Replies

1. 
   Frank_"Mad_Dog"_Maglin | Dec 21, 2000 02:32am | #1

   *
   Jim,

   I use the confirmat screws from Mc Feeleys and find them to be as good as any other confirmat type screw.

   Mc Feeleys also sells the step drill for alot less than most. I think it's around $25.00. I broke the one I had half way through a job and when I went to order another it was on back order for about a month. From now on I'm ordering a spare.

   Just curious as to how far apart you place your confirmats for casework. I've heard different opinions on this. Do you dowel your casework together or do you cut dados? I used to dado everything but once I started building full access cabinetry on the 32mm system I dado no more.

1. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Dec 21, 2000 04:09am | #2

   *Hey Frank - 25 bucks is a buy, I paid 40 for mine from my hardware dealer. And yeah, a guy should have a spare for that and a spare step drill for the Kreg jig too. I've broken a couple of those in the past year. (today I saw your post at cabinetmakeronline lookin' for bits)What I'm building now is a paint grade built-in bookcase. I'm using 3/4" MDF for the casework with two Confirmats fastening bottoms and tops to sides, which are 11". I haven't used them with melamine yet, but have a melamine cabinet to build right after this one and plan to try the same approach there. That casework is 18", I might be tempted to use three screws on each joint there. What do you mean "full access cabinetry"?

1. 
   Adrian_Wilson | Dec 21, 2000 04:16am | #3

   *I think AWI has it specced out as to how many fastners to use...every 4-5" sticks in my head;....anyway, I've used confirmats, thought about going back to them, but staple-and-screw + solid backs and false panels for the exposed gables makes a nice job too.

1. 
   Frank_"Mad_Dog"_Maglin | Dec 21, 2000 05:40am | #4

   *Jim,Full access is another term for frameless design.

1. 
   Frank_"Mad_Dog"_Maglin | Dec 21, 2000 06:01am | #5

   *Adrian, Do you recess your solid backs to allow for a scribe fit to the wall and if so , how does that work if you're useing a hang rail? The most recent set I built I used 1/2" melamine backs and attached directly to the wall with installation screws. Am considering useing some type of installation bracket next time around. What's a good system? I read in Cabinetmaker where one shop uses a full 19mm back and therefore doesn't have to stock as many thicknesses of melamine.Is the false panel for exposed gables also known as an applied panel? If so, does the front edge of that panel come flush with the front of the door/drawer? I was a bit skeptical about building my first frameless cabinets, but after experiencing all the benefits of building on system, I've been making an effort to sell my customers on it as I would hate to go back to traditional face frame cabinets. My last two customers were'nt sure about the melamine carcases at first, but they now are glad to have them. Seems like once you get one customer sold on them they refer the benefits to another, which makes it an easier sell the next time around.One more related question. My last customer wanted to install under cabinet lighting, so I milled up a light rail moulding for the bottom of the wall cabinets. What's the quickest way to attach light rail? What I did was designed my doors so that they would have a small bottom overlay which left about 12mm of cabinet bottom to attach the moulding to. I thought about making something that would attach to the underside of the box, but then thought it would take more time to make up as I would make it up of two pieces. I made up a crown moulding for the top and did it with two pieces. One piece was a flat band attached to the top of the box and then the crown attached to that.

2. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Dec 21, 2000 07:15am | #6

   *What type of staples do you use Adrian? Every time I try to shoot a nail into an MDF edge I split the material. Where could I get a copy of these AWI Standards? Are they online somewhere?

3. 
   Adrian_Wilson | Dec 21, 2000 02:08pm | #7

   *Frank; I use a solid 5/8 melamine back (or whatever material the cabinet is made out of)....it overlays the back and is stapled and screwed on (1 1/2 staples and the longest #6 particleboard screws I can get, 2" if available), so yeah, no more stocking caseback materials and the huge amount of waste you get from a 48" sheet, no dadoes, no added hanging rails to cut. You can't use the Euro suspension system for the uppers if you do it this way, but that's a choice you make. The True32 guys hate this system, but a lot of small shops do it this way; makes an extremely strong cabinet...the solid back costs a little more I suppose, but it's balanced by the reduction in waste. If you made drawers out of the same material, you end up with very little waste at the end of the job.False panel is the same as an applied end, applied gable, whatever you want to call it. In a kitchen, there are usually only a few you need to cover up the assembly methods we're talking about. Usually I try to bring them to the front face of the door, but not always.Light rail for me is just attached with 3/4" angles...nothing fancy. For crown, you should look into special crown designed for frameless cabinetry, often called 'topmount'; there is a rebate about the size of the door thickness, which allows some clearance for the door, and then the moulding profile starts from the face of the door. There is a flat section in the back of the moulding so you just nail or screw down into the cabinet....one step process this way, instead of the second piece you're adding now to land the moulding on (that's the way I did it, but I'm switching over now). Millwork shops usually stock a couple types, and hardware distributors sell them too.

4. 
   Adrian_Wilson | Dec 21, 2000 02:12pm | #8

   *AWI.net, Jim. They have a printed Quality Standards (I think), but a lot of them are on the net for download for free. Good stuff. I use 18 ga. 1 1/2" staples....not too much splitting. Try turning your gun 90 deg, so the chisel point is oriented differently, see if that helps (probably teaching an old dog to suck eggs here), and stay back from edges of course.

5. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Dec 21, 2000 04:45pm | #9

   *Thanks. Screws every 4 to 5 inches seems like overkill for 3/4" material, don't you think?

6. 
   Steve_Merrette | Dec 21, 2000 07:31pm | #10

   *Jim, are the Comfirmats the screws you sent me samples of? I can't find them anywhere around here. frustrates the hell out of me. I'm building a bed using 3/4 melamine and they would be the perfect fastener for me. I'm going to see if they have a web sight. maybe confirmat.com? even rockler and some of the other catalogs I have only seem to have bronze colored ones in one size only. any info you could pass along would be appreciated.

7. 
   Joe_Hennessey | Dec 21, 2000 08:38pm | #11

   *McFeeley calls them "connecting screws" Joe Hhttp://www.mcfeelys.com/html/euroscrews.html

8. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Dec 21, 2000 09:21pm | #12

   *Yeah, Steve, Joe has it right. I did a search yesterday with the address you asked about and came up on McFeely's web site. The hardware dealer I buy most of my stuff from sells them in a few lengths, and I think the diameters they stock are 5 and 7 mm. You might give them a call - Western Builders Supply (800-282-7792). They are in Tacoma WA, and have been a big help to me through the years. Just ask for "sales". There is a new guy on the counter I have never dealt with, but Mike, Frank and Christine have all been there several years, and really know their stuff. Geez, I forgot all about sending you those screws. They would work great in Melamine, but bite the bullet and get the drill bit (or maybe order the one Frank mentioned), it's made for that job and it works like a charm.

9. 
   Steve_Merrette | Dec 21, 2000 10:48pm | #13

   *Jim, Thanks, I went searching right after I posted that and came up with Mcfeely's as well. I will probably order the screws and drill bit tomorrow online. I also ordered a catalog. I'll keep your supply house's number though just in case. again thanks.

10. 
    Adrian_Wilson | Dec 22, 2000 04:51am | #14

    *You're probably right. I'm going by the memory of a discussion at Cabinetmakeronline. It's not in any of the AWI stuff I have (I don't have the full Quality Standards), and in the Canadian version, AWMAC, the cloeset it comes to defining a pattern is a line drawing of a base cabinet....it shows three confirmats over the c. 24" of a base cabinet, and two in each of the stretchers (like in a sink cabinet) at the top of the cabinet (so four in total at the top). Not really carved in stone. I think AWI and WIC (California) defines it more specifically.

11. 
    Woodrow_ | Dec 22, 2000 05:20am | #15

    *I have used pocket holes for attaching light rails to the bottom of frameless cabinets. Another use for the KREG JIG. Jim

12. 
    Frank_"Mad_Dog"_Maglin | Dec 22, 2000 04:37pm | #16

    *Jim, do you drill your pocket holes in the moulding or on the bottom of the case?

13. 
    Woodrow_ | Dec 24, 2000 09:39pm | #17

    *In the moulding. Jim

2. 
   jim_"crazy_legs"_blodg | Dec 24, 2000 09:39pm | #18

   *
   I started using these screws recently for MDF casework, and I think they're great. The stepped bit is expensive, but well worth the investment. I notice McFeely's sells either Confirmat, or screws that are very similar. Anyone have any experiences with this type of screw they are willing to share? Thanks - Jim