Hello Everyone-
I have a H.O. who needs a header replaced over a set of sliding glass doors. Short story: 50’s ranch, 2×4 construction, exterior wall with door flanked by windows was opened up about 10 years ago and replaced with a 12-foot wide bank of sliding glass doors. Unbelieveably (to me) the installer merely put in a doubled 2×6 header for the 12-ft span, more unbelievable because one end of a built up girder rests on this header, and the ceiling joists hang off the girder. There’s a lot of point load there, and of course the header sags, the ceiling is cracked, and the sliding doors are starting to bind.
I had an engineer buddy of mine come look at it, and he proposed a doubled 2×12 header containing a 10 inch by 1/2 inch steel flitch plate. Both of us feel confident that this will be more than adequate. He looked at it with me as a favor, but he’d have to charge me at least $300 to sketch it out, write out the calculations and stamp the drawings for a building permit. Sounds reasonable to me, but here’s my question:
H.O. wants to save the $300 plus the permit fee. She says she trusts our judgement and can’t see the point of paying the extra money. She says just do it and don’t take out a permit. I feel confident that the proposed header design will be just fine. And yet, I can’t get totally comfortable with doing the work on the sly, so to speak. I’d sleep a lot better knowing the inspector signed off on the calcs and the installation.
What do you guys think? Would I be asking for trouble if I don’t do this by the book?
-Doug in Wisc.
Replies
It was nice of your buddy to have a preliminary look for free. I think if you do the job you owe him the professional courtesy of hiring for his services. Otherwise you are doing it behind his back too, kind of taking advantage.
If you want him to do a field inspection in the future you had better take care of him now.
As far as the woman who wants to save the $300, she's lucky to get some one who will do it right, this time. Let her pay.
What Maverick said.
Your client is a cheap a$$. Do not let her dictate the terms of your relationship.
You are using the engineers advice, let him get paid and draw it, get the permit and it will cover everyones a$$e$.
What would you do if you shortcutted these stepps and the ceiling fell in on her and killed her?
ou are the professional here, act like one and present yourself as one and demand to be compensated as such.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
don't sell yourself short.
Make her see that it's the right way to go,(with permits). If she doesn't want to pay the 300 for the engineer, and permit costs and your fee to complete it the right way, then....
Walk away. Get out before you start. You'll sleep better in the end.
Don't steal from your buddy. And don't look kindly on a client who would ask you to steal from your buddy. And don't give her the details of the solution, or she'll find someone else to steal you buddy's work.
And you know that other goofball who installed that undersized header the first time? That's what someone could be saying about you if you do it her way and there's a problem. Why would you risk YOUR reputation so she can save a few bucks?
I'd feel obligated to pay that engineer now, even if she doesn't hire you. You used his services. Fair is fair.
Free speech leads to a free society.
Edited 3/22/2005 8:22 pm ET by jim blodgett
Of course it's too late now but.... Why on earth would you let her in on your information regarding the engineer's fee as well as the proposed repair? Now you are in the position of having to try to talk her into spending an "extra" "needless" (in her eyes) $300.00. Like I said, it's too late now, but the correct way to go about it would have been just to have the flitch plate conversation with your buddy outside of her range of hearing and come back to her with "I can fix it, and this is how much it is going to cost you..."
Unfortunately I don't know of any way to help you in this situation. You are either going to do the job "on the sly" or if you stick to your guns and tell her you have to pull the permit and pay the engineer, she will say "thankz, but no thankz" and hire someone else to do exactly what you proposed, sans permits and engineers stamp.
You may just have to chalk this one up to experience. Or maybe I'm wrong and you are a silver tongued devil who can convince her to "do the right thing". I certainly hope that's the case.
My experience with this type of client is that if they balk at a legitimate part of the project cost upfront, or ask you to cut corners somewhere, you will have a hard time collecting all your money.
Once someone sees that they can take advantage of you, or your engineer in this case, you are going to have serious problems. RUN AWAY!
This is just one more thing to consider in addition to all the excellent points already made by others.
Edited 3/22/2005 9:06 pm ET by gregb
One more in the chorus of "don't do it".
You already know the correct answer... now just execute the correct answer.
Tell the homeowner that you'll be happy to do the job. And if you aren't the one doing the job... fine... but pay the engineer who gave her the answer. It's his work, whether it's all pretty on a piece of paper... or conceptual.
I'm in double agreement with Jim Blodgett here.
But I have a question...
Have you already quoted the lady a price ?
If not, just add the 300 dollars to the price, and do it right anyway...
If you have already quoted a firm price, then I strongly encourage you to do the job, pay your buddy regardless of whether it will end up costing you or not... And consider it tuition for your business.
In the long run, Doug... Doing the right thing will pay back dividends... Pay your buddy the engineer, regardless of whether you do the job or not, and if you do the job, then regardless of whether it comes out of your pocket in the end, or not.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Thanks to everyone for your responses and your concern. I think Eric Paulson and Jim Blodgett came closest to understanding my concern and Rich from Columbus is exactly right that I already know the correct answer but just wanted some feedback.I'm impressed with your unanimous concern about the engineer getting cheated out of his fee. Apparently I didn't describe the situation very well, so I'll try again.Nick (the engineer) offered to look at it and give me his "eyeball" evaluation for free. He wasn't expecting any fee. He felt confident that the 2x12 with flitch plate would be ample, and he felt his on-site scratch paper calculations were plenty conservative to justify that opinion. (Mark: It was actually Nick himself who blabbed up a storm in front of the homeowner). So basically Nick said "this will be fine-no worries-go ahead and install it with confidence. HOWEVER, if you feel the need to take out a permit, the building department will require drawings, calculations, and my stamp. That will run at least $300." The implication being that all that stuff is needless red tape for something he can spec by eye.Homeowner hears all this (like I said, Nick blabbed up a storm) and thinks "why spend the money when it's just an unneccessary formality? You guys know what you're doing-inspector will approve everything anyway-what's the point?"And that's where my question came in. In this particular case, the calculations and drawings really are sort of unneccesary red tape. The inspector really would rubber stamp everything. Nick really doesn't care about getting a little $300 job. Neither the H.O. or I have the slightest thought of cheating Nick out of a fee.But I would feel better doing it by the book and covering my #### liability-wise. And as I expected, you all come down resoundingly on the side of doing the paperwork and getting the permit. Good enough-that's what will happen.I will tell the homeowner that a permit is the right thing to do and Nick's fee is money well spent. She will say yes and she'll respect me in the morning. When she tells her friends about all this, they won't hear "he's expensive," they'll hear "he doesn't cut corners."Thanks again for providing the sounding board.Doug from Wisc.
In Calif. (unless the laws have changed, which I doubt) the GC is responsible to pull the permit. Only if the homeowner is acting as an owner/builder and you are working as a sub would the call be up to the homeowner. Or if you are working by the hour. But if you are a general contractor in a bid situation, you MUST pull the permit, or you risk losing your license. And further, if the building dep't busts your job (a neighbor calls it in, for ex.), then you risk creating bad blood between yourself & the building dep't., somthing you don't want to do.
Calif is pretty darn serious about their permits. Best do it by the book....
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Good choice.: )
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
Any time you don't do things by the book, you are just asking for trouble. Not only will you be taking unfair advantage of your engineer friend but you could possibly tick off the code enforcement office. You plan on staying in business for a long time and will have to rely on these people in the future. Some customers are always crying poverty but you can bet they have the money for new drapes or a wide screen TV. This isn't a big job anyway so you won't be losing much if you don't get it. If the customer figures you for a wet noodle, they will always try to beat you up on your price. You know what it takes to do the job correctly and professionally. Why compromise your good name for a few hundred bucks. There's plenty of slugs out there, you don't want to be one too.
I'm a little surprised that the code office would require a stamped drawing for this, but if that is their procedure, follow it. At the least, I would send your engineer a bottle from the top shelf, some movie tickets or a gift certificate to a restaurant.
Many of the suppliers of trusses, LVL beams and steel in my area will speck out your requirements for no fee. They do this all the time so they don't have to break out their books to do computations that ordinary engineers may not have daily experience with. For the companies that specialize in such services, it is just a matter of plugging in a few numbers in their program. For a PE that works in some other field, it's a lot more work.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I just skimmed thru ...
but any customer not wanting to pay $300 for pretty much anything ....
and yer asking for trouble by thinking about actually working for them.
Not like they ever get ... less cheap.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA