I have a cousin who works in a NewYork state smalltown townhall.
Her question is what is the diff between a professional engineer and a registered architect.
She needs to fill out a zoning form that says it must be stamped by a professional engineer.
The plans they have now are stamped by a registered architect.
The zoning officer says both are the same thing. Her concerns are possibly creating a loop hole if for any reason problems arise that requires the courts.
She’ll be reading this from her home in NewYork.
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Replies
One has completed a course of study in engineering and received certification from the State Board of Engineers, while the other has studied architecture and become NCARB certified under the State Board of Architects. That's the obvious answer.
Each state typically has laws regarding what can be signed by an archy, vs what needs to be signed by an engineer. Here in NJ, the archys lobbied hard to make sure that they had first dibs on anything considered a "building" project, while the engineers get the "industrial" "heavy highway", etc. On building projects, the engineers may seal the mechanical, structural, etc., but the architectural stuff usually gets signed by an architect.
It depends on what the project is, and what the AHJ is going to be willing to accept. I'd start with a phonecall to whoever will approve the plans, rather than relying on info from here.
Bob
Hi
I'm Razman's cousin, Katie. The Zoning Board has to approve the application, but the Zoning Officer also has input. This is for a co-location of a cell tower. It comes back to the dependability of the tower.
They are proposing to add nine more attennas to the tower. Do you think it would be the engineer that would decide if the tower is strucurally sound?
The architect as the designer wouldn't have the sayso in this situation?
Thank you.
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Edited 4/19/2005 12:19 pm ET by the razzman
They are proposing to add nine more attennas to the tower. Do you think it would be the engineer that would decide if the tower is strucurally sound?
Absolutely.
The architect as the designer wouldn't have the sayso in this situation?
No.
As an architect type (though I am north a' the border) I would definitely get a structural engineer to review and stamp the drawings. The day to day reality of an architect's prof. life is that they do know a lot about each of the building systems and how they work together but they still need to depend on the specific expertise of other professionals. There is a lot of accumulated knowledge in the mind of an engineer about material properties (like of steel), structural geometries, orientation, wind loads on the tower, any new info on tie-downs, connection details. Architects just aren't thinking about these things on a daily basis, the numbers I mean.
Anything that requires engineering requires an engineer. That's my motto. Live light enough to see the humour and long enough to see change.
-Ani DiFranco
> They are proposing to add nine more attennas to the tower.
What you need is an engineer with experience in communications towers. Towers are a very strange and extreme engineering environment where even a coat of paint can be a significant load. An engineer whose experience is in houses, let alone an architect, should know better than to mess with them.
Here's the tower trade association, maybe they can point you to an engineer.
http://www.natehome.com/ContactNATE.cfm
-- J.S.
Signing off on a communications tower is definitely the responsibility of a structural engineer with expertise in such matters. Besides the added weight of the antennas, there will be the added weight of the antenna cables as well as increased wind loads.
I'm an electrical engineer, I mainly do design work on municipal water supply systems. However, I've been involved with a number of cellphone antenna installations, since the cellphone people love municipal water towers (they're a nice, tall place where they can mount their antennas without having to build a tower.)
In every project I've been associated with, the cellphone company has had their own engineers on staff or have hired an firm that specializes in this sort of work. I'd think whatever cellphone company you're dealing with should be responsible for determining if the tower will handle the additional antennas.
My cous is the secretary for the zonibg board and the planning board.
The planning boards recommendation is to decide the diff between the two as their only concern.The zoning board has the same concern.
The planning board has x number of days to send the recommendations back to the zoning board. Then the ZB has30days to hold a hearing to approve or disapprove.
So they need to know if they can fully accept the reg archy's stamp. The chairman of the ZB is concerned over the zoning officer's ok that both are the same.
Who is the next guy up the line with the sayso on this matter above the zoning officer and the chairman?
Would it be the zoning board itself with the majority vote?
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
this question should be addressed as a matter of course to the Town SolicitorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That would be the Town Board.
Small town politics can be so ...eh...interesting.
Apparently the Townboard wants nothing to do with it.
She is going to address this thread later at her home.
Thanks
be a zoned zoner
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
IMHO, the structural integrity of a cell tower is entirely the domain of an engineer- not an architect.
Yeah, that's the whole controversy in the first place.
Seems obvious that an engineer would be over an archy in this situation hence the questioning of the zoning officer's OK on the archy's stamp in the first place.
More to follow later.
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
Edited 4/19/2005 2:04 pm ET by the razzman
"Town Solicitor"That is the town's lawyer. If it is a small city probably a local attorny that they have on retainer.Here is the state office that handles registration. You could ask them.http://www.op.nysed.gov/proflist.htmAnd here is the state society of PE.http://www.nysspe.org/But the question is where did this form come from?Basically I would say is that if the form requires a PE then that is what is needed. The boards & council can often wave requirements, but not the zoning office.
Hi
This is razman's cousin. I really appreciate all of the input. Thanks for the web page addresses. This is getting crazy. Nobody wants the responsibility so they dump on the secretary, Attorney included. I am suppose to come up with a defintion for both the PE and the RA. Great! I will check out the sites you suggested.
Thanks
katie
Here's some links that may be useful.
New York State chapter of the Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE). http://www.nysspe.org/government.shtml
New York State chapter of the American Institute of Architects (AIA). http://www.aiany.org/
New York Office of the Professions definition of the Practice of Engineering. http://www.op.nysed.gov/article145.htm
New York Office of the Professions definition of the Practice of Architecture. http://www.op.nysed.gov/article147.htm
When do you need an engineer? from http://www.op.nysed.gov/pebroch.htm.
When must I employ a licensed PE?
Generally, you will need the services of a licensed design professional such as a PE any time you need the approval of a government agency or official for a construction project; these officials can only accept engineering plans signed and stamped with the seal of the PE. Check with that official to determine what you are required to submit. You will also need a PE when the complexity of the design of a project requires the skills of a professional engineer or when the services fall within the legal definition of professional engineering.
When do you use an architect? from http://www.op.nysed.gov/archbroch.htm.
When would I use the services of an architect?
You might retain an architect when you are considering such things as the following:
a house purchase - an architect can evaluate the house's structure and mechanical systems
building a new home
developing a piece of land
Architects design all types of buildings - the actual structure, the interiors, and the land around them.
Edited 4/20/2005 7:43 pm ET by Stuart
Edited 4/20/2005 7:44 pm ET by Stuart
Hi
This will set me in the right direction. I think that maybe the Zoning Board can find what they are looking for here. I really appreciate the help, I'm getting frustrated with this. I'm just the secretary.
Thank you
Katie
Because all this varies so much in so many places, here is the simple solution for you ( and I have ten years on a local planning board doing this) - dump it back on the applicant to prove credibility and qualifications.Since an architect stamped the plans, send him a letter stating briefly that re such and such plans, the board has concerns about the styructural intergrity of the design, and state ( don't ask - state as a matter of fact) that for the aplication to proceed, they require evidence that his training and licensure qualify him to certify the engineering specifications of that design. Close by saying that you would appreciate his reply by such and such a date and thank you very much for you rco-operation.if he fails o reply, the application goes no further for lach of required information - incomplete application.if he pe;ies in the affirmative, he has just bought all the liability.
A Licensed archy has taken some engineering courses, supposedly enough to know when he is in over his head and needs to hire a specialist and which specialist to hire. His stamp indicates to me that he has done so. A letter of confirmation from him would further add certification to the folder and the board via you would have done due diligence.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Legally in N.Y. an architect can stamp and approve that plan. As an architect in N.Y.S I would not touch it. For all practical purposes an engineer should be involved in this project. It's possible the architect involved had an engineer as a consultant on this project and is comfortable stamping and assuming responsibility for this project.
So legally in N.Y. it's ok .
As an EE I often work as a subconsultant on construction projects - depending on the situation, the architect is sometimes the lead, and sometimes it's the civil engineer. Whoever the lead person is will sign the cover sheet of the plan set, along with any other drawings they were personally responsible for, but the rest of us (mechanical, electrical, structural, and any others involved) are responsible for signing our respective drawings. I can't speak with authority on how they do it in New York but I suspect it's similar.
I have seen complete sets of plans covered by an architects seals although some of the plans were prepared by other professions. I prefer the individual professions stamp their own respective work.
I know other states specifically spell out what an architect or engineer can place their stamp on, but in N.Y. there is some crossover.
Actually you don't need to come up with a definition.If the form says that it requires an PE then it it requires a NY register PE.You function is only administrative. You really should not have any option on this.Now the voting boards and councils can make whatever decision that they want. But really your only "authority" is to take what it says at face value and then pass it on to the board to make their decision.BTW, where did this form come from? Is it something that the city drew up or from the state or ?
the 'form' can say anything it wants to say, but if it is not backed up by law, then it isn't worth the paper it is printed on. For instance, if a NYS statute state somewhere is title so and so, paragraph whatever, line ninety seven ####that any licensed architect ...practicing may undertake to assume authorty and discretion for any and all sub-licensures such as engineering and use his stamp to cover that area of expertise, then the archies stamp is just as valid as the form required engineer's stamp. I tend to doubt the validity of the form requirement simply because it is or sounds to be, terribly insufficient in defining what exact kind of engineer they are requiring to stamp this plan. I'd hate to think they would accept an electrical engineer's certification over an architect'sOh what a tangled web we weave, when first we license to decieve, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That is why I asked where the form came from.But again, on the face of it, it is a something for the administrive staff to make.That is what the boards are far. Either the submittal meets the requiremnts or not. The party can appeal to the board that the requirments are wrong or not applicable.
Hi
The Town's Zoning Doc. says that there must be set of plans stamped by a Professional Engineer. Now the conflict is that the Zoning Officer says that the Arch's stamp is the same and it can be either or. The Zoning Chairman says he wants to know the difference between the two before a hearing can be set, as far as he's concerned, he can't set a hearing date until he knows the difference. I guess to cover the Zoning Board if for some reason this goes to court later, they want to know for sure the definition(s).
Thank you
Katie
Interesting dynamics between the zoning board and the zoning office.And they want the secretary to play Supreme Court <G>."The Zoning Chairman says he wants to know the difference between the two before a hearing can be set, as far as he's concerned, he can't set a hearing date until he knows the difference."OK, that makes it alot simplier for you. You don't need to make any decisions, just give them the facts.The only "facts" in this case are what NY State gives as the right, responsibility, and authority of the two professions.That office for professional registration should have that. Don't know if you can find it on the web site or not.But a call to that office should give you the information. They might have some easy to read "comsumer guide" type of info, but if not ask them to point you go the appropriate law enables registration for PE and Arch's. Then print that out and give it to the Board Chariman.
Thanks for all of the info. I'll check it out
Thank you
OK katie.
Now let's get on with those windmill power generators they are talking about.
Golden Wrecked Angle should have a bit to say on that subject. :o)
A new thread in General Discussion should do it.Could you begin by presenting how the idea first came to the board?
sobriety is the root cause of dementia.
> The Zoning Chairman says he wants to know the difference between the two....
So the problem is to explain it in terms that a Chairman can understand:
An Architect designs a building to be beautiful, comfortable, and convenient to use.
An Engineer takes the design that the architect provides, and adds to it a lot of details that the Contractor will need to know in order to actually build it. S/he may also change things a little to make it more practical and economical to build. It is the Engineer who takes responsibility for designing it in such a way that the building will be very unlikely to fall down and kill people.
-- J.S.
That could define the basic differences between professions.
But in different states architects are allowed to cover what may be defined as part of an engineers scope of work. Some states would not allow an architect to cover that tower design.
I have designed many buildings that have not killed anyone, there are other ones where we prefer to use the experience of an engineer. If an engineer is used in N.Y. on those buildings an architects stamp is still accepted on the plans.
Edited 4/22/2005 3:34 pm ET by arrowpov
> But in different states architects are allowed to cover what may be defined as part of an engineers scope of work.
True, but that's a subtle nuance beyond what we can hope that a Chairman could understand. ;-)
These are boom times in the tower business. With the high definition TV build-out, there are far more people building big towers than ever before. Crews that used to do 60 - 100 ft. cell phone towers are building towers in the 1000 - 2049 foot range. There was a crew that tried to raise the antenna on the same gin pole that they used to build the tower. The U-bolts snapped, dropped the antenna onto a guy wire, killed three men, and dropped the whole tower to the ground.
-- J.S.
The chairman should make the determination on what they want to accept. I suspect the architect may be digging in his heels as he feels he is allowed to present and cover his plan.
So the problem is to explain it in terms that a Chairman can understand:
That's the "trick" of it, isn't it?
Locally, all "wireless transmission facilities" (gee, I think they've been through the cell tower wringer <G>) have their own section of code.
In certain zoning, the ground level gear must comport to neighborhood standards for screening & the like. In that case, the preference is to have an architect, who makes it "pretty," who, separately, hires an engineer to make it stand up.
For rural zoning, an engineer may solely stamp the drawings--but he will be held to the same standards as an architect for ensuring it looks pretty. Thus, the preference would be that the engineer separately hires an architect.
Either way, there's the one licensed professional "of record" for that one project. Any other professional used, will have marked their own work as state licensing and liability insurance requires.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Hey
Just spoke with the Zoning Chairman, he said that he spoke with the Town Atty. and he suggests that the plans to be stamped by a PE. I believe because it says specifically in the Town's Zoning Doc that it needs to be stamped by a PE. I have gone to the web sites suggested from many of you and I msut say it's been a great deal of help. I told the Zoning Chairman about this and he is very pleased with what I've told him. Thank you guys very much.
Now I'm on to the trail of looking for some zoning references for Wind Energy Turbines. We need to compile a law for our doc. We have one started but it still needs other things added.
Thanks again
Katie
Here's another link that says it with pictures:
http://www.oldradio.com/archives/warstories/index.html#Towers%20Down!
It doesn't include some of the bigger and more recent ones from TV, these are mostly radio.
Click on the "Tower Tragedies" blue rectangle near the top center, then on individual links in the list.
-- J.S.
Edited 4/22/2005 9:02 pm ET by JOHN_SPRUNG
Hi
This kind of shows what the Zoning Chairman wants to assured that the towers are safe structurally. He feels that they better have all of their stuff together before any permit will be issued and right now He and both boards are not satisfied.
Thanks for the input
Given that, he should aask the town or his board's attorneuy for the proper definitions. That atty will know whether an archy exceeds his authority or if his stamp legally qualifies as an engineers stamp in your state.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi
The Town Atty. said that it should be stamped by a PE. In his opinion, if it says in the Town's zoning Doc., PE then that's what it should be.
Katie
May as well check out this site also while you're at it.
The National Society of Professional Engineers (those who've got the requisite education, passed the Fundamentals of Engineering exam - aka the "EIT" and became an Engineer in Training, then - typically - worked in their line of engineering for 5 years, then sat for and PASSED the Professional Engineering exam for their chosen engineering discipline...WHEW...that's about what it takes to become a designated PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER with the associated STAMP to put on documents) Anyway, I'm linking in the URL here, you to the ethics portion of the NSPE website because of a comment somebody made above.
Not all tower designs are going to be well known by every structural engineer who has attained a PE. However, all PEs know to protect themselves (the liability issue when they place their STAMP on a document) by practicing only within their area of expertise.
Practicing ONLY in one's area of expertise is one of the Fundamental Canon's of the Code of Engineering Ethics. Click on that portion of the website when you open the link below:
http://www.nspe.org/ethics/codeofethics2003.pdf
Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
Hi
Thanks for the website, I need all of the help I can get on this. I really apreciate it. I guess one thing by the time I am done with this I will have a better understanding on the subject and I'll know what they are talking about.
Katie
"One has completed a course of study in engineering and received certification from the State Board of Engineers, "
Usually, but not always.
A PE is licensed by a state, through that state's board of registration. For every state I've looked at for Civil PEs, they require a certain amount of experience, 8 or 10 years for instance, and having passed two national tests: the Fundamentals of Engineering test (same test for all discipline) and the Principles and Practice of Engineering test in one's own discipline.
Years of experience usually includes 4 years credit for a bachelor's degree (if in the same branch of engineering and from a ABET accredited school) plus 4 (or more) years of pratical experience. But one might get only 2 years credit if from an unaccreditted school or in a different major or if a degree was never completed. The reminder would be practical experience working under an already licensed PE. Education could be 0 years if one never went to college. Then all the experience time would be from practical experience.
Additionally, some states require additional tests or training. Alaska requires an Arctic Engineering course. California has their own 4-hour tests in Surveying and in Seismic that are required for a Civil PE.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
This is California Laws:
STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS may design any building of any type.
*********
CIVIL ENGINEERS may design any building of any type EXCEPT public schools and hospitals.
********
ARCHITECTS may design any building of any type EXCEPT the structural portion of a hospital.
*********
UNLICENSED INDIVIDUALS may design only the following tipes of buildings:
SFD of woodframe construction not more than two stories and basement in height.
MDU comtaining not more than four dwellings described above of woodframe const. not more thatntwo stories...
Garages or other structure ....bla bla...bla...two story limit...
Agricultural and ranch building ...wood frame etc....two story...
Lots of stuff!
************
Occupancy factor has alot to do with who can do what. So if the local jurisdiction determins that NO undue risk to the public health, safety, or walfare is involved, Go for it.
Regarding the question if an architect can stamp the plan, PROBABLY, if not the structural portion of a hospital. But if there is any sort of complexity involved, I'd go with a Civil or Structural Engineer.
I might be slightly biased though,
A Civil Enginer
They are both part of the same mafia, so I dont see what the problem is, especially if your in the northeast
what does uncle vinny say
yes they both pay dearly for their education and their titles
so did I , school of experience and hard knocks
and try to incroach on the titles if you are not an architect or engineer, youll be in court or "sleepin wit da fishies"
for example, a home designer can not say architectural drawings, or even say nice architecturual appeal, they can not say archi anything, thatnks to clout, unions or MAFIA
and as a desinger, in my area, an architect has equal clout as an enigineer on many many many projects
sadly, lastly, around here things have changed thanks to budget cuts
and everyone is trying to cover their butts
you used to be able to turn in a perscriptive set of plans ( meaning meets the code books rules) but now they want more engineering and stuff
I think its so they can get slack on their job as a permitting authoirty and if the place falls down go
but......but ..but........she/he signed it off
so whats the problem
( sorry not a good day today, bad attitude)
About $50K/year
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
What bigdog says.Here in Calif, building and saftey generally want to see what they call "wet stamped" plans, e.g., signed by a structural engineer for liability reasons. An architect is not an engineer.Regards,
Boris"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934