.
Exactly. "We're making more money off of you by charging the same for an inferior brush. What's your problem with that?"
Great idea! Not sure, given the quality degradation many have seen, if they'll be eager to show their face here. We shall see. Bottom line for me, however, is what their brushes are like now. What will some technical rep be able to tell me that would change my current assessment of their brushes? Is it likely that they will revert back to the quality brush they were once known for? That would be a first, wouldn't it?
I haven't bought one of Purdys oil brushes lately, but I've bought both the green label brushes and the brown label brushes within the last year and I don't see a big difference in quality between the two, i.e., (poor). Given Purdys new ownership and my track record with these new brushes, I don't expect (if I were to stupidly keep buying them) to come across a good quality Purdy anytime soon. I would expect that all their brushes are now suffering from a degradation in quality. From what I've read, this is all about reducing the quality of the brush, sell it for the same price (or more), and reap a greater profits. What a stupid, greedy, shoot-yourself-in-the-foot, strategy. How long do they think they have before their sales will beginning dropping off?
Edited 7/12/2008 1:07 pm by redoak
Right, it's all about riding on the brand name and increasing profit while quality suffers. I'm hoping they keep quality in some of their lines at a higher price, though. Maybe the "blue" label Purdy brushes that Julian likes?
Billy
The most recent problem I had with an angle brush (and I don't remember who made it, only that it was not cheap) was that it was limp after about an hour--like trying to paint with the end of a cotton rope. I thought maybe I had grabbed an oil brush and was using latex, so next day I grabbed another and had the same problem. These brushes had yellow plastic handles. My fave was a brush with a maroon handle, or another with a wooden handle--have to find where I put them! They were springy and put the paint where I wanted it.
Man, that sounds like the Corona Chinex brush I wasted my money on. They start out firm, etc. and invariably go terribly limp. They're a synthetic bristle of some kind. Reminds you of a white Chinese bristle brush you would use for oil, except these are supposed to be used with latex. They clean up easily and regain their shape if you put them in the sleeve and let them dry, but they're only good for an hour or so before they go limp again.
More interesting brush links:http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=781
http://www.anza.se/Templates/ProductViewSubGroups1.aspx?PageID=80e0e384-67da-4fa6-b52e-7ffc9cb59b76&SubGroup=8e0b604b-bc34-4d1f-973f-b45fe953facc&SubGroup=f44d5411-6e5b-494e-b975-592107bf9dad&SubGroup=7399e373-12e5-4fc0-846f-c8de67b0b397&SubGroup=1b40f8c3-262c-463a-b32d-b2761bc2d43f&SubGroup=bc3de15f-83fc-497a-9893-4b10a8f4c532&SubGroup=f8d90985-2e7e-4383-b3fe-d7e5df69a612&SubGroup=53072dc9-a753-464e-97a6-4c78313242ff
Thanks, Jeff. That second link to Anza's brushes looks like it covers just about every application you would need a brush for. Also looks like you've got to commit to buying at least 10. Noticed that, aside from one or two choices, there are no angled brushes here.
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk/hamilton.html
http://www.paintbrushesandrollers.com/
And this might explain the Purdy problem:
http://www3.purdycorp.com/docs/features/15.pdf
I like round brushes for window sash and such, I think I had my last one stolen. Still looking for some replacements both synthetic an natural. If ya saw any anywhere.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere,Lee Valley has some. I have one and love it...http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=20038&cat=1,190,43034&ap=1- KitTechnique is proof of your seriousness. - Wallace Stevens
Hot Diggity!
I am ordering tonite!
Don't know how I missed looking there.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
vanderpooch,Great link. Answers a question I had for reinvent. Will have to try them.
Edited 7/10/2008 11:38 pm by redoak
Glad to be of use...Technique is proof of your seriousness. - Wallace Stevens
I've never used round brushes. How do you get the bristles into the corners? Do they work as well as an angled sash brush?
I can't speak for others , but I can paint a lot more accuratly with a round brush. Not an artist's taper, but more of a rounded end. By rolling the handle the shape of tip is constantly staying wet, and tight, or a slight mashing action allows pushing into corners of mitered sash in and exact line. I hate seeing goobers of paint hiding an other wise flawless joint, like a cope and stick.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Yep. And I've used 'em with good effect when doing molding with lots of detail, like fancy crown with dentil. Good for getting in between stuff without overloading the paint.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
reinvent,Have you actually used either of these brushes? Have never used the round ones. I know they're common in Europe.
No but they seem nice. I will have to ask the guys at Johnson Paint in Boston.
I haven't bought one in a while, but the Woosters used to be real nice. I'm a bit worried that I've seen them at Lowes though.
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
I bought a Wooster today out of desperation. Haven't used them before, but if they're selling them at Lowe's that's not a good sign.Found out today from a salesperson at BM that the Benjamin Moore brushes are, in actuality, Wooster brushes! I thought THAT was weird. I should compare the prices. BM probably sells the same brush for more than the Wooster's retail for.
I bought a Wooster today out of desperation. Haven't used them before, but if they're selling them at Lowe's that's not a good sign.
I hope they haven't gotten cheap. Or if the ones at Lowes are cheapies, I hope Wooster still has their professional grade line. I had one 3" $15 Wooster that lasted for YEARS. Always gave me a great finish.
ended up forgetting to clean it once and it turned into a rock. Someone here on BT gave me a recomendation for loosening it back up, but it was never as good after that.
I've got about 6-10 of various Wooster professional brushes that I use (just DIY paint jobs, I'm not a painter). jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
John,Too early to say how this brush will hold up over time. At this juncture, two days in, the bristles of my 2 1/2" angled Wooster, seem a little too stiff for cutting a fine line. I had to turn the brush 90 degrees in order to have the necessary control to lay a line of paint along the outer edge of a door jamb. When the bristles are too stiff, the excessive spring and the tension created by that stiffness easily causes the brush to veer off of the trim and into the wall (if the trim abuts the wall at a 90 degree angle). Only another painter will probably have a clue what the hell I'm talking about!
I like your passion for brushes. A good tool makes the work better, easier and more enjoyable.
I have tried a variety of brushes and have settled on a few favorites, but I think a lot of the discussions about "what's a good brush?" is a lot like asking "what's a good car?". It depends on variables like the intended purpose and price vs. value.
For brushes, the variables are many: the paint, the weather, the surface and the painter's technique. I have started painting with a certain brush that I usually like and then decided that it wasn't the right brush at the moment and switched to another brush. I prefer stiff brushes because I tend to paint with the tip rather than the whole brush. I don't like when the paint works it way all the way up to the ferrule because then I spend too much extra time scraping it off the heel.
For trim, I like the Purdy XL series. It's a soft brush that gives me a nicely leveled finish. I haven't noticed any recent changes to these brushes, but I haven't bought any in at least a year. For ceilings, I like the E&J or Benjamin Moore brushes. For walls, where I do most of my cutting in, I like the E&J GenX brushes. These are fairly stiff brushes, but the paint flows off of them very nicely. These brushes don't have as long of a life-span as most of my other brushes, but I still only need to buy 1 or 2 a year.
Don,You're right; other variables come into play. You can have a decent brush and still run into trouble because the trim paint you're using just sets up too fast, or is too thick, or has paint globules in it, etc. C2's semi-gloss, for example, sets up way too fast and must be cut with a latex extender, which, I still find, doesn't give me enough time before the leading edge starts to get tacky. I've since come to dip the tip of my brush in a bucket of water every so often to keep that necessary wet edge.I've previously used Purdys almost exclusively until recently. I can't tell you when I started noticing a degradation in their quality, but it probably happened fairly recently. The other Purdys I still have perform better than these new brushes. Yes, these new Purdys also have a greatly reduced life-span (which adds to the aggravation). I won't buy them anymore, period.BM's brushes, as I noted above, are actually made by Wooster. I'm not terribly impressed with them or the Woosters. I think the older Purdys were a better brush than the Wooster/BM brush of today.Hence my frustration in finding a truly quality brush. I intend on following up on the links provided by those who have posted on this thread and see if I can find better brushes.
I just bought a Benjamin Moore brush today and used it to cut in a ceiling. I was painting white on white so it wasn't the most demanding scenario, but I was reasonably pleased with the brush.
I'll stick the the E&J GenX brushes for cutting in walls (they don't work well upside down because the paint flows backwards too freely), but this 2", $12 Benjamin Moore brush will be fine for ceilings.
Wooster is a brand of brushes, not a brush.If I counted right they have 26 different types of angled brushes. So saying that you like or dislike a Wooster brush is meaningless.http://www.woosterbrush.com/products.asp?id=174
http://www.woosterbrush.com/products.asp?id=174&itemid=92&itemcounter=11
http://www.woosterbrush.com/products.asp?id=174&itemid=430&itemcounter=21.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Where did you get the impression that I think Wooster is a brush and not a brand? As noted above, for example, I've stated that all of BM's brushes are actually made by Wooster. So, maybe I should qualify what I've been saying and state (for those who are sticklers for the truth) that the Wooster's I'VE USED to date have been less than impressive.My main complaint has been with the Purdys, however. I've only just started buying Woosters because they seem to be what the paint stores in Seattle are carrying now that the Purdys have been dumped and relegated to the big box stores like Home Depot.
Purdy has their brushes organized differently.It looks likey thaty have 12 differnt bristle types.http://www.purdycorp.com/catalog/brushes/Then within given line they have a large number of different style of brushes. Different shape of the tips, different lenght of bristles, different thickness.In addtion to different handle and cut type.For examplehttp://www.purdycorp.com/catalog/brushes/list/12Now does Lowes handle all fo the different lines and styles?.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
At this juncture, two days in, the bristles of my 2 1/2" angled Wooster, seem a little too stiff for cutting a fine line.
Yeah, the bristle need to be supple enough that you can guide it around trim countour without having to pick the brush up.
If it is too stiff now, do you expect it to soften up with use? I probably wouldn't have the patience to try and break it in.
jt8
"A little 'enthusiasm' and all problems seems small!"
You might want to try over here:
http://www.painttalk.com/
J
jjf1,Thanks for the link. Looks promising.
Google Nutec and Maryland Brush Company, see if they are still being made......I love my Nutec brushes, but I don't use them day to day, so they will last me...they were pricey, and may have been priced out of the market.
The best I've used are the blue tipped Purdy's.
They are a bit more expensive than the brown labeled ones, but I've had a few that have lasted for years with great results.
You can get them at the SW stores but not at the Home Depot's around here ( in MI)
JT
Julian,I don't believe I've ever seen a blue-tipped Purdy out here?Sounds like an exotic bird, doesn't it?
SW stores? Don't have these around here (Seattle, WA)
SW stores? Don't have these around here (Seattle, WA)
I found that difficult to fathom, so I checked... http://www.sherwin-willams.com shows 10 retail stores in the Seattle area.
Jason
Ah, Sherwin Williams! Thanks, Jason.
I haven't bought a brush in years, but the ones I have are purdy and wooster, all 5-13 years old.
Sad to hear Purdy has gone downhill.
Mongo
I dunno...we used the expensive Purdys for painting on our place and they worked great - no shedding, held & delivered paint well, and you could cut a crisp line with 'em quite easily. Bought 'em all at Sherwin-Williams.
Jason
wow that sucks !!! purdy brushes were the best
I havent noticed anything wrong with my purdys.
Are there better brushes?
Have I been living with blinders on?
Santa Claus is real, right?
Talk about coincidence -- this week I've been having terrible problems with new Purdy brushes (my old ones finally got heeled). Very disappointed -- a typical failing is that the bristles spearate into two clumps when you are cutting in. In effect you are trying to control two brushs rather than one. Thinking it was me or inadequate washing, I bought a new one -- same problem. These are 2.5 in sash brushes, bronze ferrule, for latex paint.I've got a house full of trim to pint. I may try the Lee Valley round brushes,
Now that you mention it. I have the same problem with them. I thought it was because my brush is getting a little old (about a year).
Interesting. I guess i'll try a wooster next time around.
My Purdy brushes are all cr*p. The bristles separate into separate clumps, as you describe. The individual bristles lose their tone, so to speak, i.e., they lose their straightness and become warped or wavy, etc. It's really a serious frustration when you need a functioning brush for detail work.Yeah, you're wasting your time and money with these brushes.
Woosters seem to be a better brush...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
http://www.finepaintsofeurope.com. niiiiiice!!!
Yeah their paint is uber $. But it goes on like auto paint, real smooth and evven.
E & J (Elder & Jencks) - http://www.paintbrushheaven.com/SearchResults.asp?cat=44&RefineBy_Manufacturer=Elder+%26+Jenks&RefineBy_Price=&Search=
Pro-form still makes oval brushes - http://www.paintbrushheaven.com/product_p/pf-co30s.htm
Jeff
Edited 7/11/2008 8:33 am ET by Jeff_Clarke
Everyone will probably roll their eyes at me. I am NOT a painter, but I've done A LOT of painting of all types in my day. I've spent 'big bucks' (ooh ... maybe $12-14!) thinking it would solve my cutting in problems. I don't like masking ... I'd rather cut in any day than mask (for the most part).
I think my wife bought an inexpensive Rubbermaid brush at Walmarche' one day. Best cutting brush I've ever had. I could cut in holding and drawing it in just about any direction. Smooth, fast, easy ... and consistently. It was like a 3" angled (not sure if that is the right term) bristle. Have no idea what it was made out of ... nylon, is my guess. It cost like $7. It made me look like a pro. I could cut in a 10-12 ft wall against a ceiling in a matter of minutes.
Then my wife didn't clean it ... I think it's ruined. And Murphy caught up w/ me ... couldn't find the same brush again.
Wish I knew about brushes and stuff ... I just know when painting gets easy ... only then do I like it.
Funny that you mention rubbermaid. A while back i was in walmart, hardware section and noticed they had a bunch of things on clearance. items around a dime to a quarter on the dollar.
saw a bunch of these brushes for $1 each!! i thought they'd be fine for one-off, throway small jobs. bought all i could. ended up liking them well enough to clean tehm and resuse dozens of times. Not a big loss too if too tired at the end of the day and dont feel like cleaning them.