The question has gone through my mind a few times. Since it’s a slow weekend I wanted to throw this out there.
Are you better off financially because of the technological advances that we have had in the construction industry?
Example – 30 years ago, roofers hand nailed shingles. They got whatever – say $50/square. Guns come out and they nail like crazy. But eventually, everybody’s got them and you are competing on a level playing field again. Then on top of it, you need a trailer to carry the tools and two days a month to service it all…
Same thing with engineered lumber – makes the job easier (sometimes), but does it get more money in your pocket?
Or would we all be better off if we were hand nailing and cutting rafters with a hand saw?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations – New Construction – Rentals
Replies
Don,
My trade combines the new and old.
All slates are carefully laid and nailed by hand using antique slate hammers. Slates are brought up to roof level by an electric reiman- Georger ladder hoist.
An air powered cap nailer by Hitachi speeds up the underlayment process.
I could go back to all the old ways, but I doubt I ever will.
Walter
When I learned framing in the 70's we hand nailed everything. Senco rep came by and "loaned" us a gun. We finished sooner, collected the same s.f. pay.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
You collected the same square foot pay, in the short run.
But after a while, the prices will go down because of market forces. Or what about somebody working salary or day's pay for a builder? In the end, don't you just wind up making the same day's pay?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
We supplied the fasteners for the job. Oddly, the rep quit I guess and the gun was now the property of the lead. Odd grouping on this crew, we split the pay after expenses equally.
So, for the next two years we made more per hour because we were quicker than the hand nailing days. During that time, the per s.f. didn't increase or decrease if memory serves me right.
I know that at the end of the day we were a bit fresher, had made more and were off to the next one sooner.
For finish work, better results, quicker. I've hand nailed a lot of mitres and I would never go back to that for almost any reason.
Power over hand tools? I wouldn't go that route unless I was on display at Williamsburg.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Sure Has--
Without computers I'd be just another dude with a hammer.
Without the ability to create ads and articles... I'd be much poorer.
Without the ability to archive designs and create the manuals, our builder group wouldn't exist.
With the way I was working way too many hours and being accident prone...I wouldn't likely have any fingers or toes left at all!
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Time for your usual sojourn back to BT?
Hope your Christmas was fine and the New Year prosperous.
The next fest appears to be in Indiana, think you might be tempted?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hey Calvin!
Glad you are weathering this storm comfortably--
Congrats on noticing the trend! Christmas break is my only break in recent years.
Sure do miss you breaktimers--
All the best to you and yours too Calvin.
The fests are always summer--and always the hardest time for me to break free--but I'll keep an eye peeled and you never know!
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of
it!
The Deck and Fence
Blog
How many do you have left?
Seemed like you were modifying them quite regularly for awhile. :)
Joe H
Yeah.. chopped one finger in half...like dropping a finger onto a blade, (but is still there and operable). Cut a thumb off and they put it back on (fused--so the kids always beat me at video games). Put a push stick nearly through the right hand... shot myself with nailers about 18 times... 2 crushed discs...
And even with this shopping list of brutality--still functional.
Answer being--still have all digits--one thumb looks different but has blood flow and nerve reattached thanks to Dr. Toye in Orillia.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Time to quit and let medical science advance without you.
Joe H
Yeah.. I don't stray too far from the puter these days
"Said as I finish up changing an outlet on a live circuit for mama's wainscotting"
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Power over hand tools? I wouldn't go that route unless I was on display at Williamsburg.
Boy you got that right! I dont really get the "Williamsburg" thing anyhow, you think those guys back in the old days wouldn't have loved to have a power tool, an air gun, or how bout a MM! Damn strait they would have. Wasn't it the Shakers that invented the table saw?
Doug
I believe they invented the circular saw.
I believe a shaker woman was credited with the invention of the sawblade.circular saws were first developed in the sugar cane industry and then were adapted and improved for construction by Skil, IIRC
Barry E-Remodeler
True as far as I know. The story is that a woman who was sitting at a spinning wheel working had a moment of inspiration while watching the men outside her window cut boards form a log. She "saw" her spinning "wheel" and the teeth of the saw combined.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Tabitha Babbitt."Tabitha Babbitt (c, 1784-1854) was a Shaker from Harvard, Massachusetts, who invented the circular saw in 1810. The first blades were hand powered, but later versions were powered by water wheels and steam. Prior to the invention of the circular saw, logs were cut using two-man pit saws. The circular saw proved to be more efficient and more easily linked to power sources."Babbitt's other inventions included a new method of making false teeth, an improved spinning wheel head, and cut (as opposed to individually forged) nails. This latter invention enabled mass production of nails."However, because of Babbitt's Shaker beliefs, she did not obtain patents for her inventions."(source: http://www.moah.org/exhibits/archives/tools/exhibit_guide_tools.html)she didn't patent it so someone else did . . . soj
(expiring minds want to know :^))
I believe Larry Haun sp? did an article in FHB a while back called "A Carpenter's Life". He talked about how much has changed due to the improvements in tools & materials. While some things have gone down like lumber quality, tools have made things easier on the body. It's a good read, and I hope to be as healthy as Larry is at that age. Financially, I think the tools are needed to level the playing field as you mentioned, it's the business sense of the owner that makes them better off. Especially with the past building boom of larger, more complicated houses, built faster.
I'd like to have Piffin or DieselPig weigh in.
-D
It has made life easier on the body, without a doubt. But, now we have less physically fit construction workers too. I could put a smiley face here, but there's a downside to that as well as an upside. It lets people work longer in their lives and lets people with some physical problems do work. That's why I focused on the financial part of it.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
In the case of those who work as paid help to a builder or contractor, technology probably hasn't done much for them financially. (Health & longevity issues aside)
To the owner/sole proprietor, I'd say definitely they're better off. Like you made reference in earlier post... more ouput same payroll.
-D
"tools have made things easier on the body"I just bought my first roof nailer 18 months ago. No faster than hand nailing for me, but easier on the body and since I'm getting old....I have owned a framing nailer since the day I started remo work on my own. Still hand nail rafters but platform framing and sheathing is a waste of energy for me to hand nail.I can remember using a circ saw my first time and how it scared me, but it sure beat using a handsaw. Guards and dust diverters are good improvements. There was a time I thought cordless drills were goofy gimics, but I can't remember the last time I took the time to dig out a corded drill for something other than a big 4" holesaw or a mixing paddle.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Since I've worked hand in glove with an "old school" guy I guess I've adopted some of his attitudes and behaviors. I also see a lot of reasons why he sees things the way he does.We will hand nail all trim work if the gun won't set right, which has happened and before we could afford to get a gun, we hand face nailed all trim. Came out much nicer, although yes, it took time. Probably better for me though as I learned how to "speed nail" as my partner says --- take a bunch of nails in your non-hammer hand, roll them as you need and feed your nail hand.We'll hand bang roofing if its easier and quicker than the time involved in dragging out a compressor and gun. Again, I've learned how to nail faster, having to keep up with my partner, but I still can't hand bang a shingle as fast as he can. On the other hand, it absolutely sucks to have to frame by hand, which I've done here and there too. We still do hand nail some framing, if for instance, we want an extra tight hold on something, or the stock may require a longer nail, say like a 20d, or maybe we want a nice, chunky 16d galv. to hold something, instead of nailing it to death with a gun.The last example shows that sometimes quality work requires slowing the clock down. Frankly, I don't make money doing call-backs or dealing with angry customers because something looks like #### or worked its way apart -- the nightmare of framing I guess, or maybe its just me that worries about that sometimes.I've sat up in bed at night going over nailing of that day, did I get all the rafters? Did they all get their required amount of nails? Did so and so nail the sheathing every 6" like I said? Did I check that end?I'm working for someone else right now and I still find myself worrying. I think that's a personality trait and I also think that in of itself can slow things down as I check and recheck and recheck.
Absolutely.
Stir the pot Saturday:
However, just wait till htere is some group out there that comes up with
"machine rights", esp. whenever AI comes about.
The Romans, Greeks, plantation masters, etc. used slaves; we use machines.
If machines become self aware, won't they have rights at least as much as animals?
It's a question of efficiency and timing.
If you are in the minority that can effectively use new technology, then yes, you will make more money that the next guy.
This is difficult to do though. You have to pick the right, new equipment every time (some time savers are actually time wasters)
You have to be able to shorten the learning curve. (some guys are still learning how to use something years later)
In a nutshell, you have to be quicker to the market with the new stuff, before everyone else starts using it. And you actually have to use it to your advantage.
DonK
I used to watch a typical 1000 sq.ft. house be framed with a crew of 7 and it took 2 weeks. (pre powersaw, nail gun and telehandler).
Today a 2500 sq.ft two story house can be built and framed using telehandler, nail gun and power saws etc. inside of 5 days using a crew of three.
Market conditions determine profit..
In the early 90's per sq foot prices were around $5-7 dollars a sq.ft. during the peak (1999) sq.ft. prices hovered around $10-12 a sq.ft. however by the spring of 2007 crews were fighting each other to earn $5.00 a sq.ft.
Paying for the equipment was a simple management choice.
You could hire an extra body to hump lumber pay him $15.00 an hour plus costs when he showed up.. ($15 dollar humpers tended not to be too reliable) or spend about $5.00 an hour for the telehandler and build it using 20% less labor 20% faster..
It takes about 5 years to pay for a new telehandler and they last 20+ years so you get about 15 years of free labor /scafolding & ease of construction.. actually that's a bit confusing.. if you use the money you'd pay an extra worker it takes 5 years to pay off the forklift. If you pay $5.00 an hour it takes the 20 years a forklift lasts..
Edited 12/29/2007 11:23 am ET by frenchy
"Market conditions determine profit."
Yup. And it is my suspicion that the market adjusts for some of these advancements as time goes on. The tool that made everyone faster becomes expected or assumed and gets built into the pricing as part of the overhead. Some items, like a telehandler, are beyond the budget of some contractors, but those that work regularly on bigger stuff will wind up using it. It will reduce the time spent and eventually whoever is paying the bill will find a way to reduce the price because the job doesn't take as long.
Less expensive tools - chop saws, laser levels, calculators - are quickly assumed to be in the box. If I went to a site and told a boss that I needed an extra $500 for the trim because I need a few extra days to us a wooden mitre box, I'd get laughed off the job.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
DonK
You are aware that in real adjusted for inflation terms carpenters haven't had a pay raise in three decades..
your only choice is to get faster.. (or accept less income)
your example shows how it works.. If you had a trim box you'd need $500 extra for the hours to do the trim job you mentioned.. a SCMS costs less than the $500 you mentioned so even if you paid retail and bought a stand in two jobs it's paid for and since it lasts more than two jobs it's free thereafter.. or you make the profit from that point on..
Be glad that there is a buy in price.. It keeps the guy off the street from walking in and underbidding you..
So if you need $10,000 worth of tolls and a trailer to put them in and you need a $95,000 telehandler, it's that much more of a hurdle for a new guy to get started so fewer people are flooding into the market..
As far as your added second example of a humper, sometimes it's more effective to use the manpower.
I've got a sewer line that needs to be dug out and raised at the house for better pitch. Called a plumber in that has a backhoe and asked him for a price. I told him that my helper was willing to hand dig the trench for days pay. Plumber said he couldn't compete with the hand labor. Machine cost too much.
I had some trees pruned recently. Had a price from a man with a bucket truck and another price from a fellow cutting by hand in the tree. The guy cutting by hand was about a third of the price of the truck. To be fair, I did have to loan him a rope man for a few hours, but he didn't have to pay for the equipment.
It becomes a question of a case by case basis sometimes.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Don,
Heres a case where staging this repair would have taken way more cabbage than renting this 135' machine.View Image
View Image
DonK
You are correct on a case by case always assuming you do a variety of jobs.. If today you put in a sewer and tomorrow you frame you simply cannot be as productive doing either task as someone who does it all of the time..
For example I had a contractor who used to frame a 2500 sq.ft 2 story house in 4 days. (windows and doors installed) Him and his two sons, On the 5th day they'd pass inspection and move to their next job..
But if you have to erect scaffolding to put big windows into a second story you can easily have a days work involved whereas a telehandler on the job it becomes maybe a 15 minute job..
Same with digging a sewer line.. The right machine it's an hours work, tops.. do 5 or 6 a day and you have a decent income.
The kicker is that the guy who works for wages when he retires he has nothing to sell. The guy who acquires equipment and tools has a business to sell
I think this is a good question, but when considering such, there are other factors too that make the answer harder to determine.
Engineered lumber works well because it will often succeed in meeting the demands of the project while saving time in cutting/sawing/procuring rough lumber, space or cost in iron.
Also, one has to consider that I think we do more work today to meet more stringent building codes than were required 30 or more years ago. There I would think, is more follow-up and required compliance which adds costs to the project in many ways.
When speaking of code compliance, also comes to mind technique. The most efficient builder/carpenter may not be the highest craftsman. I think there's a give and take in either direction and some aesthetics cannot be measured in dollars alone. But then again we gotta feed ourselves.
Also I would think other factors impact the industry that impact return on dollar invested, such as the type of construction demanded in the market today as opposed to yesteryear. When people have less money to spend or are trapped lock-step in following mortgagee's requirements for housing value, then how does that effect us compared to days past?
Also, such things as increased cost of fuel, higher safety standards, more regulation of finances and a customer that demands more for less, all impact things today.
Lastly, I always wonder if today, in our past 20 years of non-union anti-guild culture, the tradesman/craftsman is less appreciated and less often fairly remunerated in contrast to say, the 50's or back.
You are right that there are many different considerations, some of it not considered in the initial question.
Your post makes me wonder about the difference between a carpenter from say 1895 and 2005. Would have liked to see the two of them sitting down at lunch to talk about what they have in common. Both would probably gripe about how hard they worked, how the customers didn't appreciate them, how hard it was to get paid a living wage and how the trades were going to Hades because they couldn't find good help.
I just think back one generation to my Dad. He started work in the 30's as a kid, died in 2000. He used to rant and rave about how there were roofers that actually used a gun to nail shingles. He got into more than one argument with architects about the benefits of engineered lumber too. He did switch from cast iron and galvanized pipe to plastic when it was allowed, I don't think he was happy about it. OTOH he loved his profession and took pride in it. He was more concerned than many people with doing the job properly and less concerned with making money. That trait is getting really hard to find as time goes on. To me the technology allows more people to do work that are just doing it for the money.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
"...tradesman/craftsman is less appreciated and less often fairly remunerated in contrast to say, the 50's or back."
That's why it is my top frustration. WE set our wages. WE decide our worth collectively.
The lowest common denominator in this trade is clueless about business and profit and it costs everyone.
Nuff rant for the day. How do we educate everyone ?
In Toronto we have about 40,000 russians and guys from eastern europe that get free health care and don't pay taxes and work for cash cheap in the building trades... so we build what they would find impossible.
If they have the misfortune of building one of my designs... their bid will often be 1/ or 1/3 of mine they lose their shirt because they blew the pricing. They rarely do it twice.
They stick to the simple stuff... and leave the wild work to the guys that know what they are doing.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Speaking of 'wild work' we contracted with an engineer on a job in late 2005 that was supposed to be finished in the summer of 2006. The engineer was less than up front about his actual intentions and changed the plans after we signed with the homeowner. We got stuck doing the job, to make a long story short, but we were able to handle it and finish it as my partner has extensive commercial framing experience. Our framer sub quit when he saw the final plans because he couldn't wrap his mind around the elaborate framing and I couldn't get a single residential 'contractor' to manage to understand the framing either, so we did it ourselves. We finished the project but at a great loss. The homeowner got what we contracted and then some. I learned a valuable, expensive lesson about trusting engineers or anyone on their word.So, as for how much better off we are now? Not as good as we were in 2005, but much wiser. Just sucks that not long after we got our heads out from under that nightmare, that the market tanked.Around here licensing isn't required, so everyone and their uncle that can swing a hammer calls himself a contractor -- a do it all contractor at that. Its hard to compete against that.
girl,
Here in NW Oh (and SE Mi.) we have had another blow dealt to the auto industry. In the next few months Chrysler will be laying off an entire shift in Toledo, about 800 blue collar jobs. Same goes across the border in Mi. Their cutback will mean an influx of bodies into the building trades, at least until the workers find something more regular. More softening in an already soft market for the carpenter. This happens after the closing of the Ford stamping plant here in my town.
Add those workers (that seem to fall easily into remodeling) to the laid off carpenters from the lessened new construction market and every remodel job seems to be getting more rare.
I hope reputation can keep me in solid work and realistic pricing.
But hey, it's the New Year...........everythings looking up!
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
i did not like nailing off decks by hand, i saved and saved for my Yankee screwdriver, I used my handsaw every day, We had a hand miterbox and set all our trim nails, I love my impact screwgun , Makita miterbox and nailguns.Being by myself and doing small jobs i do much by hand still, I dont drag out the compressor for a few nails and still cut miters by hand. I see a lot of roofers handnailing still and i do for small jobs, Truth be told the help wont bother with the settings and destroy or drop the guns is the real reason they hand nail, Maybe im old but i dont remember all these nitwits being around.
I actually enjoy hand nailing sometimes. I get into a trance and just go at it. Mindless repetition, but still fun occasionally. Don't think I would enjoy it if I did it 8 hours straight. No, change that. I know I would get real tired of it, real quick. But for the short term, okay.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
DonK
What I appreciate about nail guns is how they let me nail stuff off with a simple pull of the trigger rather than swat at something while awkwardly holding it in place.
When I did the trim around my house the speed which I could trim stuff was simply awesome. I mean I took the boards from green to dry and then ran them thru the planer to smooth them out.. In a lot of cases I put a champher on them or some other finish treatment. Finally I needed to get three coats of spar varnish on them, so doing something quickly was a real change of pace. A simple pull of the the trimnailers trigger and the nail would be in place and set!
Hours or days worth of work finished up inside of a few moments! OK I have about 5000 hours of outside help building this place. I know that sounds like a lot, but to go from rough green wood to 5500 sq.ft. of double timberframe is a major achievement. If it were a simple square or rectangle home it would still be a lot pof time but I made things deliberately difficult.. a round tower that starts on the second floor? How about the front of the house 1/2 round?
In a lot of sense I combined the best of the old and the best of the new. I mean those trusses went up in place with a telehandler. 56 feet plus a 12 foot jib just barely reached, but once up in place fingertips moved it around untill it was perfectly aligned.. probably somewhere near 2000 pounds worth of white oak timbers and I used my fingertips.
30 foot long 8 foot wide nearly a foot thick panels lifted up in place with my fingertips. and aligned using the same..
Tons of wood lifted up into place where it would be needed..
Standing on workplatforms setting windows in place nearly 25 feet above ground with no effort. or shingling a 27/12 pitch roof standing on the platform with the work at exactly the right height.. and having the stack of shingles right next to you so you didn't even have to reach over to pick them up..
On the other hand I planed those timbers and put champhers on the corners pretty much by hand.. Same with making tenions or mortice pockets.. (well except for the power tools that did 90% of the work!) ;-)
I'm 59 1/2 years old, fat out of shape and had never done this sort of thing before.
without equipment and tools none of this would have ever happened..
good Q to ponder - and I have from time to time.
I think the technology is good because it saves resources somewhat.
In some trades, it does dumb things down a bit to where an average HO DIY can now do things that once might have taken a well trained and equipt pro to do.
Another version of the same thought is what I walked the kids through before they started driving.
I made it a requirement that they pay for their own insurance and gasoline.
So it ended up that most of their meager part time earnings went into the car.
They argued that if they had a license and a car, they could get a job to work so they could have money.
Then they ended up working and still no money....more or less...
or - I was talked into getting CAD and a PC oh - and Quickbooks
It saves time and money, but i have to keep upgrading and hitting the new learning curve which takes time and money - and then there is the BT addiction...
;)
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!