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How many bids would you like to see?
Three bids, so that I have some idea as to whether the bid price(I) are at least reasonable, compared one to the other. I don’t necessarily take the lowest bid, either. A lot depends on my impressions of the person bidding the work.
Describe the appearance and personality attributes that you would perceive a good craftsman/contractor to have.
I just finished letting work for masonry and driveway paving to a person who spent a lot of time making sure that he really understood the job. He visited the property several times, asked more questions than all the others put together. Personal appearance and personality weren’t the main area of interest for me: I wanted someone that I thought I could work with (I provided some of the labor), and who would absolutely not “talk down” to me. Some contractors like to demonstrate their superior knowledge of their craft in a belittling way, assuming that the homeowner home owner very un-knowledgable, or pretty stupid. Those contractors get their work somewhere other than at my home!!
I also recently let a job for building a new garage: foundation, walls, roof, slab (I’m doing the finishing). I did not get three bids on this, but I got a very strong recommendation from my architect, which has turned out to be a brilliant choice. The man and his team have been very thorough, and pretty careful of the rest of the property.
In summary, the contractor needs to demonstrate an interest in the job, a willingness to work with the homeowner,home ownererences. A broad range of appearances and personalities would be OK.
Where the heck do you hide your beer?
I don’t permit alcohol on the job site.
Replies
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The 3 bids is for guestimating. You're not supposed to take the highest or the lowest...just like Baby Bear, the one that is just right. I rejected the lowest(my mistake, actually) in favor of the highest(I got about 5 estimates) because the boss of the salesman called and offered me a 'professionally taken FAMILY photo' if I would accept the lowest bid. Talk about CONDESCENDING!!! It still steams me!
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kai:
Although my price will change if unforseen conditions change the scope of work, I agree with you that If I estimated my hours badly, I've got to eat it. I can't imagine saying to a customer: "I only thought I'd be here three days so you owe more money." In fact, I'll be suprised if you ever hear this from anybody.
*i "Why do some contractors charge a markup fee?"Scott, just curious, have you ever worked for yourself? And a word of advice, if you got a guy who's only marking up 10%, grab him, because he won't be around long. And if he is not marking up his material, he sure better be making up for it in his labor!I mark up everything 50%, and him considering raising that. Out of every dollar I get from the customer, approx. 40 cents goes to direct costs (materials), approx. 20 cents goes to my labor burden and approx. another 25 cents goes to my overhead. Now that leaves me 15 cents for profit. (If everything goes smooth) And in remodeling very seldom does everything go smooth. If something takes longer to do than planned, where does it come out of? Now assuming eveything went smooth and I got my 15% net profit, for all the risks we assume taking on that job 15% return on our investment doesn't seem like much to ask for. You could put your money in the market and make a better return than that and not nearly the hassles. :)i "I'm encouraged to do my own material shopping (sometimes at a better i price than his pre-markup these days) on my own schedule, which just i makes things more difficult for the contractor." Not for any intelligent contractor!Ryan and James made excellent points, think about it. Your method is a recipe for disaster for remodeling.Barr
*Scott wants to know why "some contractors" charge markup?Because we run a business,not a charity.We are on the job to make a profit,not to subsidize the construction of your dream project.Please hire a contractor who doesn't mark up,and see if he is in business long enough to finish your project.PS, Scott---what do you think my workers comp. rates are? You know the insurance that protects you ,the homeowner, from being sued when a roofer falls off a 3-story house and goes splat on the driveway?I would happily forgo the markup on your your job,if you will make just one workers comp premium payment for me.What does your employer bill for an hour of your time?good Luck All,Stephen
*Since my work is different from pretty much everybody here, I have always felt that I straddle the world of customer and contractor. Since I don't actually have any real construction skills of my own, and just dabble on the job when it suits my convenience, I spend my time handling the business end and see a huge discrepancy between what a homeowner is looking for and what contractors or trades are giving. It's like talking two different languages.There's been a lot of really good comments about what we should be doing to make and keep happy customers. One point to remember is that saying it, and actually doing it, are two different things. Whether you are succeeding must be judged from the perspective of the customer, not by whether you think you are doing your best. One area that has distinguished my work from others is the ability to give greater value for the money, and the ability to cover variables without having to go back to the well. By that, I mean that I run an extremely cost-effective operation. I hate to waste materials, to have down time and to have people do work twice. I plan it to be done once, and done right, and I never try to short change the customer. I look at every penny as if it was my own, because it is. Every penny of the customer's that gets wasted comes out of my profit. And I'm in business for profit, not to piss it away because Joe, the carpenters helper, wasn't thinking that day and damaged some high priced item. I know that many here think I'm harsh, but my business makes money and my customers are happy. And my employees, despite my being demanding, like knowing what's expected of them and take satisfaction from their job well done. (It dosen't hurt that they are well paid). It's tough to run a successful business.As to the variables, I don't charge for unforeseen extras because the customer has nothing to say about what gets done here. I just do what has to be done. Customers aren't made of money, and they usually budget what they can on a job to get the most out of it. When they get a price, they rely on that price and rely on the GC's expertise in arriving at the price. When you tell them that when they open a wall, the price can go up and you don't know how much, you are really telling them that you want a blank check. Is anybody comfortable giving out blank checks? While this may seem fair from the GC side, how does the customer look at it. He wants to know if he can afford to get the job he wants done, and looks to you to tell him. So tell him.In the long run, you prove yourself to the customer to be a stand up guy and you have given the customer what he asked you for in the first place. SHG
*... on the other hand ... (isn't there always one?)The only borderline thieves (i'm being nice) I encountered getting quotes to replace our home's 25 y.o. 2-1/2 ton A/C had matching uniforms with their names on them. (If you think I exaggerate: the lead guy said they'd redo the entire plenum, turn the equipment around for access, etc. -- maybe $1400 extra -- oh yeah, and definitely get rid of the ancient 8 y.o. 78% AFUE furnace to "save money" -- of course that would mean running new air supply and flue lines, condensate collector -- I was stunned, speechless.) Of the other guys, the worst 3 quotes (too high and ignored our needs, though they have laptops to come up with the sizing) wore business suits; the best 2 looked like, well, people who work with their hands for a living (or had but now ran the family business) down to earth, normal (looked at house; grunted; gave same sizing as guys with laptops; gave brief friendly advice on my desire to demo chimney and run new flue myself).And all I wanted to know was how big the thing should be and how much it would cost installed. I didn't ask the price per ounce of refrigerant or anything. I even felt bad I had to get so many quotes -- surprise, a personal reference turned out better than the Yellow Pages.P.S. Parenthetically, in computer science gravitate towards the guy with the pony tail, not the tie. In the biz, in-the-know advisors are sometimes known as "T-shirts." I learned this early at trade shows.
*Do you ever cut them slack if the job goes incredibly well?
*James, Ryan, Nobody is running a charity here. When I hire a contractor, whether I supply the materials, or he does, I expect him to get paid for any running around and time spent getting materials. That's part of the labour rate. As, is workers compensation, gas for the truck, equipment and tools. You're builders, not retailers. Dropping your labour rate to be "competative" and adding a markup to "make up the difference" doesn't make your work any more competative to the customer, and in my opinion is a little bit misleading.
*Well, you asked for the customer's input?
*Scott,I'm a remodeler/home repair specialist, not a builder. My world is a little bit different (though not a whole lot) than builders.I mark my materials up because of the costs involved in running my business. This is part of the profit I receive, which is my wages. If you want to get the materials, I'm for it, to a point. My experience tells me that the homeowner will not usually get all of the necessary material that I need, nor will they have it at the time I need it. I hear all kinds of excuses like "I had a doctors appointment, and I just haven't had time to go get the stuff". I have different mark up rates, depending on the price range of the material. For instance, a pre-cut 2 x 4 (92 5/8") goes for $2.19 here. Many times, after I start the job, I find I need maybe one 2 x 4 for some extra support that was not evident at the time of bid. No problem if you provide it. But... are you really willing to go 25 miles (as in my case) to the lumberyard to get me one 2 x 4? The gas you use alone would cost more than the lumber. If you are willing, I would prefer that you do it. But just remember, AFTER you buy the material, and adding the cost of the gas you just used, you have actually paid my markup, and then some. After all, the gas I use would cost more than the lumber, or the markup too. I would actually go in the hole if I made the trip. When I mark up my material, it covers the cost of me going to get them, make sure they are right, making sure they are not damaged, and making sure that they are at the site when I need them. Unless you are willing to take time off from work and be the on site manager of all of the materials, then it would actually be in your best interest to let the contractor mark up his material. You may very well be the exception, but the rule and the average of the homeowner providing the material is total chaos. They get the wrong material, get damaged material, or don't have it on site when I need it. Some items I will refuse to let the homeowner provide simply because they would most likely screw up the works. Another thing to consider when I supply the materials, with my markup: Warranty. I provide a full warranty on the materials and installation. If YOU provide the materials, I will only guarantee that the installation is correct. If there is a problem with the product, then it is your problem (labor and materials). It can get quite expensive for you. If the material is defective, then YOU will have to foot the bill for replacement (manufacturer will only cover material and no labor, in most cases)Just food for thought...James DuHamel
*Hey scott,The whole board is "ask a contractor". This is for asking questions of homeowners. Besides, you are so naive its not even funny. Reminds me of a guy I just wasted a saturday afternoon on... Guy calls me and wants me to look at an addition over a garage. I thought it was a strong referall since the guy took the time to get my name from someone I have done work for for many years. I generally try to get a good feel for a project during my initial phone consultation and this one seemed right up my alley. Additionally the schedule and budget were reasonable. So I go out to meet him and eyeball the project. I ask how many bids he's getting and from whom. (This leads me to another post for later...) He says he's already had seven contractors out and no one got back to him! Poor guy's having a bad time with contractors, so I make a note to be extra prompt with keeping up on this one. This makes me suspicious because that is highly unusual unless the guy is a real peckerhead which he doesn't seem to be. Well with regard to the addition, everything is straight forward except that he wants to blow half his budget changing the gable roof over the addition (its already a large porch above a garage)to a hip, which did not fit the remaining architecture of the house. So we go inside and the guy proceeds to show me 15 pages of full scale blueprints ( on DOT drafting paper from where he works, are tax dollars hard at work!) detailing a numerous changes throughout the entire house. I surmised that this is why no one is getting back to him and suggested he narrow the scope to the addition and kitchen remodel. So I prepare and estimate, now I have about 10 hours into the thing and the guy won't return my calls to set up an appointment. What a pecker head. Obviously misrepresenting himself to pick contractors brains for free.So how many of you homeowners think estimates are free? I got a system now where I weed these kind of tirekickers out by making them work for the estimate. If they don't do the work, they don't get the bid. It seems to work for me.Tom
*Scott,I guess I misunderstood. You must be talking about hiring a contractor time and materials, not by the job. I can understand why you feel that if the contract is time and materials, you feel that a low ball labor rate and a suprise material markup is unfair. I agree with you and when I take on work time and materials (rarely) I don't mark up materials, I'll even give the original invoice to the home owner if she wants them. I do however charge a much higher labor rate.However, in defense of contractors that do mark up materials on T&M contracts: It's standard practice in every industry to do this. Auto repair, appliance repair, computer repair, health care, everybody charges the posted hourly rate and then doubles, triples, or even quadruples the price of materials. Do you argue with your garage when they charge you the 29.95 for the timing gear set James was talking about?But, we're off the topic here. I'll throw in a question.Have you ever been put off by a contractor that you thought was too much of a "salesman"?
*WOW! not sure I want to get back in here...I typically charge 20% for materials, add 5% for overages, 10% for my business expense and charge an hourly rate- about $35 an hour. My dad told me a long while ago to figure your time and then double it. I have yet to prove that simple statement wrong.I had an older,much more accomplished carpenter than I tell me that each and every job consists of three elements. Time - cost - quality. The job you get is a result of how you proportion the three.Trust is a huge issue here. Two way street- we trust you to pay us. You trust us to bring your dreams or needs to fruition. You have every right to specify materials and applications- it's part of the equation.Do your homework on who builds a good product and is honest, take your bids from them and don't bust their nuts over what they pay for materials. Everybody has a right to make money and frankly, if you are comfortable with a contractor's work and the price is competitive, it is none of your business how much they pay for material.
*Are you asking me? If so, yes but only if it changes the scope of work. Remember the guy who ripped me off, the DCA complaint? I had actually cut his price because I discovered that the floor in that bath was in much better shape than I had originally thought and that reduced the scope of work.If the scope of work stayed the same and I just busted my back side to get it done faster than expected, I won't return anything to the home owner.
*I think Doug has a good point, "It's none of your business how much they charge for materials." I don't mean it rudely but it's true.This is why I don't break down my quotes to show anything other than a bottom line price. All other breakdowns are useful to the home owner for only two reasons. 1) to beat you up on price and 2) to make themselves upset later that you would have the audacity to mark up materials (because we all know that no other business does this).
*I try to look at it as simply as possible. It costs a certain amount to run a business. Whether you charge a percentage on materials or add it all in your labor or break it down in a dozen other ways its all a shell game. All of these things even out in the end. If I am charging a lot more than others for the same job one of two things will happen, either I will get these jobs because I am worth more or I will lose jobs and go broke. I personally just add it all in the labor figure and then add labor and materials together and multiply by my profit percentage. I arange for all of the materials that will be needed for a job. I used to let people provide their own materials but it just doesnt ever seem to work out.
*Man, you guys are a piece of work. You assume what ever the H you want about homeowners then tack on a 'pecker head' for good measure. I was trying not to respond, but now my goats up too.Just for the record, my last year's big renovation project was budgeted well over $60,000, and that's just for building structure, not all the fixings and trimmings. The contractor gave me a set price which is what I asked for. He set the price based on what he thought he could do it for. It was well over the cost that I had estimated, but I trusted his evaluation and took it. Things worked out fine, he did good work and I'm looking forward to hiring him again for this year's renovating. There was no break down of materials and labour, and I never questioned him on what if any markup he used. I wanted one price and that's what he gave me. After all was said and done, there was one un-expected cost (detail of the contract wording) which we agreed to split. I did what work I was able and stayed out of his way on the rest. It's not in my interest to talk him into a money losing venture, because I expect to be working with him for many more years. What I designed and built I could afford to do because I was able to do my own legwork, reading and research. And to my credit I now know every detail and purpose of each and every piece of my home from the foundation to the roof. And I also know how much work is required to see the process from start to finish. Or did you guys just magically wake up one day with the knowlege to build and that puts you in a position to look down on us lowly homeowners?You guys see crappy DIY work and assume the world is full of pea headed homeowners trying to do the professional's job or chince every last nickle and penny to save a buck. And that's ALL YOU'RE EVER GOING TO SEE. No one is going to look you up in the book call you over and say "Hey look at the great job of this hardwood floor. I did it myself". Your view of the world is slanted by the very nature of your work. Why do you think the big mega home stores are doing so well? Because their customers like to keep calling builders to fix their mistakes?Tommy B - "The whole board is "ask a contractor". This is for asking questions of homeowners. Besides, you are so naive its not even funny. Reminds me of a guy I just wasted a saturday afternoon on..."Excuse me? The whole "board" is Taunton's Fine Homebuilding. You know, that magazine on the shelf targetted to thousands of people. Builder's, homeowners, people killing time in airports... If Taunton relied on the sale of it's magazine to contractors only, there wouldn't BE a "board" to claim as your own in the first place. This isn't a private club. It's the Internet man! This "board" is wide open to millions of people who have far less interest in building than you or I. Reread your opening post "This here is a place where we contractor types can come for advice from homeowners. Only homeowners please respond!". Well, you asked for it, you got it. Don't rake ME over the coals for it if you don't like it.Jeff, sorry you feel the way you do. I guess I mis-interpretted your post:"Email me and I will give you a direct toll-free # where you can fax me a rough drawing of exactly what your situation is. The situation you describe could pump a little life into this thread if we can get some conversation going."I guess that I should have interpretted that as: "Email and I'll throw it back in your face and call you a brain sucking moron".You offered. For all I know you may very well be an old woman holed up in an appartment with 29 cats who likes to play contractor on the internet. For all YOU know I may be the old woman next door doing the same thing. I guess you must of magically woken up with all the knowledge of building in your head one day too huh?You guys give the most insightful advice to starting homeowners "Call a proffessional and talk it over with him, they'll be glad to help". Then you turn around and crap on homeowners for being nothing but cheap sponges looking for yet another freebee piece of advice and nowhere leading quote. Guess what, this board IS the freebee and I for one am glad it exists. Every dumb question asked and answered here is one less dumb question another "professional" is going to have answer with a house call elsewhere.BTW, I do my own car repairs as well (mostly 70's models, so they're relatively easy to work on). I've never had a mechanic give me flak about being a "weekend mechanic" and screwing them out of what's due. Apples and Oranges.I've said my peace. I appologize for filling up so much space in the thread.
*Martin and AnD,It's a tough call, but not really. I have to go with the guy who can do the work no matter how he looks (up to a point). Yeah, looks mean something to some folks, but the first person they see is me. I ain't much to look at, but at least I'm clean, and I do know what I'm doing and that shows through. Fusco calls me a Bozo here, but everybody else here knows better. I have had builders in the past (we usually just sub for general contractors) tell me they would prefer so-and-so or this guy as opposed to that guy from our crews, but they always call us back for more work. I'm sorry.........skill is what I hire. I do try to make a point that the guys should make a good appearence. I don't allow shorts at work because I don't think that is professional attire for work. No smoking around the customers, no loud music around the customers and a clean work place is a must. When you hire as many employees as we have, you have to judge skill over anything else. Ed. Williams
*Sorry to hurt your feelings by criticising your attitude concerning contractors marking up materials by "10%".How "unsocialistic and captalistic of me".BTW: I am interested in how you made the money to go "$60,000" over cost on your last project(home?)What do you make per year at your job? What exactly is it that you do?Let us know. We might want to draw a comparison between values.
*So Scott,No that you've got that off your chest, what's the verdict. You asked why we would mark up materials. Are we still in the wrong for doing this? Are we all crooks? Is the world conspiring against you?
*"And I know how much work is required to see the process from start to finish". Really? Each and every piece, each and every time? Each and every situation? Wow. Please, tell ME then. You see, I've only been remodeling off and on for twenty years starting as a preteen helping out the old man. On top of that on site experience, I have an Associates Degree in Carp./Const. Technology. And I still can't see into the future each and every time %100 correctly. So as the Master Carpenter you've become, please help me to learn how much work is required to see the process from start to finish. I even sub out the stuff that's outside my realm, so I'll need to know all facets of all trades/specialities too. Thanks for imparting your wisdom. I think I may have figured out why you have had problems with contractors in the past, and I feel sorry for the guy that's comming back to finish your project. Jeff J. Buck.
*Scott,I am glad you have enjoyed such success working on your vintage 70's cars.I am equally glad that professional mechanics don't give you grief about being a driveway mechanic.Perhaps(just perhaps)you get along with auto mechanics because you never implied that auto mechanics are dishonest for marking up the oil,sparkplugs,and fan belts.It might interest you to know that a year or two ago this board was a pretty vibrant place. Most of the posters were professionals swapping tips,asking questions,and B.S.ing with their peers,taking time out to answer the occasional DIY question.In the last few months it seems this board has begun to slowly collapse from the weight of DIY types wanting to know the best grass seed,which caulk to use,Oil vs. latex paint,etc.And despite answering questions on this minutae,the professionals here are subjected to insults from SOME of the DIY crowd who complain that contractors are taking advantage of them.I know you feel this board would be lost with out your type,but the reality is it got along quite well for along time.The currrently developing attitude that people can come here,slam a contractor,and STILL get free advice will eventually ruin this board for the honest,repectfull folks who ask and answer question here.You can't have it both ways-----You can't grossly insult the contractors here AND expect them to toss you freebies.Most of the PRO's here bend over backwards to answer even the dumbest questions,but they will not do that and cheerfully accept insults.Good Luck All,Stephen
*Amen.
*Geesh, ed. ... you're almost as thin skined as me,, but if Fuscoe called me a bozo, i'd feel flattered , in New York it's practically a term of endearment... i mean think what he cudda called you...how ya doin? havin a good Spring?
*
Wow.
Before I supply my 2 cents, let me state that I am not a professional contractor. I guess that puts me in the DIY classification.
I've only seen the entries in this thread from 3/18, so I don't really know what set Scott off, but I'm going to stick my nose in anyway.
Scott: You must agree that spark plugs that are of warranted quality and would be replaced in your engine and tested by the parts store selling them are of greater value (and worth greater cost) than similar plugs that you would need to remove, return to store for replacement, and reinstall if they were defective or of the wrong type. So it is with marked up contractor item pricing. They select it, deliver it, replace it if defective, make sure that it integrates well with surroundings.... There is value in that worth paying for. You can't compare an item sitting on the shelf at home depot to (even the exact same) item delivered, and of guaranteed quality. Maybe you'd feel better if the contractors didn't take the shortcut of marking up prices but instead charged separately for the additional services of delivery, inspection, labor warranty, etc of these items.
Stephen: I've been lurking here and reading your posts for about a year. I would never deign to insult you or otherwise question your professionalism. And I likewise have a high opinion of the vast majority of those who post here. This board can function, and thrive, with no participation from homeowners and DIY types at all. Although I'm not a professional, I like the professional focus and don't want it to change. It is sometimes helpful to get the perspective from the other side of the fence, however. But name calling isn't going to further understanding or help anyone. So I agree with you that insults and contractor slamming don't belong here.
Jeff: This is a nit, but I think Scott's project was over $60K total, not $60K over budget. This thread reminds me the old "scratch and dent" thread.
Contractors in general: There is a great untapped market of homeowners that need your services but are fearful and untrusting. They don't know how to properly engage you. Note the recent thread "Smart Money" magazine article on homebuilders in the Business Folder. This is the kind of education that your customers are getting. You can tap this market if you do a better job of communicating and explaining the value you add. There is friction at the interface. This is a particular problem when there is little understanding and trust between contractor and homeowner.
All: It is dangerous to generalize about the characteristics of contractors, or homeowners for that matter. And truth be known, I really am a 90 year old woman with 29 cats. How did Scott know that!
--jim x 3
*
Hey, English is a "living language." Kinda like "American cuisine."
*Trip Jim,I hope you live well past 100.
* Jim, jim,jim-Three sides to every story- Your's, mine, cold hard truth..Well spoken my friend, well spoken.
*
Man there is so much input on this topic that it goes to show that opininions are like pooty-holes or something like that. One thing I like about this forum is that, if you lay aside your ego, you learn. Some of the things that Kai bruoght up remind me of several of my own (why-for's). For example, why are the unforseens in remodels so difficult to understand when the same type of problem could happen to an auto, or a surgery,(god forbid). It is essentially the same set of rules. The mechanic, or doctor, or builder estimates to his best ability to fix whatever ails the clients truck, house, or funny bone based on a thourough preliminary investigation of the problem at hand. Whatever happens after opening up whatever seems to always be a nuisance to myself and every other reputable builder I personally know. As far as mechanics and doctors, I haven't the slightest idea, but it would be interesting to here how they remedy such problems. One other topic I would like to respond to is that I here about all this online bickering on this sight and I have to say that other than weeding through disgruntled comments, a lot of you fellow builders have given myself plenty to think about and plenty of valuable advice. I am reminded of one of my greatest mentors in life, my college wrestling and football coach. He used to say "if you want to be a champion you must seek out the toughest competition available", "you must also study the great's in the sport and find out what makes them great". "If you have bad match or game don't pout but instead study your mistakes." I know there are those who say what the heck's that got to with remodeling? Well this is another way for me to study the competition on a different game. For those of you who put in heart thought information, and questions that were earned through blood sweat and tears, I appreciate the crap out of it!
*
The FTC did a study of auto mechanics a few years ago, one of the few groups that draw more consumer complaints than contractors (car dealerships are the other one). It found that where there were problems with auto repairs, it was much more often the result of incompetence than thievery, for whatever comfort that may provide!
What's different with homebuilding, of course, it the consumer doesn't just say "fix it"; they have some conception of what they want, or sometimes of just what they want to feel like when it's done.
*Of course, auto repair, auto sales, and home builders and repairers...big ticket items that a lot of consumers do not understand. Result: consumeri thinksthey were ripped when they weren'ti andconsumer was in fact ripped (it'si so easy!).Rich Beckman
*When this thread started I predicted it would end up much like it has, a debate over customer relations. What so many folks don't quite understand is that customer relations is just as important as doing the building job right. The folks who are the most successful and happy in their chosen profession are those that put being good at what they do and educating/getting along with the homeowner on equal priority.By and large homeowners don't know very much about building. What they do know is that the contractor is spending large amounts of their money for them. Add in a large dollop of fear and distrust from what the few bad contractors have done; or are reported to have done, and the situation is ripe for all kinds of problems.If you educate your customer, protect yourself from the bad customer, treat the customer as an equal human being, and do a good technical job you will do well I think.Too often we confuse "knowledge" and "intelligence". Take advantage of the intelligence to add some knowledge. The end result will be a happier customer, easier working relations, and more money in the bank account at the end of the year.
*It seems like the American Arbitration Association and the arbitration council of the BBB did a study and found that most construction industry disputes can be attributed to "vague, unclear or poor communication between contractor and client"
*I don't understand this idea that our customers aren't knowledgable...Most of mine are...And most, if not all of my customers are more like friends that I am respectfully doing my best to look out for their best interests...I try not to spend their money foolishly and have even stopped working for a couple that seemed to have me do too many additional projects and or unneccesary work...And mark up...Well, I sell a product and or service for a price...b The price depends on the market more than anything else...That's something that is always missed in most of the discussions about costs...What I make is the difference between expenses and income...which there are a million factors including my efficencies and if the customer pays his bill in full...Most of you know that I now do mostly specialty contracting including seasonally tennis courts, docks, painting and just a little residential construction....One of the best things about being a specialist is setting up exact prices, putting together a price book, selling in seconds from it, doing the job, making a known profit, and collecting b in fullthe cost of the completed project,b at completion...What a difference this has made b in all ways...I feel that when the carpentry/contractor world finally matures to a modern business model, that it will be run this way too...The same as going to the grocery store...We don't buy milk for a negotiated price...and all the other "what ifs" and fears that still exist in our beloved choice of work...So here's a sloggan...b Market quality products, timely and safely & manage expenses to maximise profits...b Systemise!...a price book is a great first step!Just some of my thoughts, near the stream,aj
*AJ:Well you are lucky to have such a group of customers. My experience is that most contractors aren't so lucky and that most of my non-building friends really don't know very much about building. They know a lot about whatever they do to put bread on the table but have big gaps elsewhere; just like people in every profession.Please don't try to put words in my mouth, or post. I didn't say any contractor was spending the homeowner's money foolishly. What I said was that the contractor is spending a lot of the customer's money. The two are not the same. I won't accuse you of a Freudian Slip there. I just wanted to be sure no one misunderstood what I was saying:"What they do know is that the contractor is spending large amounts of their money for them. Add in a large dollop of fear and distrust from what the few bad contractors have done; or are reported to have done, and the situation is ripe for all kinds of problems."I think trying to model your business after a retail store is great to try. It may even work for you. I encourage everyone to try different business models to see what works for them and their customers. What is important is not the model: It is the understanding that you are running a business first and doing the trade second.
*Fred, this is what always happens with these kinds of threads. It becomes a debate, with contractors arguing about why customers don't think and feel the way contractors want them to or think they should. It always misses the point.Consumer Goods companies spend a fortune on marketing, focus groups, consumer interest and reaction. They do this because if they don't meet the consumers expectations or tastes or needs, the consumers don't buy their product and they don't get the money. You never hear about Proctor and Gamble arguing that consumers ought to be happy to wear dingy clothing and buy their poor-working detergent, right? You want to sell products and services to consumers, then listen to what they have to say and incorporate it into your business. SHG
*Fred...thanks for the post...more on the price book and "on the shelf, ready for sale" business model...Fear, almost teh opposite of trust. Fear is mostly to do with the unknown...A price book, specialising and systemising all dramatically reduce and or eliminate fear of the unknown...because there is no unknown...And specialising makes all more confident, more skilled more able to show past results, more able to price without including extras for unknowns...It makes the contractors business much more efficient and profitable and reputable and on and on...And it makes the customers job of decision making super easy...they choose tennis court A for $22,000, and U shape dock D for $16,000 and get to see a finished almost exact project to make their final custom decisions from...It's win win for everyone...even the crew who because they are repeating a specialty, they are payed twice as much in far less training time, their esteem and pride can be very high, It makes it so much easier to create an atmosphere of fun on the jobsite...You get so fast at your work that you actually can work normal hours and take off early an Friday like the few others that know life is more than working seven days a week...I firmly believe in...Systemising and specialising...near the stream,aj
*SHG...I haven't said any of what you are referring to if I understand your post....The customer is b the customer with us...and their needs, are, and what I am able to offer, are; where we start, go and finish with...And the more I systemise, package and pre-price, the smoother the sailing is becoming...near the stream,aj
*Jack, you're the lucky guy who has more knowledgable customers. If you can eliminate that part from the process, you have a big leg up. People come here from all over, and there are a lot of people who are working under very different circumstances. They don't know the potential customers, and the customers don't know them. The area is highly competitive, and there are plenty of scoundrels out there trying to rip them off. And help is hard to find, and shit happens. If the problem isn't one you have to confront, than life it great. I think the thing here is for those contractors who want to know what it is that customers want that they're not giving them, or else they'd be making money hand over fist like Fusco. My point is, if that's your situation (and obviously it's not your, Jack), don't argue with the customer. Learn from him. SHG
*AJ, I think you are entirely correct about specializing. I have tried to point out its benefits here from time to time,because it has worked wonders for me.Back in the days when I did a little bit of everything I might repair a roof monday,install windows tuesday,Build basement steps weds.,replace a porch floor thurs.,etc.I could do a competent job at each task but I did not make much money that way.Specializing in roofing made a huge difference for me(and I could just as easily have chosen to specialize in windows and doors or just about anything)Once I had a specialty and confined myself to that area,estimating became a snap,and selling was much easier.I would love to have a price book but I don't think it is quite practical for me.For you,though ,I think it is an act of genius.It implies to the customer that this is the proper price for the dock,or tennis court and that many other people have already paid the same price for identical product.I think that the prospect would be much less likely to fear that you were just pulling a price out of your butt and trying to rip them off.It positions you as the expert supplier of a valuable commodity.If I could use a price book in my business I would do so in an instant..The simpler I keep the whole process,the simpler it is for the prospect to say "YES"Good Luck All Stephen
*Stephen...I'm glad somebody here understands the absolute simplicity and beauty of the concept of prepriced products on the shelf and ready for sale...It is an amazing idea and I am still amazed that it isn't becoming the norm yet...You made a great business decision when you decided to be a roofing specialist...By the way roofing is one of my specialties that I also found to be very profitable, with an endless customer supply that is so easy to spot, etc...The only draw backs are the risks...Falling...the heavy weights, the bending over, the abuse of ankles..etc...I now have discovered fencing...no heights...no leaky roofs, no heavy work or tired feet and ankles...usually work on level ground in decent working conditions..a pool might even be nearby to jump into...so, I'm changing again...Lakeside Fence and Tennis...near the stream,aj
*Homeowner question here -- If you're working time and materials, what do you do if you charge the materials directly to the customer's account at the local building center? And just out of curiosity, what is considered "materials"? Does this include your pencils, string, chalk, chalk holders? Aren't materials the lumber/nails/glue etc that comprise the finished product? I would think your markup would (should) cover the incidentals/overhead (such as pencils, tools, saw blades). Hope this doesn't sound too nitpicking .... Tina
*Contractor answer here: You're getting a bit nitpicky. This should have be covered in your agreement up front. As for what is expected is wide open, but should be fair to both parties, strore room supplies are over the edge but comsumables like paper to cover completed floors is expected, saw blades are too - within reason.I think you should have the purchases go through your contractors account, and in turn be billed to you pending approval etc.., and this would eliminate the pettiness of some items. I would feel pretty sheepish billing you for pencils, but in defenese of whomever, some are used, tools however go over the edge. Tell them to leave the tools there when they are done and to get your approval prior to purchasing such items. I would think a timely conversation would be best and establish the rules asap. Just think it through and tolerate a little, but weigh it against the benefits. I don't suppose they did something for you and didn't bill it did they. You don't want to tick them off either or else "good enough" has a whole new meaning.But if they are milking it, wean them off, NOW.Q. Did you get your shelves built yet?
*Depends on what your agreement was. I typically bill for materials and consumables. That's 2x4's and saw blades, drill bits, etc. All the stuff I've bought at my lumber yard. I do not bill for the tools I use or have to buy to do the job. They'll stay with me at the end.As for pencils. They're certainly consumable but I'd never be that petty. Besides, the lumberyard gives them to me for free.
*Thanks for the feedback. The situation as described is history, so it was mostly theoretical. We know better now, anyway.Shelves are in planning. Busy now milling juniper for our counter tops -- first layout looks great. Shelves will go on an 11-1/2-foot wall, 11-foot ceiling height, with an elk head mount in center. We plan to put some sort of chests/cabinets along the length about 34 inches high, then wind those shelves up, around and under Mr. Elk. Can't wait to get 'em up!Tina
*
This here is a place where we contractor types can come for advice from homeowners. Only homeowners please respond!
*ok...
*I'll go first. How do you choose a contractor?How many bids would you like to see?Describe the appearance and personality attributes that you would perceive a good craftsman/contractor to have.Where the heck do you hide your beer?Tom
*How do you choose a contractor? If I had my druthers, it would be someone I'd worked with before, or recommended by a friend. But, if I have to "discover" this person, I turn first to forums like this--ok, just this one (before the internet, it would have been hunt and peck in the yellow pages)--then cold calling and "measuring" such things as: * do they answer the phone in a reasonable time (4-8 rings)* is the phone person polite* does someone return my call within a day* do they have a web site with photos* is their license valid* any complaint history w/the BBB* do they have a portfolio with up-to-date phone numbers of satisfied customersAssuming I get a call, and an appointment, it is really imperative that they show up on time or call to cancel.How many bids would you like to see? Three.Describe the appearance and personality attributes that you would perceive a good craftsman/contractor to have.Appearance: Clean and neat if at the start of the work day; otherwise, at least not smelling bad or with muddy shoes! Personality: Attentive to my questions, polite, businesslike, does not trample my garden or make disparaging remarks about my cat, the premises, etc., with a promise (that is kept) to get back to me (on such and such a day) with a quote. Where the heck do you hide your beer? I wouldn't presume to offer it without offering non-alcoholic drinks as well :)HTH,kai
*All right, I got one.So, you get your three bids, which one do you choose? What are you looking for in a bid? What sells you that this contractor is the one to do the work? And finally, if you've checked the contractors out as thoroughly as you said you would, why get three bids? Don't tell me that Oprah told you too :)
*Good questions Ryan! OK, I will choose one of the three (just an arbitrary number that I like--but don't be dissin my Oprah!), if I even get three (I got only one for my roof, btw, and am quite pleased, as are a couple others to whom I referred them, but a couple others didn't go w/him because he didn't return their calls fast enough), based on, roughly, the following:* they returned my call promptly, scheduled an appointment within my timeframe, and showed up as planned* answered my questions w/out implying I am stupid to ask them* they were knowledgable about current materials, techniques, code, etc. (yes, I have to do quite a bit of research to be able to ask intelligent questions)* they provided me an itemized written bid that encompassed every aspect we had discussed, and, subsequently, answered my questions about it(BTW, when I was in the patch-mode for this roof some years ago, NONE of my advice worked--respected personal referral, prompt, great list of satisfied customers. The guy was crazy--probably having many personal problems.)I learned the hard way that the BBB (if you can ever get them to answer their phones) or any other number of resources doesn't always tell the whole story, so I like to see how the "lead" man interacts with me, the homeowner. And if I have, say, three bids from which to choose, I can see which is charging more/less for the materials, labor, and compare the time estimates, etc. The total cost is no longer a major factor in my decisions (i.e., I might go w/the highest bidder), but the deciding moment usually comes down to the "flake factor"--if the contractors give comparable bids, and their references check out, I will almost always go with the one who presents the most professional (but not stuffy!) concern for my individual needs. I do not care for arrogance, but definitely appreciate someone who can tell me my choices might be wrong--providing they tell me why, and guide me to a source that will confirm it.And, an answer to a question you didn't pose, is that (having worked in the trades myself) I know there is a bigtime chance that once you do tearout, you may see an unknown problem that will boost the cost. When the lead man calls and says "My guys found worse damage than we expected, and I'll be happy to stop work until you inspect (like I'm gonna go up on my roof! NOT) and concur and authorize additional charges" I am pleased to be kept in the loop. However, what is even better, is that a contractor will do so, but say, "Since I gave you a written estimate, I am sticking by it because my word is good." That contractor will always get referrals from me. My roofer, for example, explained that his cost per square foot for my tiny home was more than if I had a larger one, because of just such things (which did occur).Oh, one other thing: if the neighborhood is somehow disrupted needlessly, debris is not immediately (or as scheduled) removed, or my plants are trampled, that company is on my $#!+ list and I will tell the world. OTOH, I always send complimentary letters or make a phone call when things go smoothly.HTH
*How many bids would you like to see? Three bids, so that I have some idea as to whether the bid price(I) are at least reasonable, compared one to the other. I don't necessarily take the lowest bid, either. A lot depends on my impressions of the person bidding the work. Describe the appearance and personality attributes that you would perceive a good craftsman/contractor to have. I just finished letting work for masonry and driveway paving to a person who spent a lot of time making sure that he really understood the job. He visited the property several times, asked more questions than all the others put together. Personal appearance and personality weren't the main area of interest for me: I wanted someone that I thought I could work with (I provided some of the labor), and who would absolutely not "talk down" to me. Some contractors like to demonstrate their superior knowledge of their craft in a belittling way, assuming that the homeowner home owner very un-knowledgable, or pretty stupid. Those contractors get their work somewhere other than at my home!!I also recently let a job for building a new garage: foundation, walls, roof, slab (I'm doing the finishing). I did not get three bids on this, but I got a very strong recommendation from my architect, which has turned out to be a brilliant choice. The man and his team have been very thorough, and pretty careful of the rest of the property.In summary, the contractor needs to demonstrate an interest in the job, a willingness to work with the homeowner,home ownererences. A broad range of appearances and personalities would be OK.Where the heck do you hide your beer? I don't permit alcohol on the job site.
*What I appreciate most in a contractor is one who actually listens to what you want. This may sound absurd but out of the many who worked on my house only a few did this. Most of them either A: did stuff the way that was fastest and easiest or B: did stuff the way THEY thought it should be done without consulting with me. Then I bitched at them til they did it right: unpleasant for both parties.Example: I hired a mason who complemented me on the detailed plans I gave him, which were very specific on locations and dimensions. First day on the job he built the base for my fireplace/heater to other than the specified dimensions. When I pointed this out to him he told me that "you don't need something that big." Well, I told him, thats what the person who is making the heater wants, you need to do it. After correcting that, he proceeded to build the chimney off center in the house. "Hey, this thing is off center!" he said. Well, thats not good, I told him. "What should I do about it?" he asked. Uhhhhh....fix it? I sent him on his way after that. What a surprise, when they came to install the heater, there was a block wall dead centered on the spot where the ash drop was shown on the drawings. Needless to say I think he brought his own beer.
*Here's a question......I've know some gifted carpenters that didn't make the best impression. Will I be faulted because someone on my crew doesn't live up to some "professional appearance" rule? Even if they can do the job quickly and perfect the first time? Bob Chapman seems to get it, but I wonder sometimes about the public at large. Also, I'd prefer that you don't offer us anything to eat or drink (alcohol is not appreciated). We don't want to be your buddy, we just want to do our job and go on to the next one. We want to make our time at your house as painless and unobtrusive as possible.Ed. Williams
*Interesting insight. Kai, would you clarify something for me. You are saying you would rather pay for hidden conditions up front, that may not be there. But if they are uncovered during the course of the job, you would be more inclined to give a good reference if the GC eats the cost?Or would you want the guy to to say, we may run into A,B, or C on this type of job and if we do we will be looking at an extra cost. Or there may be something that is totally unforseen ( a former remodel botched and hidden or a plumber or HVAC guy with a sawsall:) At this time according to our contract we would both agree to a remedy and a price and go from there
*Interesting insight...you would rather pay for hidden conditions up front, that may not be there. But if they are uncovered during the course of the job, you would be more inclined to give a good reference if the GC eats the cost? No. Points off for not paying attention and needless sarcasm. And there is nothing even vaguely interesting or insightful about the facts--it has to do with integrity. I accepted the bid/cost because I trusted the contractor, and, duh, have a tiny house that doesn’t give this contractor a huge profit. I accepted that I had to pay more per square foot (which, as it turned out, cost him, supposedly, not me). It’s a frickin penalty poor people (those without huge houses) pay. OK? Yeah, I didn't think so.Or would you want the guy to to say, we may run into A,B, or C on this type of job and if we do we will be looking at an extra cost. Or there may be something that is totally unforseen ( a former remodel botched and hidden or a plumber or HVAC guy with a sawsall:) At this time according to our contract we would both agree to a remedy and a price and go from thereI see no problem with that. ITA. And that is exactly what happened. Just what is your beef? Both the contractor and I were satisfied with the job.Sorry, perhaps I just don't get the intent of your questions. The only problems I've ever had was with one "contractor" (NOT--he faked it) who stole from me--billed me for (50%) materials he didn't use on my job--oops, this belongs in the Preachers Lie thread.You're probably a very nice person, but it doesn't come across in writing. I really hope I'm mistaken about that, and I will be the first to apologize if that is the case. If not, I hope you will take this offline so as not to disrupt this forum. I wish you had a private addy so I didn't have to take this public.Best wishes, and please let me know which questions I didn't answer to your satisfaction.
*I would like a little clarification on your previous post. You are aware that there are often unforseen problems that occur during construction projects but you would recommend a guy who either fixes these problems for free, or pads his estimate up front over a guy that notifies you that it will cost a little more because of these unforseen problems. To equate not keeping your word with charging extra for additional work seems quite a stretch. You might want to remember why they are called estimates. I am a contractor as well as a homeowner and I couldnt imagine expecting some one to eat the cost of unforseen problems.
*Kai:I'm alittle confused now too.My contract says that If there are unforseen conditions that change the agreed upon scope of work, the price will change. I discuss all the likely unforseen conditions ahead of time but also make it clear that I really don't know what I'll find once I open up the walls.Here's an example: I'm asked to bid on fixing a "soft" floor in a small bath. The crawlspace is inaccessable so I'm forced to guess what I'll find. What would you prefer:* I price replacing the subfloor and tell you that if the joists are also damaged it will cost more. (I have very little risk and you will ultimately pay for exactly the amount of work that I do)* I price to replace the subfloor and add some extra in the price because I know I might have to replace joists also. If I don't, I get a big bonus off of the job)*I price only the subfloor but am expected to repair whatever I find at the original price including joists, sinking foundations, jacking the house, etc.)
*I thought it would be interesting to see how this develops. I apologize for the where do you keep the beer comment. I agree wholeheartedly with Ed's take on food and drink on the job. I was trying to project some humor into the dialogue. I really try to have fun doing my work and try to project that on my jobs, something I wonder if is appreciated. As to the food issue, I bring everything I need for the job including nourishment, sometimes its hard to be polite and turn down the hazlenut-macadamia coffee and juniper berry yak cheese danish.Kai, you offer some good insights and I try to (mostly) be the guy you describe. I can tell you this though, the thank you letters for a job well done are really appreciated when we receive them. I keep them in my portfolio and they really help to sell customers on me. I have to say that it sounds like your coming down pretty hard on Barry. A good point someone made is that a lot of contractor's are homeowners too. I get good and bad work on my own house, but I think I generally get what I expected. I think a good perspective is that I don't expect perfection out of anyone all the time the first time. I also understand what it takes financially and otherwise to run a business that is capable or doing a good job of backing up a bad one. That is what I expect to pay for. Keep the lines of communication open.Tom
*Whatever kai actually meant, here goes...Maybe helpful, maybe not, here is contract law's approach: Say a contractor and builder agree to excavate a commercial foundation for a price the contractor bases on core samples he took from the site. Work commences, and surprise there's boulder-from-hell right among the core samples, a clean miss. There's no question that dynamiting the boulder (or whatever they do) is a costly problem unforeseen by both parties.Who pays? The court will ask whether the contractor's site study was reasonably thorough and competent, usually by reference to the prevailing industry practice. If the contractor's study was negligent (unreasonably careless), he loses; the builder was entitled to assume she was picking a low bidder whose bid was intelligently based on the work that actually needed to be done. If the study was not negligent, the builder pays for the unforeseen hitch -- the parties' expectations have been met.Basically the same for building/remodeling, subject to whatever requirements added by federal/state law, local ordinance, or weirdo legal twists specific to certain fields.Sorry for any first-year flashbacks this gives to any attorneys out there. :(Personally, I'd rather get or give an estimate that covers the usual extra hassles, subject to the proviso that ordinarily unforeseeable problems may pop up and have to be dealt with at respectable T&M rates. If you pull up the floor and hordes of carpenter ants emerge to devour your helper, there's going to be an upcharge. Then there are all the problems you stumble across when you open something that, yes, you could cover up and pretend you didn't see, but really you ought to get fixed while you're in there, like the nutty Rube Goldberg wiring left by a previous homeowner... Sigh.
*Kai, Sorry if you took my comments wrong. There really was no attempt at scarcasm. Maybe I should have clarified, when I said "interesting insight" it was to this thread as a whole, and not to you in particular. I thought Tommy came up with an interesting question, and I am always interested on where my clients p.o.v.i However, what is even better, is that a contractor will do so, but i say, "Since I gave you a written estimate, I am sticking by it because i my word is good." That contractor will always get referrals from me.It seems here you are saying that even if you find extra work, I would like you to stick to your contract.i My roofer, for example, explained that his cost per square foot i for my tiny home was more than if I had a larger one, because of just i such things (which did occur). Here it seemed you were saying that the roofer said, "certain things may occur, so the cost will be higher."I have many satisfied, repeat clients. Maybe it't because I don't communicate with them by e-mail :)I think that if you click on my name it shows my e-mail address. Sorry for the confusion, Barry
*FWIW, I give a spread bid on jobs. From-To. Convince them T+M is the way to go. If no problem, the low price, if what I might expect to show up, the higher price. This has worked fairly for them and me. And it also allows for those "couldya's" you homeowners seem to add to the job. Use a hand shake too. Since it's all referrals, have not had one bad experience. Just lucky I guess. Straight talk, show up and do a good job. Don't lose the cat and don't trample those rose bushes. No oil in the drive. All common sense stuff for at least people with a semblance of a brain. Can't understand how anyone can do it any different. Don't understand the suspicious customer either. They come into the negotiations with a chip on their shoulder I didn't put there. Try to shy away from those folks. Didn't ask for it, but that's my take on it. Have a wonderful weekend.
*I'm with hotsawdust on the "listening". I don't care about muddy shoes. More important is integrity and remembering that what's best for the customer/homeowner is ultimately best for the contractor.I think most of the problems (and there were many) that we had with our first contractor was lip service. We presented detailed plans and materials lists and got a house that resembled neither. Unfortunately, how do you know if a contractor listens (and ASKS QUESTIONS WHEN IN DOUBT) until after he's started working for you? I'd ask for list of ALL projects in last year or 6months (not just the ones he wants to use as referral)...but how do you get those? And then contact those homeowners. I'd give extra points to any contractor who offers referral on a job where there were problems that he admits to up front and explains how/what he did to work them out.Can't imagine a contract that could cover unknowns up front.And all this discussion assumes you're in a market where there are many contractors to choose from!Bottom line from this homeowner? I'm willing to pay good money for contractor who's first priority is building what I want how I want it (or explaining why that may be impossible and working out alternatives with me BEFORE proceeding) -- not someone who smiles and says yes ma'am whatever you want...and then builds what he wants the way he wants (or the only way he knows how)!Gee...am I possibly venting a wee bit here???? But how can all the bids in the world and the best written contract tell you which one will do the above -- other than talking to previous customers?
*I'm sorry to hear your disappointment, Tina. Is it mostly done?It's a foolish homeowner who lets the contract on price alone.To find a "contractor who listens" I'd like to have them knock off a smaller project for me or a client first, without letting on that there are larger plans on the horizon. That is, give them a real job -- more complex than a doghouse -- before broaching "the big one." If it works it's kind of a nice way to kick off a potentially complex relationship.I can't imagine diving into building an entire house with someone I had no existing work relationship. I'd be pleased to have the two carpenters back who installed our pair of bay windows -- they were professional, fast, talented, and took/offered advice just fine. They were pretty expensive, too -- if calculated by the hour --- they just didn't need very many of them! In a casual day-and-a-half, they installed both 6-foot bays with hip roofs and 2-foot boxed skirts cantilevered in existing double-hung rough openings; incl. demo'd, framed, inspected, sheathed and trimmed. The bays were premulled with head- and seatboards, but I still think that's pretty good. Actually, I would have saved money if I'd had them do the assembly instead of the factory -- oh well.Distant second best would be to find a former client of theirs who was willing to talk and seemed like-minded. A lot of homeowners aren't critical enough (talk about how wonderful their house is up until the roof falls in) or are too critical (my God! they left a drop of latex on the SINK! ... been there, done that).I'm torn -- I'd like to build a house someday ... and the idea scares the heck out of me. The only people who go in blind and come out happy are the lucky ones and those for whom checkwriting is effortless -- e.g., some of the clients on "This Old House."
*Here's Tom Silva's view. Whatever you think of the TOH enterprise, he seems like a decent and talented contractor.
*Super thread! Among my pet peeves about what hurts the building industry the most are contractors who use the word "homeowner" to mean a person who is dumb, trying to cheat the contractor, and generally is to be only tolerated.In fact, the homeowner may lack knowledge but generally is far from dumb and just wants a fair, no call-back job at a fair price, and is The Boss. Face it contractors ask homeowners to authorize expensive work whose extent is largely out of their control and thus makes the homeowner nervous. Communication is just as important as using the tools.As has been pointed out above most contractors are also homeowners. I think contractors ought to ask themselves: "How would I like to be treated?" Then treat customers even better.I've had folks give me bids and agree on a job only to then ignore the plans, damage the surrounding site and want to charge for repairs, etc. I've also had concientious, skilled, pleasant to work with folks who stumbled into a problem that we worked out together and who had crews that at least looked human(yes, I do penalize any business whose employees don't at least look like people and are able to find their way to the porta-potty. After all, if the boss will tolerate that what else is he tolerating?)In short, whether I'm doing the job, or hiring the job I want to be treated as a person, not a checkbook or a hammer.
*Why do people create new definitions for words? *I've been told that for something to be racist, it must involve an institution.*I've heard that the american indian word "squaw" is derogatory.*Some colleges have even done away with the word "freshmen" because that word excludes women.Now "homeowner" means "dumb, trying to cheat the contractor, and generally is to be only tolerated"I've got to get a new dictionary.
*What Andrew said :)
*Sorry, Barry, and whomever else I've insulted. I think Andrew explained it best. (Also, there was no e-mail listing when I posted! There is now.) Agree about the e-mail thing. In my case, the contractor called and said it will take x more dollars to do your job, over the estimate, based on what we found. I said fine. Turns out, however, that it took longer than he estimated (or so he said), so that is where he stood by his word. I think he did the right thing. There has got to be some point where you have confidence in the contractor's ability to estimate accurately. However, had he said "I think this is going to take 4 more hours; I'll have to get back to you to confirm," and midway through he called to revise upwards, I would have had no choice but to authorize additional time. This is why I preferred to contract my services, back when I freelanced, on T&M as most of you probably do, too. Most of my clients, however, wanted estimates by the job. I learned to build in escape clauses, if say, they told me I was going to get double-spaced copy, but actually received hand-written, or edited their hard copy and the soft copy was completely different. Fortunately, I was pretty right on with my estimates, but did eat it a couple times; and I think I did the right thing, too. Perhaps this contractor had a new crew member who didn't work as fast as expected, or mismeasured the amount of extra material required, etc. That should not be my problem, IMO.Sorry for the confusion!
*Thanks, Andrew. Yes,we're about to move in, after spending almost as much time fixing/redoing as was spent in the first place. Biggest project left is juniper (harvested from ranch) kitchen counters.Back to the subject at hand, though, I guess I'd add that contractor, no matter how hungry, should know his limits and if job is more than he can handle (time-wise, complexity, size or whatever) he should say so...and possibly even recommend someone who could handle the job. That would definitely get him the opportunity to bid again if another more appropriate job arose.Part of our problem was being new in town, and not there (here?) full-time until building started. If you're building in a new town...ask around A LOT. Ask as many people as you know/meet about names you've been referred to or ask for other referrals. Try not to be in a hurry to choose and get started.Agree that "try-out" on smaller job is best way. We eliminated one contractor that way when he installed plumbing in a cabin and forgot the vent stack.And ditto to FredB, except I don't have enough experience with enough contractors to generalize that they all think homeowner is stupid. I'd advise any homeowner to do lots of homework (no pun intended) about the design and materials of their project. Know what you want. Learn as much as you can about what you've ordered/asked for. Because even the best contractor doesn't know everything and if he is the best, he's got a gazillion things/people/ideas/wants/needs/materials/details to keep track of. No matter what the terms of the contractor, the homeowner is the ultimate "quality control." Has anyone read/referred to "Built it Right" by Myron Ferguson? As homeowner reference, we found it most helpful.
*... better than the plumber who failed to attach the drain stub-outs to the main sewer in an apartment building crawlspace. No one figured it out until the raw sewage overflowed out the crawlspace vents ...(anecdote reported by someone else here)
*Ryan:Don't confuse me with the dear departed FredL. I didn't say "all contractors". I said "contractors". I was refering to those who just barely respect the paycheck they are getting from the homeowner. Please go back and read my post in that light.The people of whatever profession or trade who behave like that have, in my opinion, a distorted view of the world. Fortunately, they are in a minority and you can usually avoid using them either as a contractor or as a sub.
*Andrew,Agreed with everything, except the part about the ants. I just thought the lost helpers were factored into the quote. :)
*Tommy, re your question "Where the heck do you hide your beer?"--Apparently my initial reply did not indicate to others that I both:* understood that question to be one meant to add levity, and* do not condone drinking on the job. It should also go without saying that one should not indulge in alcohol when also needing to: * think clearly (well, duh already!), * use tools--esp. power tools, * climb ladders, etc. I think, in general, it is unwise to offer alcohol to anyone you don't know, or know only on a "contractual" basis. That said, however, there have been at least a few times where, after a project or segment thereof has been completed, the crew (all of whom I had been acquainted with for several years, were neighbors, relatives, etc.) remained onsite and had food and drink (singular) or drinks (if spending the night or walking home next door, etc.), and it was those circumstances that prompted me to indicate I would never consider JUST offering an alcoholic drink as a beverage option. The only drinks I've ever offered to workers during working hours is water, iced or hot tea, and coffee.In more and more cities, the person who serves an alcoholic beverage on their premises to someone who gets in their car and causes an accident (determined to be caused by impaired facilities as a result of alcohol) is at least partially responsible for whatever mayhem results from that accident. That, alone, should probably be reason enough to never serve alcohol to persons who will drive away, even from dinner parties.I hope this clears up my position, and apologize if anyone misinterpreted my remark.
*Sory for the outburstA Fred, is a Fred, Is a Fred.And a Fred by any other name is still a Fred.
*My goodness what a thread.My input when going on estimates-I arrive on time, perhaps a bit early.I bring pictures and references pertinent to the call, just a few.I keep my mouth shut and ears open.I try to be honest about what costs to expect, what time frame I will try to perform in, what I feel should be expected of me and what I will expect in return.I try to deliver estimates when I say I will but must confess to a miserable track record here. My wife has convinced me to allow for a longer estimating period- and then try to deliver before promised.I try to make the estimates as complete as possible- step by step detailing. If I overlook something that adds extra expense I pay for it. If I find things unforseeable, I charge to rectify them.When I'm finished with the project I stand behind my work.Shoot- now that I see how good and honest I am I'm thinking about hiring me to repair the kitchen floor I screwed up at my house last week-Oh yeah- communicate with the client and keep a clean jobsite.Used to bring my dog but she peed on a client's shoe one time...in the middle of his new dining room floor
*Why do some contractors charge a markup fee?When I start pricing out a big renovation project the first thing I do is start listing out all the materials to get some idea of where "ball park" is going to be. I base my material prices on my retail costs and expect the contractor's labour to be partially offset by volume discounts that he's able to receive. Instead what I usually run into is a something along the lines of a built in 10% materials markup. I would much rather pay the contractor to handle the materials according to his schedule, but I believe that cost should reflect his time spent handling, not a flat markup rate. Depending on the job, and the materials involved, it can amount to a pretty big pile of beans. When the pile is high, I'm encouraged to do my own material shopping (sometimes at a better price than his pre-markup these days) on my own schedule, which just makes things more difficult for the contractor.
*Ed,I'd like to believe that we live in a world that does not judge a book by its cover. But we don't. Perception is reality in most cases.As a manager, I have to look at my employees the way a customer does. An employee is a reflection of your company. Different demographics $$$ put more stock in appearance than talent.Give you an example...I've got a stack of 100 resumes in front of me, first one has a spelling error, next one used an address label...I work in the corporate office for a kinky little copy place. Do these things matter to me? Heck yes, they are the first to go in the "no" pile. Could they have been the best employee I've ever had, could be. But, if their first impression could not be perfect when there is a stack of others that are, I can't invest my time and money on their mistakes. This is the way I have to base my judgement on the first go round just to weed it out some. In my business, image matters.Would you consider buying your team matching t-shirts - or shirts? Buy enough for a week, then sell the extras at cost.Peace,Martin
*My wife has convinced me to allow for a longer estimating period- and then try to deliver before promised.Excellent advice, Doug. We do that in my publication department, too, i.e., we tell our customer we can get their document to them in 30 days, when we know, barring unforeseen circumstances, it should take 15, and generally deliver early or on-time. So far, there have always been unforeseen circumstances :(
*Scot, I assume you're asking this question about markup as a home owner.We mark up because it costs us more than materials and labor to run our businesses. We also have to cover the cost of office supplies, phone line, gas in our vehicles, replacement tools, drillbits, advertising, insurance, licenses, site signs, workmans comp, nails, new hinges on my tool box, bad debt etc. My work truck just failed inspection today for hydrocarbons and carbonmonoxide. These are the thousands of expenses we have as business owners that you never see.Not everybody marks up materials and everybody that does marks up differently. One guy charges material plus 30% markup and $25/hr labor. Another guy charges material with no markup and $55/hr labor. Same price, different ways of doing the paperwork.And no, you won't save money buying materials. I need to make $X to come to your home evey day. If you buy materials, I have to put the money I would have made on my material markup into my labor figure, or somewhere so I still make that money.Try going to the doctor and telling him you'll provide your paperclips for your medical file if he'll knock the nickle off your bill.In fact, I'll charge a higher price if I think you'll insist on providing your own materials (or If I'm smarter, I'll walk away) because I know that if you're in charge of what materials are on site, I may not get exactly what I wanted, the way I wanted it. And, If I've got to make the material list, and teach you enough about construction so that you can go get the right materials, I would have spent less time just faxing the list to the supliers that already know me and will deliver it to me the same day.And, forget about contractor discounts. Around here it's only 10/2 net 30.So, I guess my question to you, mr homeowner is: If 10% is too much, how much markup should I be allowed to charge to cover my expenses? Here are some hints:Retail usually 40-60%Auto parts usually 100%Medical supplies 200-400%
*Boy, I gotta get in on this one!Some clarification on the retail markup that Ryan quoted. "Retail usually 40-60% Auto parts usually 100% Medical supplies 200-400%" Actually, markup and profit margin are different. To attain a prfit margin of 40%, you will need to mark up the product about 70% (cost x 1.70) Believe it or not, this works out to a proft margin of 40%. Auto parts (I'm talking national chains) are absurd. 40% to 60% is what you WISH they marked them. 250% or more is the reality (example - purchase a timing gear set at wholesale for $3.85, and sell for $29.95)Some parts are marked up even higher.Retail for most merchants is around 60% nowadays, with some holding down to 30% to 40% to keep competitive. These guys are willing to get a smaller profit just to survive. That takes guts. I am, of course, talking about mark up on retail items, not services.Now... About marking up my materials... If, and when I get a discount (which is EXTREMELY rare), I damned well earned it! I buy my materials from the same suppliers, day in and day out. I spend tens of thousands of dollars a year at my suppliers, so that should make me a preferred customer. Guess what? It doesn't. I have to take the time to go pick those items out, take the time to make sure they are correct, and are what the client really needs, and then I have to spend my hard earned money purchasing it. Then I have to hope and pray my client will actually pay me for it. I use my gas, my vehicle, and my time to do all of this. If I am EXTREMELY lucky, I get a 5% or 10% break off of an item. I must emphasize here, it is EXTREMELY rare for this to happen. I truly am sorry if I have to mark up most of my materials for clients, but I have to make a living. I am just like you. I have to spend my money to start and finish these jobs, and I have to earn my money back. Then I have overhead to pay for, and then I must actually earn a profit (in my case, being a sole proprietor, my profit is my wages). In essence, you want me to take a wage cut so you can save a dollar or two on your new house. I can tell you right now, I ain't that hungry. Sincerely,James DuHamel
*peckerhead clientROFLMAO! I haven't heard that phrase in ages! I love it!
*Scott,The contractor is in business to make a profit.Much the same as the auto manufacturer "designs" an automobile thatis user friendly, safe to drive and aesthetically pleasing to the eye as well as worthy of the rigors of use.If you feel the contractor is making more than his due when you pick his brain regarding the application and his opinion of the worthiness of the material, I suggest you take the risk and spend your own time, not your contractors, to save the "markup" he feels is worth selling you the product.If there is one thing that really makes me not want to "help out" a potential client, dictating my profit and "taking my costs of doing business" for granted is one that is never forgiven.Personally, Scott, I have done my best to help you out for not a dime.You sent me a drawing, which I took the time to download and evaluate which leads me to believe that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground if you were gasping for your last dollar or breath.Your "big pile of beans" is indeed high! My suggestion is this:Do your own material shopping and don't bullshit and drain the contractors' brains on this site because it is apparent that you already know more than they do AND they don't deserve to make a profit on their guidance and advice.Screw you Scott!!!You have gotten much more than you appreciate from this site, already.Sincerely,Jeff
*ject: Hey Jeffie Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2000 21:57:19 -0600 From: "Scott Mazur" To: Sorry this took a little longer than expected. First I thought I'd getfancy with a 3d cutaway drawing, but finally gave up (still cutting my teethon TurboCad), then I had trouble deleting some unused layers, followed bywonky program operation, long downloads of program revisions, more wonkyoperation, etc, etc. Replaced the old computer before Christmas, and I'mstill pounding bugs out.This is a cross section of the second floor, or at least how I envision it.I can't say I've got the cash or time to do it all according to this plan,so all the below floor decorative items are probably more on the lifetimeplan. Spacing of the strapping is probably going to be dictated by theflooring. If we choose to go with a nail down hardwood, then the strappingwill be spaced to accomodate the nailing. I suspect we may also end uplooking at some kind of floating floor system. In that case the strappingwill be spaced to accomodate the heating pipe layout, and probably skip thetop strapping all together (as would be done for tiled areas).Mainfloor is basically the same on top. The sub floor is maybe an inchthicker, and the joists are spaced 24" O.C.I'd be happy to send you the floor plan layouts as well, but don't have thendrawn up yet (I've been working with house design software prior toTurboCad). Last year we built a 4 car (well, more like 2 car and a TON ofstorage) attached to the house with a breezeway. There's an off shed roomattached to the garage where the boiler sits, and an insulated wood chaseburried beneath the breezeway carries the heating pipes. The garage isradiant heated, as is the breezeway, and by the end of this summer the housewill be as well. The heating sales office where I bought the boiler hasbeen extremely helpful with information, tools, and supplies and advice.Can't say anything near as glowing about the local hvac trades, so I've beenlearning and doing on my own. Radiant heat is very rare here.I'm pretty keen on the concept of bubble foam. All I've got to go on arethe advertising leaflets found on the shelves next to the product but itfits what I've come to believe about heat flow. Lately I've been findingmore sources for "bulk" rolls which put the price a little closer to reality(personally, I think the stuff should be as cheap as paper). You've had ahell of alot more experience with these things than I so what do you think?Scott [email protected] FloorSections.dxf Name: FloorSections.dxfYou're on your own Scott. Don't even muster up the balls to ask my opinion, let alone for "free" or as you say "cheap as paper". Type: DXF File (application/x-unknown-content-type-dxf_auto_file) Encoding: 7bit