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We pulled up our carpets and found a nice red oak hardwood floor.
The problem is whoever built the houses (about 1949) in this neighborhood installed the baseboard first and then the flooring. This means the bottom 5/16″ of the baseboard is not visible and it has no nail holes. Per reports from neighbors it’s a huge pain to pull out as the (long!) nails were driven in below the floor line. We have had half a dozen floor refinishers come by and only one has even heard of the stuff before and says it’s popular back east.
We love the baseboards as they seem to be part of the floor. E.g., the floor smoothly coves up and then curves back into the plaster walls.
The problem is we need to get some more for repairs. It also seems like it’ll be a lot of work to refinish the things. We are in the San Francisco Bay area.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Marc
Replies
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Mark,
Yes, I have seen "inset" baseboards of the kind that you mention in old (1800s)houses here in New England. Perhaps they were done that way so as to not have wet plaster fall onto the finished floor during the process of plastering the walls and to avoid difficulty in fastening the baseboard. That is, the baseboards would first be nailed directly into the wall studs, then plaster lath and plaster would be installed on the wall above, with the result that the baseboards would be aesthetically "inset" into the plaster wall. Only afterwards would the finished floor be installed. In addition to protecting the finished floor, maybe this installation order was used in part because it would have been difficult to tack on baseboard over dry, brittle plaster and because the inevitable unevenness of the final plaster coat would not allow for a nice, gap-free fitting of the baseboard over it. Obviously, this method was not energy-efficient as it allowed so much possibility for drafts.
Can you explain in more detail what it is that you would like to do? You said that you have a nice hardwood floor and baseboards that you love. What is it that you are considering pulling out and why?
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Best solution:
Replace the carpet.
Pete Draganic
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Scott,
The "inset" is into the floor rather than the wall. The walls were plastered down to the sub-floor. Next the baseboards were nailed in along the bottom. Last, the hardwood floors were installed. The nail heads in the baseboard are concealed by the floor. The baseboard and floor appear to be one seamless unit (they are not, it's just the way it looks) and the top of the baseboard curves back and is angled at about 45 degrees. The edge is flat against the wall.
We have two problems.
1) We need more baseboard that matches. A wall heater was removed and there is some damaged baseboard in a hallway. I think we'll end up having the stuff milled for us.
2) We need to find a floor refinisher that's willing to touch the stuff.
a) First guy had never seen the stuff, wanted to tear it all out, and then decided it was too much work and left without bidding.
b) Second guy had heard of (though never seen) the stuff and told us to paint it. He did not want to refinish it along with the floor.
c) Third guy has never seen nor heard of the stuff and decided to bid just the floor and would not refinish the baseboard.
The issue is we want to sand/refinish the things to match the floor. I'm thinking I'll have to do it myself the thoughts are:
a) Build a custom sanding block. The curves are not complex, just a concave at the bottom, angled up for about an inch, and convex curve that goes back to the wall.
b) Use a chemical stripper leaving only moderate sanding.
c) Rip it all out, fill the 7/8th gap in the floor with more flooring, and installed "normal" baseboard on top of the floor.
d) Don't do anything and live with the baseboards that don't match the floor after it's refinished.
With normal baseboard you can just pry it off the wall and refinish it on a work bench or replace it. To get this inset stuff out I'd need to remove the first row or two of border from the flooring. The nails hold it in are very long and since the upper edge is very thin it's going to be huge pain if I want to get it out without breaking the stuff.
As Peter says - just put in carpeting. I'd do it but we really like hardwood and my daughter's asthma has cleared up since I tore up the old carpeting.
Marc
*Marc,As in many cases, there is probably a way for you to repair the inset baseboard while leaving it in a clear finish to match the hardwood floor. It sounds like that would require some very careful if not tedious woodworking, however. You would have to decide whether it would be worth the expense if you have someone else do it, or whether it would be worth your time and effort if you do it yourself. If it would really maintain the aesthetic integrity of your home, perhaps it would be worth it.Based on my understanding of your problem, this is what I think I might try to do: First, I would determine exactly what lengths of baseboard would have to be removed. If you could remove a whole unit of baseboard rather than just a section of a unit, that might be beneficial. However, if the whole unit is very long, it might be better to remove only a section of it. After determining this, I would have identical wood custom milled to the exact thickness of the existing baseboard. Assuming that the existing baseboard is level, I would then cut the new baseboard at both ends perfectly square with a fine-toothed electric miter or radial-arm saw. I would then carefully scribe this new board against the old section of baseboard that I want to replace with a sharp marking knife. (Make sure that the new board is held perfectly level against the old board during scribing so that later both ends will match up to the same height of the ends of the existing baseboard on either side after it is fit into place.) I would extend the face-side scribe lines to the top edge of the old baseboard using a marking square so that they are perfectly perpendicular to the face of the board. Next I would preliminarily waste away the wood between the scribe lines of the old baseboard with a chisel leaving about a quarter inch or so of extra space to protect the crispness of both scribe lines. Don't wiggle the chisel against these crisp scribe lines. Completely remove the bad section of old baseboard, cutting down below the level of the hardwood floor by half an inch or so, taking much care not to damage the crispness of the edge of the floor board. After this has been done, very carefully trim off the remaining quarter inch of wood on the bad side of the score lines. This is the most critical step for assuring a very nice retrofit. Do it by placing the blade of a very sharp chisel into the score lines (with the beveled part of the blade facing the wood being trimmed off) and cut perfectly perpendicular to the face of the board. In this way the quarter inch or so of excess wood should be sliced off quite easily and with great precision. Make sure that the top edge of the old board is precisely trimmed of as well. It is vital to use a very sharp chisel and to work carefully. You may want to cut away a little extra of the wood towards the back on either or both of the boards to make to the actual retrofit easier, as long as you don't affect the crisp squareness of the scribed cuts. If all these steps are followed, I think the retrofit should go in rather well.As for sanding the old baseboards, maybe you could rent a small specialty sander designed for this type of work. I think that Fein Power Tool Company makes such a sander. Finally, you would have to try to match the original stain as best you can. The darker the stain, the more likely that the retrofit would blend in without being noticed.Hope this helps.
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if you decide to sand yourself you might look into "profile" sanders. Porter Cable makes at least 2, the better one (120.00?) is variable speed. They use sticky back sandpaper on any one of a variety of snouts, work great for oddball stuff like what you have.
beware of lead based paint dust! - yb
*My idea, if you really want to save everything,especially if there is a border around the entire room, is to remove as much of the border as necessary to get to the bottom of the baseboard. pull out the nails or drive them through with a nailset, it wont matter if the bottom is damaged it will be covered when you reinstall the flooring. Remove baseboard refinish it, get some new milled to match for the bad places, reinstall it, reinstall or install new border, and refinish floor. It wont be easy or cheap, especially if you pay to have it done, but it should look as good as new.
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Marc,
Just a few more things you might consider:
1. Since the baseboards were installed over the plaster, it may be possible to remove them without damaging the border of the floor. You may be able to slide the long, flexible blade of a Sawzall or similar between the baseboard and the plaster wall. The Sawzall will cut through the nails and free the baseboard. Drive a finish nail partly into the baseboard and grab it with a vicegrip or pliers to help you pull the baseboard up if it won't come up easily. You can fill the nail hole when you refinish.
2. You could also choose to paint the baseboards the same color as the walls instead of trying to match them to the floor. Then you can use MDF instead of oak to patch in the damaged/missing section of baseboard. Painted baseboards will not stand out as much, so with a paint finish it may not be as critical if you don't get the profile exactly right. You can also repair damaged parts with wood filler or putty if you are going to paint.
*Marc,Best solution:Replace the carpet.Jim Yates P.E.
*Here is an update.On replacing the carpet - One interesting challenge caused by these baseboards is that they cove up from the floor level and then slopes back at a 25 degree (from vertical) angle before curving back into the wall. A neighbor just replaced her carpets and the baseboards really threw the carpet guys for a spin. It turns out they tuck the edge over and use the baseboard to help hold it in place. Since ours angle back there is nothing to hold the tuck.Both my wife and I really like the hardwood floors and don't want to go back to carpeting. Plus it will help with our daughter's asthma which has already cleared up since we pulled out all the old carpeting.Refinishing the baseboards in place - I did one wall by hand. It's a slow but steady method.Just plain ripping it out - I can get a shim and then crowbar behind the baseboard but it then hangs on for dear life. It's anchored in by the floor butted up against it and by the nails. As I can see the nails when prying it away from the wall I need to get a Sawz-All and see about cutting the nails. I should then be able to left the base board straight up.Removing the strip of floor border immediately next to the wall and then pulling the baseboard out - This went pretty smoothly though I wonder if I should replace the border with new wood. Our floors are top-nailed with two nails every 5 to 6 inches and I assume the replacement nails will not hold as well. Since the floor immediately next to a wall is a low traffic area (except for cats and mice) I don't think I'll worry about this point too much.It was a fair amount of work to take it out this way though is a way to do it without breaking the wood up.The baseboards are held in by 2 inch #6 nails driven every 16 inches. 1/2" in the baseboard, 3/4" through plaster, and the remaining 1 1/4 inches into wood.Now that I have a baseboard out on the bench I see that the original floor installers made a mistake. They were supposed to lay the floor up to about 1/2 to 1/4 inch from the wall and put this baseboard on top of the floor.I want to refinish in place. My wife wants to rip it out and put in a new baseboard plus shoe molding to cover the 3/4" gap.
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Please save the baseboard. As details like this become lost they remain lost for ever.
If the nails are finishing nails and you can find them, drive them through the baseboard with a punch, then remove the base, then remove the nails from the plaster so that you can reuse the nail holes. If you saw them from behind the nails will be hard to remove, but this is an alternative as is refinishing them in place.
There is no substitute for elbow grease.
*Marc,Hire a good floor person to strip and finish the floor.Hire a good painter to strip and finish the baseboards to match the floor. You'll wish you hired a painter after about three hours of stripping anyhow. Unless you're really an eager type.You can make a sanding block with bondo or a similar product if you decide to go for it. A heat gun works really good if you make sure not to burn the wood. Wear a respirator (not a dust mask).Good Luck,Dan
*Marc couldn't you take a jamb saw and cut the baseboards flush with the floor ?? Finish inside corner cuts with a sawzall . Refinish the molding then reinstall . You could even raise it up almost 1/2 of an inch and shoe molding will finish it off . Lot of work and you would have to be carefull but if you really want to save it I think this will work . Suprised your flooring contractors didn't suggest this . They already have the jamb saw .
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We pulled up our carpets and found a nice red oak hardwood floor.
The problem is whoever built the houses (about 1949) in this neighborhood installed the baseboard first and then the flooring. This means the bottom 5/16" of the baseboard is not visible and it has no nail holes. Per reports from neighbors it's a huge pain to pull out as the (long!) nails were driven in below the floor line. We have had half a dozen floor refinishers come by and only one has even heard of the stuff before and says it's popular back east.
We love the baseboards as they seem to be part of the floor. E.g., the floor smoothly coves up and then curves back into the plaster walls.
The problem is we need to get some more for repairs. It also seems like it'll be a lot of work to refinish the things. We are in the San Francisco Bay area.
Any thoughts?
Thanks!
Marc