I have a leaking 80 gallon Aqua Swirl water heater that has ports out of the side that feed a recirculating pump that supplies hot water to the HVAC for heat.
I have a home warranty that has sent someone out to replace it. They are telling me it is a big deal to find one of these and are pushing a Takamichi tankless TK3. The TK3 is online for 780.00 but want to sell me one installed for 2600. The right sized gas line and water line is already in place and the vent needs to be about six feet long.
I am lost on this subject. I have a wife and four kids so we do take six showers at night. Is the tankless the way to go, are the large tanks that big of a deal? Is that price out of line? I regularly install 40 gallon water heaters for people and usually charge between 650 and 950 depending on where they are. I still need some guidance here.
Will anyone help?
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Replies
http://www.takagi.com/download/product_manuals/T-K3.pdf is a link to the handbook for the unit your talking about. Around page 38 gives an idea of a heating/domestic hot water system. This should give you some insight. As long as your system has always had potable water in it you should be ok.
Another thing that is bothering me about this type of system is the stale water in the radiator being returned to the potable water of the house. Is this a valid concern??
Yes, it is a bad idea. Does the Aquaswirl have a seperate coil inside it for the rads?
I do not know but now that you mention it, that would probably be likely that it does isolate the water for the heater, hence the name AquaSwirl.
Kinda makes sense. The company that made the setup surely thought of that? With the Takagi, I would not have the heater water isolated.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
I am still in the dark, will the tankless work and do the job as needed or do I need a tanked one and if so, does it isolate the heater water?Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
Well I know know the size of the house, the heating load, the water temp needed for the water, etc.But there are 2 things to look at. First is the domestic water demand. You need to look at the max flow rate of hot water that you need, ie how many showers/washers being used at ONE TIME, then the what the winter water tempature is. From the charts for the WH that will tell you if it can supply the instaneous demand.Then you need to look house heating demand. Then look at the amount of heat that the unit can produce after supplying domestic HW.The tankless typically have 175-225 kbtu burners so that most likely it can supply the house heating load unless it is a very big and/or old uninsulated house.But you need controls that give priority to domestic HW. They shut down the house heating when large amounts of HW are being used..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
The heating system is best to have its own water to heat the house with. Easy for the potable water to become "nasty" when pumped around a system.
With 6 in the house water changes are often. But I would be concerned too.
What is the present setup?
That is done.But some codes and many people recomend that heat exchanger we used to isolate the system.FHB or Journal of Light Construction had an article on such a system about 1-3 years ago..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I find it hard to believe that such a service would recommend replacing a tank with tankless. Tankless setups must be carefully planned and sized, and it sounds like they're coming in with guns blazing.
Double check the existing. Stagnate water in the heating coil during the off season presents a potential problem I think. When you fire up the heating that stagnated water goes back into the tank. The code may not allow that, either. It probably has a HX in it. Check with the BO, too, maybe ... what will he require?
The instant water heater won't address the issue, it sounds like. And provides little if any benefit. Make him replace w/ similar. Bradford White and several other mfgs offer water heaters w/ heat exchangers built in for your application.
Sounds like the installer is trying to cut corners ... although not sure what corners they might be as the tankless is expensive ... 'course so is a tank style w/ a HX in it.
Make him install a reasonable replacement for what you already have and make sure he gets a permit and approval/inspections.
Could you double-check the exact spelling of "Aqua Swirl" and look on the nameplate for the manufacturer? It would help if we could locate some online info on this unit.
The Apollo company is from Ashland city, TN. That is the Maker. I say, I want the tank one and he is deaf and only hears that he is going with the tankless. This is starting to be a bad dream. The house was completed in 1996, it is three levels, walkout basement with three bedrooms and two baths is included in the 4,500 square feet.
I think that the middle level which is 2,300 square feet is the only area heated with this thing. The other two units each carry a floor.
The basement heat rises to help the second floor and the third floor probably could get by with no heat.I see on Lowes.com that they do have a 75 gallon with top and side ports. Does this mean that it has a heat exchanger?Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
re: Lowe's water heater ... probably has a HX ... but the literature should tell you ... or the installers manual will likely have a diagram that should clearly answer your question. Don't bet on the hired help knowing ... they may ... but often have no clue.
What is the heat for the bottom and top floor? Didn't get your explanation.
The top floor has electric central heat and the bottom floor has a central LP furniss.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
You may want to look at this report on how combined systems can be done without the heat exchanger.http://www.radiantsolar.com/pdf/CombinedHeatingSystem.pdf.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ashland is the headquarters for AO Smith Water Products and the Reliance WH plant."The largest manufacturing operation in Ashland City is State Industries, (State Water Heaters) a division of A.O. Smith WPC, which fabricates A.O. Smith, State Industries, Reliance, Maytag, and Apollo water heaters."http://www.aosmith.com/prod/wpc.htmYou might want to look at a Vertex WH.http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/gas.htmlDon't know if any othem have an HX or not.I doubt that the WH at Lowes has a builtin HX. That is more of a specialized prouduct for Lowes to handle..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I doubt that your current unit has a built-in heat exchanger. IIRC, names like "AquaSwirl" are used for heaters where the dip tube has a twist at the bottom, designed to keep sediment from settling out.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Unfortunately, apollohydroheat.com refuses connections.But it's apparently a subsidiary of A.O.Smith.
It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
Off the cuff, it sounds like you're dealing with a 'maintenance guy' and not a real plumber.
Using one heater for both HVAC and potable water is an iffy thing at best .... I think you're looking at TWO tankless heaters, not just one. You might also have to add an expansion tank, and perhaps other components.
In any event, what the guy proposes is a basic design change - and requires some more thought than just swapping things out. For all we know, your electrical or gas service may not be large enough for two tankless heaters.
Forgot about the expansion tank ... is there one in the OP's install?
I used one storage tank for my combined system ... tank had a HX in it and then I added the pumps, expansion tank, etc. to it.
I am thinking a tankless for the homes water and maybe a small one for the furniss? I am bad confused now.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
tankless won't do you much for the domestic hot water and you still have another system to deal with. Combining like you have ain't a bad idea. Using one system rather than replacing two will be cheaper and probablyserve you better ... but there are still lots of details I don't know about your situation.
If you use domestic hot water regularly, the instant water heater buys you very little and as many pointed out the demand (e.g. wire size, breaker, gas pipe size, etc) is large and the equipment cost may be high relative to the alternative ... replacing what you got.
I checked it out today, it is an Apollo Hydra Swirl and it does not have a separate heat exchanger. To accomodate the heater it has side ports, one going and one returning. I was worried about the stale water mixing but have decided that I will just have to get over it. I have found several 75 gallon heaters that will do the job so I may just go with one of those. I wanted an on demand heater but I can not see how it would work well with the heater. Think about this, every time the heater needed heat, that thing would blast off, it might get to not be full blast if hot water is incoming but I don;t know.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
The old one may not have met code and you got away with it. I'd double check w/ the building dept. The repair/replacement should fully meet current codes.
One reason not to get a tankless is your kids. Once they discover they can take endless hot showers they will.
I would also post your Q at http://www.heatinghelp.com
You may also find a pro in your area on that site, who can help you.
I hate home warranty outfits. Seems to me they should replace like with like, too bad its hard to get.
Regarding the stale water. It had been determined that the organism that causes legioneers disease (IIRC) thrives in that environment (cooling season).
During the heating season it is a non issue as the water gets recirculated and heated to a level that it will not live.
The solution when I was involved in using hydro heat, like aqua therm, several years ago (mid '90) was to install a small pump in the heater loop that would kick on for a minute or two a few time a day during the cooling season. This would flush out the piping and coil and maintain safe water in the system.
If your system does not have a small pump in the loop you should install one.
Some of heating coils we used came from Apollo and some from First Company. The systems were installed in multifamily developments in Denver and Baltimore and vicinities.
I'll see if I can find a link to a pump.
Edit
http://www.firstco.com/firstcoimages/pdf/IAM995.pdf
Here are First Co's Installation instructions. I now remember that the pump is an vital part of the system. We added a simple timer to make the pump come on during the cooling season to periodically "flush" the water out of the heating coil into the main tank.
Also a two port heater will work as shown in the instructions
TFB (Bill)
Edited 6/28/2008 6:34 pm by ToolFreakBlue
This is an Apollo system, it does have a circulating pump but I do not know if it is on a timer. Was is standard that it be on a timer. I would think they would have thought of this as well.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
Edited 6/28/2008 8:29 pm ET by handymanvan
The timer was an added device. I don't recall if it came from system vendor or we got it from the duct and ac supply vendor, sorry. Seems like they were a $30 item in '95.TFB (Bill)