attic storage – load bearing concern
Thanks for all the input so far on my other posts. I have another question on my plan to utilize my garage attic space for storage. For review, I’m planning to install pull-down stairs and add flooring material to my garage ceiling joists. The joists are 2X8 spaced 16″.
Now I’m concerned about the load rating. Yesterady I was crawling around up their trying to figure the best location for the stairs. I noticed that the Joists do not overlap any cross-structural members (like a beam), nor are they attached on the ends with joist hangers. Rather, they are toe-nailed on each end into the headers. Does this provide enough structural integrity to attach flooring and use the space for storage? I’m concerned that perhaps they were built solely for the purpose of supporting the drywall ceiling load.
Opinions? I’d hate to have everything come crashing down!
Rob
Replies
How far do they span?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
are thesse headers or ledgers they are toenailed into? Do they still sit on something else? For instance, might what you refer to as a header be a rim joist that sits on top of the top plate of the walls? So if they let 1.5" of the end of the joist sit on the wall, you are fine.
but if they hang free except for the toe nails, then it is easy enough to add hangers. Many of us install the hangers after the joists anyway.
As for the hole, standard procedure is to double the joists on ech side of the hole, and header off to support the joiists that get cut shorter intersecting said hole. Use hangers there too.
The one piece of info lacking is how long the joists are. I wouldn't want 2x8s spanning much more than 12' without a beam
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Is this a detached garage or an attached garage?
If it's attached and you cut in attic stairs you have to fire proof your house walls.
>> I noticed that the Joists do not overlap any cross-structural members (like a beam), nor are they attached on the ends with joist hangers. <<
So, are you saying that the joists are attached to the side of the beam(s)? And as piffin noted, aren't at least some of the joists sitting on top of the wall cap plate? In other words, are you saying that there is no framing member below any part of these joists?
My bedroom is a "front to back" so the ceiling spans quite a distance, maybe 15'-20'. The ceiling joists are 2x6s or 2x8s, can't remember. Anyway there are 1xs attached near the ridge of the attic to the center of the ceiling joists to, sort of, hold them up so they don't sag in the middle. Could you do something like that to add support - hang the joists from your roof?
If the 2x8 bear on a header over a 16 ft garage door, you have some serious beefing up of the header over the door to do.
Thanks for all the responses so far - sorry to "post and run" before, I've been doing work around the house all day.
The maximum span on the joists would be 12'. I'm not entirely sure what their toenailed in to. I'll get up there tomorrow night and give it a better look.
Rob
Ok, I've done a little more detective work, and this is what I find:
The 2X8 joists span 11 feet. On the end above the garage door they are toenailed into a 2X4 that is facenailed onto the wall studs. On the opposite end the joists are toenailed into a "sandwich" of 3 2X4s face-nailed together and facenailed to 2 2X10s facenailed together. The joists do not appear to rest on a structural member on either end.
1) Can these joists as currently configured support 5/8" plywood flooring and the load associated with storage of seasonal lawn and garage materials? I suspect the answer is no, which leads me to...
2) What modifications could I do to shore up the ceiling joist structure to support my desired load? It doesn't look like I could attach joist hangers very easily, nor do the cross members (the 2X4s) appear sufficient to accept the load from the joist hangers.
If I need to do anything, it looks like I could sister 2X6s against the 2X8 joists, extending a few inches past the end of the 2X8s. The benefit of this would be that the ends of the 2X6s would be resting on cross members. On one end they would rest on the 3 2X4 sandwich. On the othe end they would rest on the top-plate of the wall over the garage door. The top-plate sits on cripple studs resting on a doubled-up 2X12 spanning the garage door openning. Would this help? Is there an easier (cheaper) approach?
Thanks, and I apologize if my amatuerish explanations above are unclear.
Rob
shameless bump up to keep the ceiling up;)
Granted DiesilPig's way would be the best way to frame it (and the most expensive). That aside, I think you may already know this, but attached are a few pics of the way it might normally be framed (assuming that the ceiling joists were to be run in the direction they currently are). This would have been fully code complient,etc. assuming the header over the garage door is sized properly.
Flush-beam 001 would corospond to the support above the garage door.
drop-girder in garage 003 would corospond to the way the joists at the center beam should have been handled.
Rafter-ties 001 shows the flat 2x4s that keep the non-gable end walls from spreading (and ridge from sagging).
Now these other guys are gonna throw rocks at me ;-)
I don't see anything normal about any of that
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Ok. let's exclude the 3rd picture with the rafter ties.
Educate me - what is wrong with the ceiling joists...
nothing wrong with the joists themselves, specificly, but that is not a normal way of doing things.And as far as the whole setup - The flat 2x4s fro spreader ties or whatever do not seem to connect directly to the rafters.They connect to a doubled joist near a lookout joist, which connects to a plate, which connects to the rafters --- wayt too many links and fasteneres to fail, unless there is a structural ridge. If you are using these as rafter ties, they shopuld be directly connected to the rafters with enough fasteneers to resist the loads. I don't think that exists in you picture.
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I forget the relationship to the garage door, but would it be possible to take out the perimeter of the ceiling sheetrock, and frame a new wall against the existing wall? That would reduce the size of the garage by 4" all around, but it would provide good support for the joists.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
or bolt on a 4" angle iron under the 2x4 ledger?
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>> nothing wrong with the joists themselves, specificly, but that is not a normal way of doing things <<
Not sure what to say except it must be a regional thing. The garage beam pic is a little unusual only because there are 2 beams - it was a deep garage. With the exception of the double beam I'd guess that 80% of the garages in my county are framed like that. Generally, the only clearspanning of 2 car garages we do is with open web floor trusses, or maybe very occasionally tall I-joists.
Other joist pic "flush_beam" - just regular stuff... Interior of a house. My purpose for showing that was just to show a regular ledger supported joists.
The rafter tie pic - it was a porch - admittedly the execution of some of the details may be a little flaky, but generally a somewhat common way of doing things around here as opposed to clearspanning long distances - engineered with joists in that direction, inspected, and sighed off. Virtually no snow loads may have something to do with it.
BTW - maybe I'm a building geek, but whenever I visit other parts of the country I like to visit construction sites just to see how they do things - and am often surprized by differences. Drives my wife crazy. My Thanksgiving trip to NY and PA was a bit disappointing in that I only saw 1 new house under construction and didn't get an opportunity to go in it. Made me realize why so many of you guys do remodeling though - apparently there is very little new construction in some parts of the country. Where I live, I think 50% of the homes are < 10 years old.
Edited 12/12/2005 6:44 am ET by Matt
Flush-beam 001: Instead of notched joists on a ledger, here it would all be Simpson hangers.
drop-girder in garage 003: Why the sistered joists? In particular, there's a place where you have three, but the middle one doesn't go all the way. The wild ends would usually be trimmed off to avoid levering up a hump in the floor above.
Rafter-ties 001 : Here the 2x4 ties would be face nailed directly to the sides of the rafters, creating a bunch of obstacles in the attic, but a simpler load path.
All very different, but this is earthquake country.
-- J.S.
I'm having a terrible time seeing in my miond's eye what is going on with all this facenailing and different sizes. The other confusion, is that you seem to have a garage that ios only 11' deep? I haven't seen that many cars so short as that. So I assume I am missing something still. Take the end of the joists over the garage door-You do have a header over the garage door, right? iof so, it is unique that there would be studs there.But be that as it may, there is a 2x4 nailed to them, Are the joists toenailed there on top of that or nailed into the face of it? Are they nothched over it at all?The other end has me totally buffaloed
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I can't get my head around this scenario either Piff. It's definitely time to bust out the digital camera and get us all straightened out. I think it's the nomenclature, or lack thereof, that is turning this thing into a bowl of spaghetti.
It sounds to me like on one end they joists are toenailed at the heel or bottom of the joist into a 2x4 ledger nailed to a stud wall. Only problem is that from what I can tell, if there's studs there then it must be a gable end. That would mean the joists are running parallel with the ridge?!? Either that or there's cripple studs over the garage header?
The other end just sounds like a mistake. :)
We'll get to the bottom of this, yet.
Wow, yer right. He could have more problems than he has fingernails to chew
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That's ok - I have toenails too (no pun intended). I can solve the 11'-deep garage mystery easily enough - the garage is actually 22'X22' There is a steel beam running across the width about 12' back from the garage door openning. The beam is there because our master bath is built partly over the garage. The master bath extends over the beam, so the ceiling joists in the garage attic only extend to the bathroom wall.
That said (and now that I've piqued your interest), I'll try to post some pictures to compensate for my invented nomenclature lack of descriptive abilities. Probably won't get a chance to do so until Sunday, so you can sleep on it a few days.
As I used to say as a child - it was like this when I found it! I didn't build it this way, I just have the pleasure of buying someone else's shortcuts.
Rob
We make a living fixing foopaws
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Here's some pics. The file names should be descriptive.
In "above door (no number).jpg" what are we seeing? Are you looking down at exposed floor joists where there is no floor?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"above door.jpg" shows the ceiling joists where they meet the wall above the garage door openning. above door2.jpg" shows the wall framing above the door directly below the ceiling. Imagine these 2 pictures stiched together if the garage ceiling wasn't in the way.
It is beyond me why the builder didn't carry the joists a few additional inches to rest on the top plate, instead of toenailing them into the 2X4 ledger (?)
Rob
shows the ceiling joists where they meet the wall above the garage door openning
So, the forest of nails poking through the plywood are from the outside, fastening up some detail on or in the siding over the garage door, correct? That makes the ply in that pic vertical, and the 2x4 horizontal, also correct?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
correct.
I'm not a remodeler by any stretch so am not gonna make any specific recomendations, but I'll have to say that I was a bit shocked by those pics and the way that the ceiling joists were actually, as you said, just toenailed to some 2x4s... I have a fondness for ledger strips, and that method has been criticized here, but all of a sudden ledgers look real good.
How old is this house?, and do you think that that could be DIY work?
guess what!There isn't much wrong with the way you described this, nor with your instincts for worrying whether this is safe.it is built pretty much just like you said, it's just that that way is so poor that I couldn'tbelieve somebody really would build it like that.it is worse than just the cileing/floor framing. Since the joists run perp to the rafters, there is not much for rafter ties gointg on, just that pole in the middle of thingsto the tridge board and the collar ties above. Hope you are not in a snow zone where live laods are high. The only way i would consider using this space for storage is to tear it apart and reframe it. it may be fine for a cieling, butit wouls scare me o load it with afloor let alone put anyuthing on that floor.There is a space where that stud in the wall is moved off layout is why the 40-50 nails are standing gaurd against any air escaping through the nailholes. half the cieling jopists look like they were PT used once for concrete work.It was a jackleg threw this job together. I would hope it is only your garage that is so poorly done.I hate to be the one to bring bad news but better safethan sorry.
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There's no place like home! The house was built in 1990. We bought in 99. As time goes by, we find more shortcuts. We have to tear out and replace the tile shower stall in the master bath becuse it's leaking - either due to the tile installed directly over drywall, or God-knows-what membrane under the shower pan. There is a single water turn-off in the entire house - the main service - because you can save like $20 not installing one for each faucet. Etc, etc. I'm scared by what else I will find.
As far as my garage framing situation, do I gain the necessary structural support if I run framing members (2X4 or 2X6) between the joists and the rafters - essentially hanging the joists from the rafters?
How about laying a 2X6 on edge atop the existing 2X4 ledger, lag-bolting it into the wall studs, and attaching joist hangers on that end (although I still don't think that solves the problem on the other joist end).
There have to be some workable solutions, short of reframing the entire ceiling structure.
Right?
I'm with Piffin - This has been built in a half-assed manor. No way would I suggest storing anything up there.
Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need a place. [Billy Crystal]
One more vote w/ piffin.
Hats off to the HO here. Good eye, good discriptions, great photos, and a top notch instinct for a job done wrong.
This is a nothing more than a "slightly overstructured" drop ceiling.
The builder could have saved a few nails if he had ripped the 2x8's down to 2x4's or 2x3's to save on the "dead load". Other than that, this is a text book way of how not to do it.
Can't even go back to add a ledger because of the doubled up 2x4's at the ends.
My vote would be to tear out, and re-frame the ceil/floor, or... try to frame a new floor above this one that is supported by the steel beam, and a bolted ledger (like the HO said) above this floor. However, I don't know if the header over the door, or the beam have been sized for this.
Wow, who knew framing could arouse such passion? Imagine if we invited the guy who framed my garage into the discussion!
Seriously, I do appreciate such thorough responses to my questions - it's what makes this discussion forum such a resource to folks like me.
In an attempt to salvage my original plan with a little less reframing, let me through you a curveball. Only 1/2 of the garage attic space is thoroughly afflicted by the structural deficiencies I've documented. Basically, the joists that dead-end into the shower wall are screwed. However, in the section of attic that doesn't content with the shower wall, the joists are able to extend the extra foot necessary to rest on the steel beam (so only one end is structurally compromised). The joists extending on the other side of the beam are thankfully well-supported on both ends - resting on the beam one end and the top plate of the garage wall on the other.
So how does this sound - Leave the "good joists" alone. Add support to the half-good joists (the ones supported by the beam on one end) by attaching another ledger above the existing 2X4 to the wall studs and attaching joist hangers. Add a new beam (tripled-up 2X8) in the middle of the attic parallel to the existing joists resting on the existing beam and the top-plate above the garage door. Lastly, removing the "bad joists" entirely and reinstalling them parallel to the rafters (and perpendicular to the remaining joists), hanging them from the new beam with joist hangers on one end and resting on the oposing wall's top plate.
Thoughts?
maybe do that, but is sounds like a lot more work than Dieselpig's solution
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Sounds feasible, but.......
parallel to the existing joists resting on the existing beam and the top-plate above the garage door
Does the red above mean that your new beam will bear on the header over the door? If so you will be transferring approximately 25 percent of the total floor load, or about 3,025lbs, ( based on 11' x 22' area being reframed @ 40 lbs/sf live and 10 lbs/sf dead), as a point load on to the header above the garage door. Not a good idea unless the new beam lands within 12" or so of one of the beam ends.
Check this out carefully.
You interpreted correctly. The new beam would bear almost dead center on the header above the garage door. Damn! Why didn't any of you guys build my house - then we wouldn't be having this discussion.
One point of clarification - under my proposed fix only an 11' X 11' area is being reframed and would bear on the new center beam. Does that decrease the load sufficiently? The header above the garage door is a double 2X12 spanning 16'.
only an 11' X 11' area is being reframed
I thought that the new joists (over half of the garage) would run the 22' lenght parallel to the exist beam, and be supported in the middle by the new beam running perpendicular between the exist beam and the door header below?
Did I get that wrong?
A picture is worth.....
Here's a PDF file done using rudimentary drawing skills in WORD to show my proposed solution.
The overall footprint of the garage is 22'X22". If you divide the garage ceiling into quadrants, the SW and SE quadrants are currently fine - the joists rest on the center steel beam and the south wall top plate.
The NW quadrant is half-fine - the joists rest on the center steel beam, but are only toe-nailed to a 2X4 ledger which is face-nailed into the wall studs above the garage door (which rest on the double 2X12 header). I propose to lag-bolt another ledger (2X8 or so) above the existing ledger and use joist hangers to join the joists and the new larger ledger.
The NE quadrant is currently crap - the joists are just toe-nailed on each end. I propose to remove these joists entirely, install a new center beam oriented perpendicular to the steel beam, resting on the center steel beam on the South end and the North wall top-plate on the other end (the North wall is constructed as follows: double top-plate, 15" 2X4 cripple studs, double 2X12 header over garage door opening). With the new beam in place, I propose to run new joists perpendicular to the existing joists hung from the new center beam via joist hangers on the west end and resting on the east wall top plate on the east end. The approximate span on these new joists will be 12 feet or so.
So, is there too much load being transferred to the center of the header above the garage door opening? Does the construction of the north wall above the garage door (top plate - cripple studs - header) serve to spread the load more evenly aceross the header, or does the load essentially transfer straight down on the center of the header? Could I beef-up the header by adding a 3rd 2X12 to the "sandwich?"
Edited 12/13/2005 12:36 pm ET by rsquared
Sorry - tried to edit the attachment and deleted it instead.
Can't open it for some reason. Try a jpg or tif format.
From the "sound" of it, the load transfered to the header will be 1/2 of what I previously mentioned, or about 1500 lbs. Still a lot to put in the center of a header, unless sized for it. Adding the 2x12 to the header should make it ok, but I would like to see your attached file first.
Also, what will the new 2x12 sit on at the ends? You might want to consider a 2x on the flat anchored to the exist jack studs, but that could interfere w/ your door track. Check it out.
Not sure which format is more universal, so here it is as both
Great job. It is as I thought. The total load will be about 1650 lbs. This is based on 40/sf live load which is more than the usual 25 to 30 for "attic storage". I know what is in my attic, so I usually spec for 40.
Total load = 12' X 11' x 50 lbs (40 live + 10 dead) = 6,600 lbs
Half the floor load is transferred to the new beam =3,300 lbs
Half of the new beam load is transferred to the exist header =1650 lbs as a point load.
For a 16' span, a 2x12 should carry it providing that you lag it to the exist header staggered about every 12" or so, AND YOU SUPPORT BOTH ENDS of the new 2x12 w/ jack studs.
Thanks!
Just to be clear, the existing header is already a doubled-up 2X12, so we're talking about adding a 3rd 2X12.
Also, what about the load that the header is also carying from the existing joists in the NW quadrant? They are attached to the ledger which is attached to the studs that sit on the header.
Rob
Didn't say it was going to be easy.
You do need the 3rd 2x12. The other 2 are busy carrying the wall above.
Any floor loads that exist now are being handled by the 2- 2x12's. The 3rd is just for the point load of the new beam.
You will probably have to prop up the exist joists. cut the ends, and slip the new 2x12 behind them. Awkward....yes, impossible....no.
I have to wonder.....is 130 sq ft of storage space worth all that effort?
I think it works out to about 360 sq ft, but still a good question!
Given that it's a two car garage, could you live with a column in the middle just inside the door, supporting the North end of your new beam? If you're really lucky, a column there could also take some of the load off the existing header. Structurally it would help a whole lot, but it would require a bit more careful parking from now on.
-- J.S.
Given that it's a two car garage, could you live with a column in the middle just inside the door, supporting the North end of your new beam?
That is an option, but not one I would take. Despite not being up to code, a column in the center of a 16' entry door, IMHO, is not a good idea. It would be a pain at best, a dangerous situation at worst.
What will happen IF someone knocks the post out from under the loaded attic?
He would also have to cut out and reinforce the conc slab below the post to create a pad.
BTW, that is the type of fix that he is living w/ now.
Well, thanks for all the input and answers. It's been very educational, even if the end result is not the easy answer I had hoped for. Sure beats having it all come tumblin' down.
I'm gonna let this one sit for a while and move on to other projects. I'm going to hang some cabinets in the garage, which may moderayte my storage needs.
Thanks again!
Rob
> Despite not being up to code, ....
Really? What code prevents it? The real problem I just noticed is that the column would be in the way of opening the door. Even with a true roll-up, you'd have to put it back a couple feet into the garage. Couldn't you have two 8 ft. doors side by side?
> What will happen IF someone knocks the post out from under the loaded attic?
Of course you have to build the column strong enough that it'll win any contest with a motor vehicle. Such columns exist all over the place under apartment buildings around here. So far, I've never heard of anyone knocking one down.
The big problem with this design is that the new beam puts a big point load right in the middle of a long undersized header. A column there would sure help a lot.
-- J.S.
Hi John,
There are many ways to skin a cat. Some more practical than others.
Just because something may or may not be expressly prohibited by a specific code does not mean that it will be allowed, or that it should be done.
If, in your area, you can put a reinforced steel column in the middle of a 16' doorway and have it pass inspection, and an insurance co, more power to you.
Such columns exist all over the place under apartment buildings around here
Yes, I can design a post that can win a battle w/ a car, and have done them in the past (for fuel storage facilities at an airport ) but first.... I ask myself....does the post HAVE to be there? If yes, then we design it accordingly, if no, we use a different approach.
The point to keep in mind w/ this project is that the HO is trying to reframe an 11x12 STORAGE SPACE above his garage. Please look at the cost/benefit ratio. Would it really be prudent for me to help him design such a post, or incur the cost to change out the garage door for 2 - 8 footers, just so that he does not have to add an additional 2x12 header?
I have already expressed concern about the amount of trouble and cost involved for this storage space, and recommended that doing it at all be re-considered.
If, however, the HO wants to go ahead w/ the project, he now has two approaches from which to choose.
I was referring to the amount of trouble and expense you will incur to use the aforementioned 11'X12' (=132sf) area that will be re-framed, with the new beam and added header etc..
Still tryin' aintcha?11x11 requires suffiecient structure to support a live load of 2420# for minuimal storage space, non living space.your garage door header is like the rest of this job - barely sufficient to hold itself up. undersized for that span
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I'm really, really sorry, R², but I can't advise this in good conscience. Your thought and what Matt said "might" have some modest benefits, but woiuld take more work IMO, than just doing it right. The biggest problem with hanging from the rafters is that there is minimal support and engineering for the rafters to hold themselves up, let alone any added loads like snow or a plywood floor.Really stop and think about this. The way it is done is barely sufficient to hold itself together. By adding loads to it all, you drasticly increase the odds that someday your mother-in-law will suddenly find herself crushed under a ton of framing, sheetrock, and lumber...
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"The biggest problem with hanging from the rafters is that there is minimal support and engineering for the rafters to hold themselves up"
Not to mention that adding weight to the rafters would cause them to have more compression in them, causing the ends to want to spread the walls out. Since the ceiling joists aren't fastened well, this is yet another potential problem.
A constant dripping on a rainy day and a cranky woman are much alike! [Proverbs 27]
I think you pretty much nailed the whole scenario with your last post. Good observations. I'd have to say it looks like the garage was built using whatever was left for lumber/material at the end of the job. Packing out those 2x4's and what not looks like an attempt to make the lumber on hand "work" with those spans. Like the framer called for more lumber and the tightwad GC said "no way... use up that pile of old form lumber" or something. Maybe I've got an overactive imagination, but I bet I'm not too far off the mark.
I'd leave it alone and forget about the storage unless I had the money to do it right. It's a fairly small area, so it wouldn't cost too much to demo that ceiling system and then frame it again with 2x10's spanning parallel with the rafters which would give a much better storage floor system as well as strengthening the roof framing. Some board and mud and it's done. Since it's a garage under it'd be a great place to hone up some of those DIY skills. It being a garage also makes the demo mess a little more bearable.
Brian:
You said: >> frame it again with 2x10's spanning parallel with the rafters <<
I think he said the garage is 22'x22', with a steel beam down the middle. Joists span is 11'. So I'm guessing that the reason joists were run perpendicular to the rafters was so as not to have to span 22'.
Here is my solution:
1) tear down drywall ceiling. 2) add an additional 2x4 ledger above the existing one that is above the big door. Nail well to wall studs 3) stack 2 more 2x4s on top the the 3 that are already stacked on top of the beam. Nail well. 4) add joist hangers to all ceiling joist ends. 5) frame out attic opening as desired using doubles, joist hangers, etc. 6) Install 2x4s perpendicular the existing ceiling joists on top of them and laying flat so as to serve as rafter ties between the 2 non-gable end walls. These would have to be either 16" OC or 24" OC to support the floor sheathing. 7)install new floor sheathing and sheetrock below.
What do you think?
BTW - we wouldn't normally use 2x10s for an attic storage area that was not accessible via permanent stairs. 2x8, 11' span, 16" OC would be fine.
Yes Matt, I'm aware of the existing layout but just because it was framed that way the first time doesn't mean I agree that that's the best way. Personally, I'd still go with 2x10's and yes, I'd span the 22' direction. In MA I could use hem-fir 22'ers (which are readily available at local yards) and achieve the 20lbs per sqft live load required for this classification of space defined as "Limited attic storage where developement of future rooms is not possible".
I'd prefer to do it this way as it also increases the strength of the roof system by adding "walls ties" to the system to prevent ridge sagging/wall spreading. I figure that since we're both talking about tearing out the ceiling anyway, might as well frame a more conventional and trusted system instead of cobbling together additional ledger contraptions and what not.
Just my opinion. I'm sure your solution would work equally well too. Just different strokes for different folks.
DP - Gotcha. Mind getting back to use with a $# on a 22' 2x10? :-)
Yer right Matt. Better to save a few pennies and do it wrong....... again. You wanna keep nit-picking my suggestion or do you wanna admit that maybe it's not a bad idea?
EDIT: Just took a peek at what it would cost. Here in MA I pay $18.267 for a 2x10 SPF or HF 22'er. I don't know how much of this 22'X22' garage is storage space, but let's assume he wants to reframe the entire thing even though I know he's just looking to correct a portion of it. He'd need 17 of these joists to reframe the whole ceiling.
17 x $18.267 = $310.54 Yeah... that's a whopper of a framing bill to get the thing built right. Also keep in mind no ledgers are needed and no hardware/hangers etc. Oh yeah... and it's also the least labor intensive way. All that means that it's probably pretty much a wash with your suggestion.
"Here's a picture of how it would normally be framed"....... get over yourself.
Maybe it could be done a hair cheaper.... but I'm guessing that's how this whole mess started in the first place.
Edited 12/11/2005 5:52 pm ET by dieselpig
Edited 12/11/2005 6:45 pm ET by dieselpig
Bryan: I think I did say your method was best and, yes - that did come in cheaper than I thought. I'd have guessed about $28 each for those 2x10-22'ers since I think 16' SPFs are running me about $17, but I don't have access to any pricing info right now - that's all either at my office or on the other end of my radio. And, the fact that my method would require 2x4s and hangers would even narrow the price gap more - as you say, probably to a wash.
BTW - don't think I'm criticizing you personally. I thought we were just discussing.
The pics were just showing what would have been more conventional joist support - even if you don't like my rafter ties :-) (I'm guessing) "Wrong" is a pretty strong word though...
Matt.... don't become one of the passive aggressive types that are around here from time to time. It's fine if you disagree with me. But don't cut apart a suggestion and then fill a reply with cutesy emoticons like it's all good or something. You were determined to have something negative to say about my suggestion and you found it. Super. Then you went back to the OP and basically dismissed my suggestion like it was outrageously expensive and furthermore dismissed it as something less than a conventional prescription. Now you want to call it a discussion?
I'm wide open to discussions. But don't try to come in the back door with me and expect to not get called on it. Shoot from the hip with me and I'll extend the same courtesy to you. I have to wonder if this encounter isn't a carryover of resentments from a previous thread? If so, let's just drop it. I'm not here to argue and I'm sure you aren't either. Let's chalk it up to a misunderstanding and continue to explore multiple solutions to the problems that homebuilding can pose instead of bickering. Ok?
No prob. I thought we were just discussing. Peace - OK?
It's a done deal Matt. I'm sorry if we got off on the wrong foot.
I just wish I didn't live so dang far away from most all you guys - otherwise we all could just have a beer and find out that most everyone of us are down to earth people who are actually interested in our jobs enough that we would spend our personal time on it too.
How true. Don't miss the next Fest then. It's a great experience.
Even if he does all of that what about the header over the garage door?I wonder if it could handle the extra load. But this is way out of my league.
Good point about the header - we hadn't even visited that yet.
Rsquared: what is the garage door header, how long is it, and how many jack studs are under each end of it.
we've both seen the same GC - or they are still cloning the guy no matter how many times we hide him in the foundations
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>> we've both seen the same GC << Actually, here was my thought when I looked at the pics: He stated that the joist span was 11'. So, unless the GC just happened to have about seventeen 11' 2x8s laying around or he ordered 2x8-11's ;-) my bet is that the incredibly DA "carpenter" who put it together hadn't a clue as to what he was doing. It would have been so easy to put a ledger strip above the door, notched that end of each joist and just lapped the joists over top top of the beam... Actually it would have been easier to do it that way as opposed to the was done. Amazing!!! Then again, the GC should have rejected the work and had it re-done.
No doubt though, the whole thing is a total mess, and a radical re-build is in order if the space is to be utilized.
I generally try to discourage folks from using the garage "attic" space for storage. Whether it's a joist and rafter system or engineered trusses, they are usually sized to handle the spans involved - but not much additional dead load. When I've gotten involved in fixing sagging garage ceilings, the culprits have almost always been boxes of books, LP records, and/or Grandma's old china - lol.
I'm not sure what I'm seeing in your pictures, but if your joists are truely just toenailed into the 2x4's or 2x6's, I'm not sure I would even want to walk around up there - and I sure wouldn't put in a bunch of decking and boxes of "stuff" - lol