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We recently took on project where the project architect designed roof system. When we went to build it nothing fit as per the plan. All the demensions were materialy off. Thus causing a large change order due to increased labor in order to make it fit. The architect’s reply when confronted” I drew the plan the way I wanted it to look,you guys have to make it work” Instead of a week to frame it took three weeks. The architect was not much help. Now the client is concerned over the extra costs.
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Good Morning
Essentially the Architect is correct in his role, unless stated otherwise in his contract to the client or you.
If you hired the Architect, then the extra's would be argued with him.
If the client hired the Architect, then he would have to argue with him.
Assuming that the client bought the plans from the Architect and then hired you to build the house, as per the plans and specifications, DEPENDING on the wording of the contract, the client would be responsible for the extra's to you and he would have to try and recover the added costs from the Architect.
IF your contract with the Client states that you are responsible for ensuring, prior to commencement, the accuracy of the plans and specifications, then you would be out of luck.
If you don't have a proper contract and can't prove Quantum Merit then you're really out of luck and out of pocket, unless the client is generous.
Sorry I can't be of more help
Gabe
*Been there. Part of contracting is risk. If you don't notice something in the plans(glaring deficiencies), shame on you. If the problem is with details which are not correct shame on the architect. Was it a truss or stick frame? Please give us more details.
*Van Angelo,
Joseph FuscoView Image
*I see a lot of problems here.1. Any major irregularities in the plans should have been discovered at the bid level. I have often questioned plans and details that were wrong. If you bid it you should have anticipated the problem.2. Since there was a change order, presumably signed by the owner and hopefully giving the price for the changes, you should be off the hook. A signed change order should entitle you to get paid.3. There should have been a clause in the specifications stating that any changes would have to be approved by the architect. If these were not run by him first, then he may be off the hook, too, but may not if his details were unbuildable. 4. The architect's attitude is clearly irresponsible. "I drew the plan the way I wanted it to look,you guys have to make it work" is no excuse. The architect's job is to make things work not just look. Your job is to build not design. That's why he's getting paid the big bucks. He's going to have a hard time convincing an arbitrator that he's not responsible when he has that attitude, especially if he signed the working drawings. Presumably there is an arbitration agreement in his contract with the client. 5. This should never have gotten this far without these issues being resolved.
*Van Angelo,
Joseph FuscoView Image
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Always assume that anything an architect has drawn is wrong.
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I hate to architect bash, and I have a LOT of respect for some of them, but does anyone remember an article a while back in FH by an architect who couldn't get his drawings approved for a building permit? Told him he needed an engineer's stamp, because architects don't know how to build anymore (which is obviously a stupid generalisation, but with a kernel of truth). You can't trust someone else's drawings, period. Whether it's a math problem, or trusting too much in CAD programs (which I use, but they aren't foolproof, as I learned the hard way), these things have to be addressed before or as part of your bid, or it seems to me you are on the hook for part of it. I've never trusted architects drawings for the nitty gritty since trying to build a model from drawings and finding the architect had three different scales going on at the same time.
*Architects making mistakes? What will be next...Lumber deliveries coming late? I am in utter disbelief.Seems to me that I find so many discrepencies with plans while in the bid process that I should go into business as a "plan proof reader". (i'd probably make more money..cuz i couldn't make any less)From the sounds of this situation it seems as though you built the place as shown on the plans while at the same time having the truss manufacturer put together trusses and when you came to install them they didn't fit. Is that about right? I guess it's easy to give advice on what you should have done and I suppose it's almost reasonable to assume that something being as large a portion of a project as the roof should be drawn correctly but it's kinda late for all that jazz.I suppose it all boils down to who will accept the blame and how your contract was written. The architect most certainly must have insurance and bonding for just this sort of situation and if need be, you may wish to file suit to recover your loss for his/her mistake.I wish I knew more of the exact details on what problems you encountered that made this situation unworkable...it would help me figure on who the blame should really shift too. Worst case scenario is......you eat the extra work and learn a very very valuable lesson.Better you than me,Pete Draganic
*May I offer a suggestion from a lawyer's point of view? While I'm not entirely clear how much of a financial mess this creates, you, the architect and the homeowner should sit down and have a nice, calm chat about the fact that there is enough fault to go around and enough ambiguity because of the division of fault that litigating the responsibility would place a second, perhaps even worse, burden on everyone involved.Rather than you eat the cost alone, or demand that the architect (or homeowner for that matter) do so, agree that an error was made by the architect in the plans, that you might have caught the error but didn't and that the homeowner is the one who will foot the cost, in terms of delay, misery and legal expense, should the issue be litigated.Instead, spread the pain amongst the three of you, leaving no one happy but also no one devastated, and maintain a better, and wiser, relationship. This accomplishes far more than litigating, and eases the pain of any one party footing the entire cost of the error. And truth be told, there probably is plenty of blame to go around.SHG
*I'm sorry - but I have yet to see anything the owner did to warrant his paying for ANY of this. If he bought the plans, he claims against the architect. If the builder bought the plans, he claims against the architect."We all should share some burden" doesn't hold much water here when the homeowner certainly didn't share responsibility in the creation of the error.-Rob
*Rob,"I'm sorry - but I have yet to see anything the owner did to warrant his paying for ANY of this."He signed the change order presumably agreeing to pay.
*I have to agree with Rob on this. The owner has no control over how the plans are drawn or how you build them. Mistakes happen on the best of prints,it's the builders job to take two dimensional drawings, interpet them and build a three dimensional structure.That's why we get the prints in advance study them and give an estimate of costs and time to completion.So I guess I'm saying it's really on you to question the architect before you build.Vince P.S. I don't see anything in the orginal post about the owner signing a change order.
*Anything - other then his general ignorance.-Rob
*Hi FellasStrange how a 75 word paragraph conjures up all sorts of scenerios regarding a dispute on a typical jobsite.The most common lines, most of you have seen on Architectural drawings, are "Not responsible for any errors and/or omissions" and "Not to Scale" and finally, "Contractor to verify measurements on site, prior to commencement".In most litigations the owner is save from responsibility for errors in design due to his/her limited knowledge of the industry.The contractor, on the other hand is expected to be aware of all these little pitfalls. Not a pleasant situation to be in, when things go wrong.There was no change order to be claimed. Changes in the work is one thing, delays as a result of misinformation is another thing altogether.The owner should be concerned, he doesn't understand the industry querks and is unsure of the remedy.All of these discussions are academic. We can't see or judge the seriousness of the error. We can't see the drawings or the contracts.All of this would cost more in court to resolve than the value of the extra effort in doing the roof.If there is a lesson here, it's remembering that the old saying "measure twice, cut once" also applies to checking drawings and specs, prior to starting the job.Gabe
*Remember that it's not a perfect world. While fault lies initially with the architect and secondarily for the contractor, the party who will suffer most from a dispute is the homeowner. Yes, he is the one without fault (what did he know, he thought he hired professionals), but as Gabe correctly states, the costs of litigation in construction matters often exceeds the outcome, when factoring in the delay and aggravation with the money.Nice to see so many contractors willing to have a brother shoulder the weight, but what if you were in his shoes, trusted the plans and ended up on the short end of a truss? Would you be so willing to eat the cost?SHG
*In my opinion the builder should have gone over his plans. Before iI sart any job I usually know every dimension on the plans as a result of doing my own lumber takeoffs and pricing it out for all the componenents. If I were in this situation I would make the roof work to save my reputation and keep my homeowner satisfied. I dont do any advertising and count on word of mouth for my sales, something like this could hurt. I say learn from it and go on. Talk to the architect and see if he is concerned about his reputation, he may want to help with the additional cost.
*That would be my approach exactly.
*Plans are two dimensional abstracts of an object and should never be considered a foolproof recipe for construction. Although this situation seems like a particulary grave error, it is virtually impossible, if not totally impractical to conceive a perfect plan for a custom home without letting a mistake slip by. A builder should never place his knowledge and experience to the back seat of an architect. Consider the plans only for what they are: a well conceived, efficient package of many hundreds of hours of thought and detail, placed on a few sheets of vellum. That's a wonderful tool to have in your hands, but it is not infallible.
*I would appreciate knowing what you use as a CAD program.Dennis
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Joseph Fusco View Image
*Actually, I was asking which particular CAD program you prefer. ]Thanks,Dennis
*I have learned the architect lesson the hard way -by losing money over incorrect plans. Now when I bid I put more money in to cover the cost of mistakes in the prints. I lose jobs because of this and owners lose money. I have found that nothing turns a job sour quicker than charging for architect mistakes.(besides not getting paid) One problem I see over and over are careless mistakes in the plans. One page will say one thing and another will be different. For example a reflected ceiling plan's heights not being the same as the ceiling heights called out in the detail box. On one house the center of one gable was in different places on three diffent pages(roof plan, side elevation and a dotted line on the floor plan). Now I spend 2-3 hrs checking, correcting and determining wall heights on tough homes with the architect. It is time well spent. It saves both of us hours of time later.
* Dennis,
*...in fact, as soon as I see the problem develop, I go to the architect, not the homeowner. I try to solve it without the owner ever knowing about it. Keep it between professionals. - yb
*You should be rich Bob. What a professional.
*Alright...Poor architects. Let's all try this. Take a look at your house...a good look. Just for fun, pretend that you want to add an 1000 square foot accessible addition because a member of your family has had a stroke and is going require wheelchair acess. Here are the necessary things to consider. Light, existing windows and underpinning the foundation(existing), drainage, aesthetics, and obviously function. Make a list of all the drawings and details necessary for obtaining a permit in any modern city. Start drawing, and I'll see you in 2 weeks to see how you did. We all look at thousands of plans throughout our careers as builders. If you think you can do better...that is exactly what you should be doing. We are all very quick to criticise until we actually try to do it. It looks easy...but it aint. Try to imagine trying to keep to a schedule on top of keep all the details straight in your head, and all without ever having actually built anything.(sweeping generalization, sorry) Think about how we get burned up inside when someone makes the statement, "Any Jerk can Frame", or "How Much? my brother in law can do it cheaper". As architects should really spend a year or two on a construction site working with their hands...so too should carpenters attempt to draw their own house plans if for no other reason than to gain a respect for each other.
*Lawrence ok I agree and I do work for some really great architechs. But like the saying goes" it only takes one bad apple to spoil the lot" It's the same in the building trades. As far as design work I went back to school and learned. Bought a cad went back to school and learned. When I need a plan I draw it. When a architect wants to learn most of them build a model. Few now adays will take the time to learn how a building goes together. What will hold it together over time and what changing one thing will do to the whole building. The worst are ones who want a feel and come to the job and "channel". I spent huge amounts of time making a better product. I look at wht things fail and try not to make the same mistake. Just because I build them instead of draw them is no reason to think any less of me. When I get a call from a new architech I interview them to see if I want to get involed with them. Ok now I've vented. I mean no harm to any of you who draw them for a living. Just spent some time in the field or listan to a really good carpenter sometime. Then go back and look at your work again. Sometimes a step back let's you see the "whole" picture.We won't even start on the Engineers :)
*It sounds like the architect thinks he is an "exterior decorator" rather than an architect.He apparently wasn't qualified by experience or understanding to do the roof drawings he did and should be prevented from doing so in the future. He does not seem to have the level of care appropriate to similar professionals in your area.I'd also file a complaint with the state board.I think the owner is partially responsible too, but don't have a lot of experience in litigation, so am not sure about your case. My drawings are very accurate and well thought out, although nobody is absolutely perfect. You can have speed, price or quality. Choose any two. If the Owner chose only to get the best price and speed for his architectural services, he should not expect the best quality, and should expect to bear some responsibility for the results. If he wanted "leading edge" design features and was not willing to foot the bill to detail them properly, so that they could be built per the plans, it is also his responsibility in my humble opinion.Gary Wheeler, AIA
*Sounds to me like the architect is a jerk. Unfortunately, I've been in similar situations. The architect has always had some sort of disclaimer on his paperwork (or on the prints) that seemed to protect him. I've never heard of a case where an architect paid a dime for his own mistakes. I would also have to admit that Lawrence makes a valid point, however. Why wasn't the problem caught before the framing was started ? Granted, you can't catch b EVERY mistake. But, knowing that the architect had probably made mistakes, someone should have had their eyes open.........
*I may be re-hashing old ground, but in my new life, I'm going over a 112 page blueprint. I'm responible for 4 to 5 trades. I really don't care about their numbers as I will get 4 to 5 per my 4 to 5. I am scouring these prints for anything they might have missed in the drawings that might have cost us money had I not seen it. I don't have their numbers yet, but I am scoping the job as If I have to price it. I have found numerous questions for the architect as have the others responsible for trades. I'm in a nut shell saving your ass from an impossibly low bid.I would have been on the other side two weeks ago, butI have converted. Architects are perfect, and still lack our knowledge, but they do draw the plans we need for permits. It seems in my new job, if it is drawn, I will have it done, and if I disagree, change orders are to late. I've been on the other side and my advise is read every word on a blueprint, and ask about confusing points.
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I'm not so sure that I would be too quick to bash the architect. What if the complainant builds poorly?...no offense intended, but it would be interesting to hear what the architect had to say.
There are_________ (fill in the blank with the profession of your choice) that should never be allowed to practice, but some of these little tribunals are a bit hasty, eh?
*I too think it would be a good thing for architects to have a little field experience. I also think it wouldn't hurt us to have a little architctural experience. But as far as trusting thier numbers? No way. We once framed a house here in Dallas drawn by the students of the Frank Lloyd Wright School in Arizona. If we had built that house by the plans there would be huge gaps in the walls where they forgot to draw elevations. My feelings are that plans are somewhat concepts that we have to make 3D. We count on the architects to give us the basic idea, and they count on us to make it real. I agree with youngbob, I never tell my customers that there is something wrong with the plans. I always work it out with the architect. They learn as much from me as I do from them. It does seem a bit unfair that in some situations where the architect just flat blew it, they never offer to help with the cost to fix it. Go figure.
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We recently took on project where the project architect designed roof system. When we went to build it nothing fit as per the plan. All the demensions were materialy off. Thus causing a large change order due to increased labor in order to make it fit. The architect's reply when confronted" I drew the plan the way I wanted it to look,you guys have to make it work" Instead of a week to frame it took three weeks. The architect was not much help. Now the client is concerned over the extra costs.