Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 04, 2000 08:12am | #1

   *
   What makes you think you make less than any of us? We sure as hell can't afford to hire each other.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 04, 2000 03:48pm | #2

   *Hell Jim, we can't even afford ourselves!!!!!!Gabe

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 04, 2000 04:43pm | #3

   *Right on Gabe!My wife wants me to take time off to finish some major projects on our house, but I can't afford to take the time off. So I guess that does mean I can't afford myself. John

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 04, 2000 05:19pm | #4

   *Hi Peter- I spent a year in Ithaca after college, so I have a sense of what your house goes through. First: vent your basement as well and in as many ways as you can. If you have closets or other available space on exterior walls, you can build insulated vent chases that come through the floor and exit the wall thereby circumventing the stone foundation. If the first floor is uninsulated, insulate it with un-faced batts. Second: install fans that vent outside in bathroom and kitchen. If you have a dryer and use its "Floridian" exhaust to warm the house in winter, don't; install a vent to outside. When showering, let the bathroom fill up with the warm mist while showering, but when you're done, turn on the fan with the door closed or wedged slightly ajar and exhaust the humidity to the outside. In the kitchen, turn on the vent fan when you're cooking and draining pasta, exhausting those big doses of humidity outside. As for the ceiling/roof: sounds to me like I'd strip int. & ext. and check and repair framing and sheathing. Inside, I'd check the 4" batts for loft, etc. Then, I'd install the thickest foil-faced rigid insulation you can afford across the underside of the rafters using washerhead nails or screws and fender washers. If this is installed carefully, bevelled where wall and ceiling meet, and the seams and margins are sealed with barrier tape, this becomes your vapor barrier. Next, screw furring strips along the interior of the foam board. Your new drywall is hung from these. This setup does two things: it isolates the drywall fasteners from expansion/contraction of the rigid foam (that'd cause pops,) it also provides an air-space. It might be argued that you'd want a vapor barrier to the interior of the furring strips, but this creates the dreaded "double vapor barrier," so you'd have to decide. This roof insulation system yields a synergic R-value. R-11/13 plus the R of the foam board plus the R of the air space plus the synergic value created when the living space and framing were separated by the rigid foam. This decreases markedly the conductive heat loss through the roof frame. As for a roof, I'd use 26 gauge galvalume in a corrugated pattern over a well-applied layer or two of 30lb. felt. Although derided by some, the corrugated pattern has advantages: it is generally available off-the-shelf though perhaps not in 26g., but chiefly, it inherently breathes well since hardly any of the panel lays flat against the roof deck. If the metal runs a couple inches past the fascia no drip edge is necessary. Also, if un-corrugated ridge cap with no closure strips is used the roof will breathe even better. The expected results of these modifications are: decreased damage to interior finishes due to controlling humidity, decreased heating bills and substantially reduced ice "damning," the result of controlling heat-loss and use of a modified cold-roof. If you were to use 3 or 4" rigid foam your house would go from having a roof with archaic R, to excellent, perhaps somewhere in the R-40's. Also, if the foam were glued to the rafters you would add a not insignificant amt. of strength and rigidity to the roof.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 04, 2000 06:26pm | #5

   *Freelance....huhGabe

2. 
   Andres_Peter | Sep 04, 2000 08:27pm | #6

   *
   Freelance, thanks for the input, time and thought. The only problem I have with your suggestions is the lack of interior space. The sloped sections of the ceiling meet the horizontal central portion of the ceiling at only 6'2" from the floor. The span of the flat area is only 6'6". The hand hewn beam at the top of the knee wall is exposed and an important visual element of the room. SO..... I don't want to give up any more interior space. Any other ideas?
   AS FOR YOU OTHERS (Jim, Gabe, JRS)..... if you make less than I do Perhaps you should be at work ???? (JOKINGJOKINGHAHAHAHANOOFFENSEMEANTHEYCALMDOWNIREALLYDOWANTYOURHELP)
   PETER

3. 
   Guest_ | Sep 04, 2000 08:47pm | #7

   *
   Peter,

   It's a holiday today and we're taking a break and enjoying life.

   Check the archieves, your concerns have been adressed a dozen times.

   :)

   Gabe

4. 
   Andres_Peter | Sep 05, 2000 12:19am | #8

   *
   Gabe,
   forgive me please. You don't know me or my dumb sense of humor; sometimes it doesn't work well without a voice. I know it is a holiday and recognize you all as intelligent, hard working individuals. I am new to the site and I did make an effort to look through the archives, though I must admit giving up after reading a lot of only somewhat related material. My hope was for specific direction, not general discussion. I also searched the indexes of my Fine Homebuilding collection and read everything I could about Ice dams, roofing materials, insulation, vapor bariers, air bariers etc. I did my best to educate myself in advance because I do realize that much of this discussion is redundant to you and others at this site. I tried to pose my request for help in a way that would make responding less of a burden and more situation specific.
   I did notice in looking through the archives that regulars to the site have said "enough" to the debates about the issues I am raising.
   I just want a couple nudges and some re-assurance before I spend a lot of time and money screwing up my home.
   So Gabe, I really mean it when I ask you to forget my attempt at humor. I also sincerely request your help. If you ever need help designing your glass blowing furnaces and annealing ovens, maybe I can reciprocate.
   again, sorry, Peter

5. 
   Guest_ | Sep 05, 2000 01:14am | #9

   *
   Oh fer cryin' out loud. We finally get somebody with a sense of humor askin' for help and now your apologisin' to Gabe.

   I laughed out loud when I saw your second post Andres, and I hope you get your questions answered. I only regret that I'm not able to help you out more myself.

   I do think though, that if you read and study what's been posted here and read up on waterproofing and air infiltration in the magazine, and read between the lines a little, I bet you'll be able to extrapolate all the info you need.

   Just from what you posted though, I think you realize the location of the house on the property seems questionable. I think that you'll be fighting a continual battle with moisture, no matter what products you apply, or techniques you use. If you're head over heels in love with this house, you might consider having it moved to another location on the property, and setting it on a proper foundation. At least you might be building real equity that way, instead of throwing good money after bad. Good luck.

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 05, 2000 02:23am | #10

   *Party's over, now back to work,Hi Peter,Option 1 works for me.Just make absolutely sure that the vb is continuous, especially at the intersection of the wall and ceiling. Overlap and tape the hell out of it. Double seal all outlets and pipes.With a metal roof you will be fine with this option.Gabe

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 05, 2000 03:46pm | #11

   *Freelance - let me guess - you're not a builder but you once spent the night at a Holiday Inn ...

1. 
   Guest_ | Sep 06, 2000 02:03am | #12

   *Andres, I'd go with option 1,too.You are getting a huge load of water vapor from your basement. The work you propose is good and necessary, but you sould consider a remedy for this problem as well, including the one Jim suggests, but there are other options as well.

6. 
   Peter_Andres | Sep 06, 2000 02:03am | #13

   *
   Please let me begin by briefly describing my home (or you can skip to the next paragraph). Weighing in at 1600 sq. ft. with construction from 1800, 1850 and 1900; this house has asthetic virtues coupled with a multitude of construction sins. Post and beam throughout, it sits on a dry laid stone foundation (a generous description). You will find the house at the lowest corner of our steeply pitched fourty acres with the basement dirt floor, the lowest point of all, sometimes below the water table.
   The difficulty I am currently grappling with is the ceiling/roof of the 18'x26' circa 1900 addition (the front of the home). The upper half story is a bedroom and bath. The ceilings are low, the rafters full 2x4s with 4 inches of fiber insulation (retro blown celulouse in the walls). There are three dormers. Ice damns (yes damns!), leaks,and wholesale vapor intrusion all come into play. The sagging drywall will be removed and the roof stripped, but where to go from there? Read the options below and comment with these considerations: 1, the house will never, never be dry, it will only be drier. 2, the house will never grace the pages of Fine Homebuilding, nor House Beautiful or Architectural Digest . 3, I make less money than you do and can not hire all the contractors you are going to recommend. Here we go....
   OPTION 1: Add an interior vapor barrier and re-drywall. On top of the 1" plank sheething, add 1 or 2x furring to vent a new metal roof (galvalume for Ithaca NY?) and prevent ice dams.
   OPTION 2: Remove the interior fiber insulation and use it elsewhere, re-drywall. On the exterior add a vapor barier topped with foam block insulation, furring and a new metal roof (galvalume for Ithaca NY?)
   .............Thanks in advance for your help, Peter .......................