I entered into a contract for “rough framing” for a house addition. Half way through the job the contractor handed me a change order for the fascia and rake boards as well as the T&G sheathing at the exposed eaves. These were clearly shown on the drawings and were not excluded from the contract. My contention is that this is part of rough framing. The contractor said that they are not considered rough framing. Who is correct?
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Replies
"Rough framing" is not normally "visible" on a finished house.
If there is a 2x "sub-fascia"...that has to be finished w/alum or a 1x board...it (the 2X sub) would be considered "rough framing".
A 1x or 5/4 X finish fascia is considered trim.
The exposed T&G sheathing should have been specifically addressed since that is not the norm. PLywood sheathing the same overhanging area would be considered part of "rough frmg"....but T & G is extra work and $$.
Just my $1.98
It's not considered rough framing, but it is work often done by the framing contractor. Your contract should have specifically included(or excluded) it, by not including it, I would say he's right for adding a change order.
Speak the truth, or make your peace some other way.
Paul,
Unfortunately it's a regional thing. I'm a framer in MA and our scope of work usually includes, fascia, soffit, rakes, cornice returns, corner boards, frieze boards, window trim, water table.... pretty much all of the exterior trim.
But I also know that it's unheard of in other parts of the country for the framer to touch that stuff.
That's why I spell it right out in my contracts. Under my 'scope of work' section is a seperate item for exterior trim where I line item what I have included in the price of the job. I have to or I'd get killed. The amount of exterior trim work on houses varies so much that I could really lose my shirt on a job if the work I priced out didn't jive with what a GC expected of me. I've spent weeks doing nothing but exterior trim on some of the houses we frame.
It sounds like the exterior trim was not covered in the contract. Did you ever discuss it verbally?
Here's my own line of thinking, but keep in mind that it's nothing more an opinion: I think it's the framer's job to have the frame ready for roofing, which is the next step in the process 99% of the time. The drip edge (that the roofers install) should lap over the fascia and rake boards. So in the very least, I think the framer should be responsible for fascia and rake. Again, just my opinion and it's regionally biased.
Paul, around here all exterior work is part of the rough frame package. That includes all the wood siding, cornice work, corner boards. and also include the setting of all exterior millwork (windows and doors).
I wouldn't pay the bill.
blue
not rough framing... part of the fit and finish...
rough is under the fit and finish...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Fascia? Window trim? Why not just have the framers trim out the inside while they're at it!
El-cheapo contractors don't want to pay a decent finish carp to put up the fascia and other exterior finish work, so they get the framers to do it, often with predictable results. No offense to the framers out there, they do wonderful things with structural wood and quasi-wood, but they aren't finish carps--interior or exterior.
Of course there are framers who do wonderful finish work, but they are in the minority.
Speak for yourself trout. I could say that most finish carps around here wouldn't even know how to get their azz up to the places I have to install trim... but I'm not that ignorant. I'm aware that what falls under a particular sub's scope of work varies from region to region.
Why are contractors cheap if they pay the framer to install the trim rather than a finish guy? He's still paying somebody, right?
Of course there are framers who do wonderful finish work, but they are in the minority.
Nice mop up.View Image
I was waiting to see the smack when he posted that.Speak the truth, or make your peace some other way.
Calm down. Did you have a crappy day or what.
I've fixed enough crappy facia/siding/windows/doors/trim/stairs/etc. installed by framers, trained enough framers who thought they wanted to be finish carps, and listened to enough excuses from GCs about why their exterior trim is so rough to feel comfortable standing by my statement that most framers do not make good finish carps.
The reason GCs have framers install windows, door, exterior trim, etc. is that it's less expensive. Period. No GC I've ever known was having the framers do it for better quality! Give me a break.
Maybe your finish carps don't do exterior trim but ours do.
If your crew is good at all exterior stuff good for you, but if you're trying to convince me that framers on average are ideally suited for the job you're blowing smoke up the wrong ars.
What difference does it make anyway? It's no secret that framers are better at frameing, finish carps are better at finish-type jobs, painters are better at painting, etc. The trades have developed into specializations because people are usually better at certain things. It's not a value judgement when stating that a trade is better at certain things.
You're blind to regional differences. That's fine, but don't come in here spouting off like you're the authority on what framers can and can't do. You're dead wrong. You may be speaking with absolute certainty and accuracy for your particular location, but you should consider prefacing your rants by indicating such.
If your crew is good at all exterior stuff good for you, but if you're trying to convince me that framers on average are ideally suited for the job you're blowing smoke up the wrong ars.
Yeah dingbat that's exactly what I'm telling you. We are ideally suited for the job. Who's going to do a cleaner job trimming out a 12" rake overhang with crown, flat stock, and other moldings.... me, while it's laying on the deck and my slider is 10' away... or you, 35' in the air with your knees knocking on your pumpjacks and your cut man 35' below you?
Who's going to do it in a more cost effective manner?
Open your eyes brother. There's more than one right way to skin this cat.
View Image
Edited 4/5/2006 11:09 pm ET by dieselpig
I'm in Diesel's area and no trim carps leave the inside of a house. It has absolutely nothing to do with cost, its just how things are done around here. I've seen plenty of trim carps that do lousy work, and I've seen $15 million dollar palaces (diesel knows, weston and wellesley) where framers ran the exterior trim and those are flawless. Where does it say that framers cannot do quality exterior trim? Maybe in your area they cannot, but around here they do great work.
You should not forget that what is normal practice in CA is very different in FL, what is normal in texas is different than our area in the northeast. Like Diesel said, the homeowners or gc's are still paying for the exterior trim labor, so why would you think they are cheap? Our inspection are different than the west coast and hurricane area's, so everything that can possibly go on before the walls are raised goes on. But I guess the framer should frame the gable end, then call in the trim carps to do the rakes before they are raised?
Maybe your finish carps don't do exterior trim but ours do.
Trout, you obviusly do things differently than we do here. I've been at this more than three decades and I've never seen a finish carpenter outside doing ANYTHING!
Your oversimplified statements are somewhat offensive to me, but I've seen enough crappy interior finish work to know that there are a lot of trimmers that wouldn't last a day with me on a frame.
It's got nothing to do with money. The trimmers work cheaper around here. They can afford to because they get a steady 2000 hour per year paycheck. We have to earn the same amount in 1500 hours or less.
blue
Paul,
It's different everywhere.
Years ago framing included all framing/sheathing/windows/exterior doors/exterior trim fascias and soffits only. No questions asked. Now it's different because a lot of builders have their own exterior trim guys to do that.
I discuss this with every Builder and GC I frame for and it's all spelled out on my estimates what I include and what I don't include. Your framer should've done the same thing but exterior trim is not "Rough Framing" it's Trim. If he doesn't have it on his contract to you than it's not included.
What the Framer should've done BEFORE he went ahead and did this was to tell you what the extra would cost and then you would've had this conversation before any of the work was performed. I don't see how it's a change order when there was nothing changed.
You said, "My contention is that this is part of rough framing." Just because you assumed that, it doesn't mean it was included and you shouldn't pay him. The T&G sheathing should've been included in the framing price because it's sheathing. I always figure more for that naturally but it goes with the framing.
I traveled today and left one of my brain cells down there, so I've only one left to work with. I've read this multiple times and I am not seeing the question, or not getting it. He's giving you a change order? Someone please put this into really really simple English for me tonight. Man it must have been a long day.
"Sometimes when I consider what tremendous consequences come from little things, I am tempted to think -- there are no little things" - Bruce Barton
The first guy who can explain to me how he's gonna sheathe the roof without the rake board and the fascia in place gets to exclude those from the scope of work.
I'm doing a small framing job right now. We installed the cedar fascia and rake before the roof sheathing. I suppose I could have put on sub-fascia and sub-rake and let someone else apply the stuff that shows... but why?
Your framer is guilty of not discussing this with you in advance. Woe on he that surprises the owner with a change order. A contractor's job is to define everything he's doing and everything he's not, and what it costs... even moreso when working for a homeowner like yourself.
"The first guy who can explain to me how he's gonna sheathe the roof without the rake board and the fascia in place gets to exclude those from the scope of work.""We installed the cedar fascia and rake before the roof sheathing."David,We sheath every day without rakes on. What do the rakes being on first have to do with sheathing? We use a 2x sub-fascia and if we have fly rafters/gable overhangs we will install them first and sheath on top of them.Joe Carola
That's how we do it too Framer. It's pretty rare that I have time to get the fascia up before my guys start throwing sheathing around on the roof. Our rakes are usually done before they even get stood, but I know you guys have sheathing crews so that alters the flow a bit.View Image
Pretty much every roof here has a piece of resawn cedar rake board as the outermost piece of the roof. It's installed directly on the outlookers, if any, or hung from the ridge board and the fascia. The fascia is installed without subfascia in a lot of cases, I'd say most since boxed soffits are only common on high end homes. The custom is for the framers to install all of the cedar and then the roof deck. I assume that in boxed-soffit country the rake and fascia can be put on after the ply, but most of my experience is west coast and open soffit details. On some jobs the ply stops at the wall line and 1x4 beadboard takes it out to the rake.
Based on what the OP was saying it sounds like he has that detail. The GC throwing a change order at him to get the beadboard up there is rude, in my opinion, probably a classic case of ignoring details on the plans and then later claiming they're changes.
Edited 4/5/2006 10:02 pm by davidmeiland
I'd say most since boxed soffits are only common on high end homes. The custom is for the framers to install all of the cedar and then the roof deck. I assume that in boxed-soffit country the rake and fascia can be put on after the ply,
Every house here in Michigan is a closed soffit system, including the cheapest of the cheap. I've never seen an open cornice system except maybe once on an old barn out in the country.
We put our overhangs on, including all the fascias, before we raise them.
Heres some pics: The wall is being flown in. Once set, we tie the pine together first, then the frame. The finished product cannot be improved. There isn't a trimmer in the world, past or present that could make it look better.
I hate to infom the masses but Carpentry ain't rocket science.
blue
I hate to infom the masses but Carpentry ain't rocket science.
Exactly. It's simply a matter of training. If a guy with a bit of talent or at least a desire to learn, can be taught framing then he mostly likely can be taught some finish work as well. I wouldn't expect a framer who had never been taught how to run trim to be able to do it, any more than I'd expect an a talented finish guy to be able to whip together a complicated roof frame. Doesn't mean he's not capable, just untrained.
Those pictures were awesome Blue. That is serious talent. To be able to frame with that degree of accuracy on measurements alone, then fly it in with a XX,000 lb machine, and have it fit like it grew there? Whew. Nice work.View Image
Thanks Diesel, but it's a lot easier than you think. I could teach a newbie how to do it in ten minutes and he'd probably only screw up one or two corners before he caught on.
Our "trick" is to run the frieze 1/8" long, then use actual measurements for each projecting part. If you neglect to add that first 1/8", everything will have a gap...then some glue.
Hey...they use woodfiller and glue on furniture....so if it's good enough for furniture, it's good enough for exterior trim.
I acutually prefer to get some glue in the final assemblies.
blue
One of my rookie helpers was looking for the sky hook...I guess I can tell him you've got it in Michigan.
Tommorrow I'll send him after the ID ten tee strap / abbriviated IDI0T.
Great way to do that, one of the benefits of being really f'ing good at it. There really aren't any framing specialists here, no one that could compete with you or Brian. Everyone, including me, frames the walls flat, adds the plywood or OSB, stands them up, adds rafters or trusses, and then starts dealing with the soffit from there. If the soffit is enclosed, wrapped with crown, etc., that will get done from planks or from a platform on a forklift.
The same guys will do the whole job, framing, possibly even the concrete, right up thru the interior trim, cabinet installs, etc. I suppose a guy could get on a crew here if he were not inclined to trim, but he'd get laid off a lot. If you approach a builder here about a job as a carp you'd better say you do it all.
On the other hand, you could probably move here with your partner and put about ten all-around carps completely out of work by taking a bunch of frame-only contracts.
That T&G sheathing should definitely be included as part of the rough framing package. But the fascia and rake boards (as long as he's not talking about sub-fascia) could possibly be considered trim. But I don't know why he wouldn't have included it in his original price.
Seems like he's trying to cover his butt. Maybe you could compromise with him to try to keep him happy. Unhappy framers are not good to be around. Not that it's excusable if he's trying to put one over on you...
Wow,
Didn't mean to stir up a controversy. Here are some additional facts. I am on the West Coast. It's a one piece fascia (5/4 primed redwood) nailed directly to the rafter tails and outriggers. The eaves are open. The roof couldn't be installed without them.
"I am on the West Coast. It's a one piece fascia (5/4 primed redwood) nailed directly to the rafter tails and outriggers. The eaves are open. The roof couldn't be installed without them."Why can't the roof be installed without them?Joe Carola
Comp. shingles are a lot easier to install if the roof sheathing is installed first! By the way since when is New Jersey on the West Coast?
"Comp. shingles are a lot easier to install if the roof sheathing is installed first! By the way since when is New Jersey on the West Coast?"I thought that you meant that you can't install shingles without the fascia first. So what difference does it make wher I'm from?Joe Carola
Here in Texas it is
Frame: 2" frame members / structural beams
Cornice: wall sheathing / windows / doors / soffit / siding / trim
Deck: roof decking
So, we have the following:
Framer or Frame Crew
Cornice Man or Cornice Crew
Roof Decker or Deck Crew
Generally, a carpenter who takes all phases (frame / cornice / deck) is called a framer.
We also have Windstorm Crews / hurricane clips / holddowns / interior shear walls
If I had a framer doing only the 2", I would not expect him to do the facia, or even the subfacia. The cornice man does the sub facia after wall sheathing. The decking follows the facia install (here). I would not expect the framer (2" only) to do any decking..
I have mostly hired framers who did all phases, but the last house I hired a framer who had 4 different crews: framers / cornice / deck / windstorm. For a couple of days all of the crews were there at the same time....about 20 men doing carpentry work.
4500 SF fancy frame home in 3 weeks. See pdf floor plan.
So you're saying the average framer can't join two pieces of redwood?
"Citius, Altius, Fortius"
Fascia finish material?
Will it be covered by another board or aluminum?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
One Piece!
Thats finish work......make sure you charge him for the soffiet details.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
You shouldn't advertise if thats the way you run a business.
Wow....for someone not sure whether or not fascia is considered rough framing you certainly seem quick to make up your mind about the proper way to do business.
Lighten up Francis.
For the record.....I don't advertise....no need to. I could keep us both busy for quite some time.
Not knowing what is included in a contract however, is a great example of poor business practice.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
If you told him he was only doing the rough framing, and someone else was responsible for the exterior trim then yes, it is ok for him to charge you a reasonable amount for doing that work. Remember this : if a contract is vague it is usually ruled in favor of whoever DIDN'T write it.
In my book, anything that is painted or exposed to the weather is not rough framing. It is cornice. And roof decking is roof decking. If my contract is for framing only then anything else will be a change order.
John