Attaching 2 by 4 to concrete ceiling ?
user-111700
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I have a client that has asked for a solution as to how to affix a horizontal blind on a ceiling mounted track when the ceiling is concrete.It is on the 15th floor in a high rise on the water. My idea is to hang a 2″x 4″x9′ across the opening in front of the 12′ tall hurricane windows with L brackets mounted to the side walls and liquid nail the top of the 2×4 to the concrete ceiling to prevent sagging. I could wedge a 12′ board in the center until liquid nails sets. The track could then be mounted to the wood . I am making an upholstered cornice to hide the works. Has anyone got a better solution? Do you think my idea will work ?Open to suggestions, thanks Susan
Replies
I would Roto-hammer the wood to the concrete. I also imagine that the concrete is actually a post-tension slab, so the anchors should not penetrate more than 3/4". If none of this make sence, do not try it, someone could get hurt.
cant drill into the ceiling.rules I suppose
can you mount the track straight to the cieling???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
No not at all . thats why I have to put some wood up there to screw into.
use a 1by or ?/4 in oak or maple or ash or hickory or clear pine or fir or or or....
use flat head tapcons to fasten it to ceiling... pick a piece that compliments....
or use the 2x4 as you suggested...
I wouldn't use LN but PL premium instead....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
what are the abbreviations ?
LN is Liquid Nails...
PL is the name of the real stuff...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
agreed. PL Premium. Give the concrete a good cleaning so the glue doesn't stick to dust. The concrete can be a bit damp when applying the glue as it is a polyurethane glue and alittle moisture increases its strength. Obviously getting as much pressure on the 2x4 whilst gluing is a good idea. However if the client is going to be pulling on this with a string (Blinds??) i would tapcon it.
is the ceiling painted???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I may be reading to much into this but when the original poster said they could not drill into the ceiling I'm wondering if it's because it's a post-tension slab?
Is there a reliable method for determining the position of the cables, wouldn't the building designer/contractor have drawings indicating where they "should" be?
I've not dealt with a PT slab so I don't know much if anything about then...
To everyone who wants to Tap-Con, she already said that there was no drilling involved.
Typically with a PT slab, you can drill into the bottom 3/4" no problem. In this instance, since it is on the exterior portion the cables will be even higher.
she is gonna have to come with a mechaical assist some how...
guess us drillers are just fearless...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Up until last summer, I had always seen contractors use x-ray to determine the location of core holes in the buildings I work in.
Always done at off hours on premium time, and they always shut down the floor they were x-raying and the floor below it. Pretty expensive, and very inconvenient.
Last summer we needed about 10 4" conduits run through our basement wall to reroute our electrical service. The electrical contractor used a company that used this tool.
http://www.ndtjames.com/catalog/rebarlocators/pdf/R-Meter%20MkIII.pdf
After much too much thought over how this client is going to install blinds to his concrete ceiling, which by the way I am not even selling to him,I've come to the conclusion to pass on this part of his project, and he can call a pro. I often try too hard to please my customers.I design and make window treatments , I'm not a builder .Do you agree with me ?
In other words, do what you do and don't do what you don't do? Umm, yeah, I think that's right. As a handyman, I often struggle to define those boundaries and I know it's not easy.
But don't tell them to call a pro. They should perceive you as a pro. Just tell them that without any way to mechanically fasten to the ceiling, it's your professional opinion that they can not get a safe, secure, trouble-free, long-term solution.
And, by the way, that's probably exactly what I would tell my own customer. I know there are some great glues out there (like PL premium), but I would be very leery about relying on glue alone for anything operable overhead.
Thanks for your opinion, There were also going to be 4 ) 4" L brackets holding the 2x4 up attached to the side walls into the framing, but the client is also getting advise from someone else, and insisting its just fine for me to use tapcons and attach to the concrete . The blind he is buying at Home Depot. They pull closed to the center vertically and will be open 99 % of the time so not pulling down on it at all.9'x12' tall opening they will be stacked back to 8"on the sides in the open position almost always.And frankly why do I care so much ?Lol
And frankly why do I care so much ?
Maybe its because like most of us here, ya just love solving problems and learning new processes?View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
You got that right , I come by it naturally, my dear father was a bit of a know it all and inventor . I love to problem solve.Thanks for the compliment on my work, that's my best Christmas present yet !
Susan,Since the client will have the L-brackets as backup, I'd tell them to go for the PL Premium and the temporary braces to fasten the 2x4 to the ceiling. Space the braces every two feet, wedged to the floor (after proper surface prep and generous glueage.) Done right, it will not fail. If it does fail, the brackets will prevent it from conking someone on the head. Definitely no Tapcons. You don't want the liability for drilling holes.Bill
I'm sure it is painted, would the PL not stick to a painted surface ? I was going to leave the glued surface of 2x4 unpainted. I meet with the client tomorrow morn and if he insists on me drilling into the concrete, I'm bowing out of this little job. I've already got enough to do as I'm doing the rest of the window treatments.This was after the contract was signed,I was just trying to be helpful with his blinds.
the PL will bond fine with the paint... FWIW....
but I believe the paint will interfere with the overall scheme of things...
mechanical (ie Tapcons) sounds like the only real sure thing...
all of the expansion / contraction / temp swings / moisture / lateral forces over time will conspire and the glue bond will fail....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I was just trying to be helpful
That right there has caused me more problems and cost our company more money then anything else. As much as I try to be as helpful to our clients I've come to learn that if something is outside of my, or our companies, expertise it's best to to try to put them in contact with someone who knows more then us in regard to the situation. Fortunetly our company and myself have been around long enough to know a lot of good people in town.
Hard not to be all things to all people I know. Just try to stick inside your area as much as possible in order to protect your profits and limit your liability.
FWIW, I'm sure there is an answer to this problem and I would bet some shallow tap-cons would not cause a problem, BUT I would not commit myself to doing it until I did my homework.
How old is the building, if it's new try contacting the original builder, if it's old ask the building engineer for his assistance. I still would not recommend doing it yourself as like IMERC I think the adhesive over time is a bad idea.
Good luck and merry christmas
You don't mention budget...If you want a fail safe solution with no holes in the ceiling...and you don't want to go deeper than four inches (OK, 3 1/2 inches)....Maybe use steel??
Rich Beckman
Oh, and it's the same old story
Ever since the world began
Everybody got the runs for glory
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the planPaul Simon, 1973
the reason for the 2x4 is that the screws that attach the metal track to the top are 1 1/2 " long
Here's a solution that does not require fasterning to the ceiling.
Why? you ask.
First, you are told you mustn't.Second, if ever there was a change in the window coverings, someone is left with a glued up 2x4 to pry off and then a ceiling to repaint.
You need to know what the header above the window is. In a highrise it is typically of reinforced concrete, either precast or poured in place. It will not be post tensioned. You will be able to drill into that.
Nothing says you are limited to a 2x4 because the screws provided are 1 1/2" long. With proper holding depth in a proper material these screws can be as short as, say, 1/4".
What proper material would allow you to use screws only 1/4" long? Steel.
Since you are hiding all the supports with a custom cornice I would suggest using angle brackets screwed securely to the wall. Don't use just any off the shelf bracket. Have them fabricated for the job and gussetted for strength. Make them about 2" wide. At least 3 screw holes on the vertical portion for fastening to the wall, and long enough on the horizontal component to reach the track.
A large hole or long oval, maybe 1" or so in diameter, for wiggle room, near the end of the bracket and then a 1 1/2" square drilled and tapped plate placed on top of the bracket to accepted the nice short screws holding the track.
You will, of course, accurately drill the clearance holes in the track to correspond to the holes in the support bracket. The wiggle room is just in case you are off a little so you don't have to fight to line up the screws. That little 1 1/2" tapped plate will have a range of motion to connect with your track fasteners.
How you plan to attach the cornice could also have bearing on how you construct your brackets. If the cornice is designed to be attached to the track you are home free. If not you can modify the design of the support brackets. That's another thread.
Brackets attached to the wall should clear the ceiling by enough to position the plates and keep the screws from hitting the ceiling, which would keep the track from being fully tightened and perhaps force the brackets downward adding to the force of the weight of the track, etc.
"the reason for the 2x4 is that the screws that attach the metal track to the top are 1 1/2 " long"It sounds like Ralph's idea might be the way to go, but if not, and if the 1 1/2" screws are needed, the 2x4 can be attached to the steel.
Rich Beckman
Oh, and it's the same old story
Ever since the world began
Everybody got the runs for glory
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the plan
Nobody stop and scrutinize the planPaul Simon, 1973
Bowing out is an excellent choice. There are alot of things to consider in highrise construction, electrical conduits for plugs, lighting switching, control wiring, etc, rebar, and there is an insane amount of rebar if there is a balcony.
Also, the walls could be constructed in a variety of ways.
Only the builder can be sure of this and his options are much wider. He will have access to chemical and mechanical fasteners that are simply not affordable or readily available to the average Joe or Josephine.
My rule of thumb:
I don't carry enough insurance to make edjumakaded guesses on high rises.
Gord
Just talked to my client and he understood my apprehension,and graciously let me out of our verbal agreement.I still will be installing window treatments, I'm bumping up my insurance for sure . Now you've got me nervous as to what's in the walls ? Is there a standard allowance for electric and plumbing ? I mean everybody is going to hang a picture. Is there an instrument that can detect these things ? I was very happy to get my foot in the door at this remarkable high rise , should I not want to work there because of the great legal risk I may be in for ?
Walls could be steel stud, insulated concrete, or contain some type of steel frame.
A simple conversation with the Superintendent should let you know what works best for fastening to walls.
Gord
Not knowing what everything will weigh after it's all applied to the 2x4, here's what I would do for light duty.
Setup my router and a dovetail bit, put the guidefence on. I would then run two dovetail slots the entire length of the board.
Cut the 2x4 a little oversize so it will be wedged between the two walls.
Then fill both slots with expanding spray foam. Wedge the board in and use alot of temp. 2x's to keep the board in place till the foam sets. Use alot of foam, wait til it dries to clean it up.
This will hold up alot of weight.
Woods favorite carpenter
I know someone who recently sold and installed about $30,000 worth of curtains for a new restaurant.
These were curtains 5-6 ft wide and about 12 ft long so there were pretty big.
Do you ever do any big jobs like that? I was just curious. I think it's an interesting field you're in.
I have not done a job that big yet, but I could ! I mostly design and create treatments for high end homes .