Does anyone in the Mpls area have a construction/business/contract attorney they’re particularly happy with? Looking for someone to help with basic contract and possible incorporation as well as general business representation should the need arise.
Thanks in advance, Jack
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Replies
Where is Mpls?
Perhaps Minneappolis (SP)?It's Never Too Late To Become
What You Might Have Been
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Minnesota.Sorry...
You know, it's one of the twin cities of Minneapolis and Indianapolis.
What about triplets: Porkopolis?
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Jack,
I can tell you there are darn few around! Good ones that is.. Most of them talk a nice game but are afraid to really go to bat for a client because they don't want to offend the city attorney.. *that's usually a good gig and they'd like to be inline for the job when it opens up..
The really great ones who aren't afraid of a fight seem to charge three arms and a leg. Even if you look up the law and show it to them they will often fail to pursure it because they might offend someone important who could potentially be a better (read that as more lucrative) client..
Law school is all about learning the facts of the law and how it can be applied it's not about courtroom tactics or any of the critical stuff that wins cases.. Thus most attornies get experiance by trying your case in court and learning from their mistakes.. So if you lose, well,....he'll feel bad for a day, maybe..
I've spent several months finding attornies and none of them seem very agresive (except with regard their fees..)
Frenchy wrote: "Even if you look up the law and show it to them they will often fail to pursure it because they might offend someone important who could potentially be a better (read that as more lucrative) client"
Frenchy: I suspect that your problem with lawyers may have something to do with your lack of respect for them. Contractors don't react well when customers try to tell them how to do their work. The same is true for lawyers. A client looking up the law and asking my opinion gets my opinion, but if he tells me how to do my work, he gets my standard rant: "I don't tell you how to build a staircase, don't tell me how to question a witness."
As far as asking a lawyer to be "aggressive," that always translates into higher fees because it requires more time to file every possible motion, sue every possible person, etc. If a contractor tells you that a floor system using 2x10s @16" on center will do the job, but you want 2x12 @ 12," you'll pay more for the more "aggressive" framing. The same is true for lawyers. We also know that there is a difference between looking out for our client's best interests and pissing off the judge.
In any event, anyone looking for a lawyer should get a referral from someone else in the same business.
smalaw
You made several good points. You do however not have the correct assumption.. I respect attorney's right up to the point were I've presented my case and I get ambiguous answers except regarding fees and payment of them..
I like clear definitive statements. That case can be won, that case can't be won..
Comments like, "That is an interesting case, or that case has merits." and my favorite, "I'll certainly do my very best.."
I'd be perfectly willing to pay more for a successful attorney but so far I've never found any correlation with fees charged and results produced..
I tried the referral method and everybody refers their own attorney. Nobody so far has said hire Counselor Smith because he really ate my attorneys lunch.
I do agree with you regarding the point of pissing off a judge, yet some attorneys shop for judges while others take which ever judge is assigned..
As for looking up the law, I'd expect any attorney I hire to know the law well enough to not only know the law but to be able to cite cases that were won and lost based on that law and why.. That is after all what we are paying for,... knowledge. A major warning sign to me is, I don't know but I'll look it up!.. I realize that with West Publishing a lot of data can be found but the "expert" should know where it applies and how..
Frankly any case that leads to court you've already lost. In a perfect world you'd have your attorney at your elbow and he'd help you avoid all potential litigation...
Waterbear - Basic incorporation is pretty simple stuff. So is business set-up. Ask your accountant who he recommends. If you don't have one, ask family and friends. For what you are doing, most general practitioners with some grey hairs could probably handle it. Is there a guy/gal in town whose name has been around for 20 years?
If you are looking for a construction specialist, try the local chapter of the American Institute of Architects. I used to keep an associate membership for just that type of situation. Or, if you are working with architects/builders - ask them. If you go with a specialist, you will probably pay more for the knowledge.
There's also a set of books out there called Martindale-Hubbel. They list and categorize lawyers. You can research them there.
Don
Thanks Don,I know incorporation is pretty simple, I'd just like to get this contract work and incorporation taken care of at the same time, and it seems to me like a better use of my time to do what I do and pay someone
else to do what they do -especially when it comes to legal stuff. In any case I think I found someone, thanks to a lawyer relative and some local publications.
I have always followed a few rules when choosing a corporate-type attorney.
One. Interview them just as you would an employee. You are interviewing a general counsel... only it is an outsourced general counsel. Check references, look up the attorney with the Supreme Court in your state to see if any disciplinary action has been taken, do a google and AskJeeves search to gain any info that may be available, etc. Lookup the attorney's name with the local county's clerk of courts... not for the cases he has had... but to see if he has been sued (it's expected that an attorney may have one or two dissatisfied clients that might file suit... but a pattern of lawsuits against him is not a good sign).
Two. Be sure that he does a thorough conflict search. Last thing you want is an attorney that has to clear a bunch of conflicts before he can do a simple letter for you. Yea... it's all nice and wonderful to have an attorney that has lots and lots of construction related clients... but if he has direct conflict with your GCs, subs, etc.... he will be limited in his ability to do work that is predicated on relationships that conflict.
Three. Higher rate does not equate to better lawyer. In addition... ask very direct questions about billing policies. 15 minute billing increments are not uncommon... but I had one yayhoo that thought that 15 minutes was a foreign concept. Never got a bill from the guy with any less than full-hour billings. This gets expensive in a hurry.... especially when you get charged a full hour for a 2 minute conversation!
On the same note... see if his/her hourly rate is STRICTLY for his time... or does it include the "office expenses" associated with his/her work. Again... same yayhoo above sent me a bill where the office expense for "copies" exceeded his billing for the work! I have no problem with some extra billing when it is warranted... but it needs to be reasonable (and that is defined by you, and no one else). For my 2 cents.. I would rather get a little higher rate and not be nickeled and dimed to death... but that is just me.
Four. Gut feelings. All things equal... follow your gut. But ONLY after all other things are equal.
Five. You don't always want the most aggressive dog in the kennel (aggressive = expensive over the long haul). You want the best temperament.. with teeth big enough to get the job done when needed. Most corporate attorneys are not going to be pit bulls. Their job is to keep you in compliance and keep you OUT of court. If you find a corporate attorney that does a lot of heavy-duty court-room work... run! A good corporate attorney, typically, will have another associate that does the "heavy-lifting" courtroom work. A good collections attorney IS NOT necessarily a good corporate attorney.
Six. And this is just a superstition of mine. Look at his/her shoes. If they are wearing the shiny "in your face" shoes... don't hire 'em. I have never had any luck with an attorney that was so anal that he had his/her shoes polished to a spit-shine continually. Yea yea... sounds stupid... but I am batting 100% on this criteria. Show me a lawyer with a pair of shoes with a matted finish... I'll give them some time to see if they can earn my business.
I have asked my business associates to do the same thing when they complain about their attorney (or rave about him/her)... and it still holds up. Not 99%... 100%. Have no other explaination... other than the "anal retentive" thing.
Seven. Listen for "circular discussion" when talking to your attorney. What I mean by this is an attorney that gives you 30 different scenarios for a simple question. If he/she does this... run! Instead... they should ask specific questions to narrow the scope of the question. This saves you time... allows him/her to provide better answers... and keeps you out of the looney bin!
Eight. Look for confidence... not arrogance. There is a fine line between the two. An arrogant attorney will torpedo deals... a confident attorney will facilitate deals.
Nine. Referrals are great... but ask more questions than just "is he a good attorney". Ask what the attorney has done for the referring source... and how much it cost (it never hurts to ask). Ask about specialties. Ask how they came to know him/her (if I had a dime for every time I head "he's my wife's second cousin"....).
Ten. As a small business... you are looking for a "corporate generalist". They can handle the basics... and can work with you to keep out of court. Your corporate attorney will NOT be your work-comp attorney, nor your real-estate attorney, nor your adoption attorney, nor your criminal, personal injury, or divorce attorney (heaven forbid you need one). A good corporate attorney will be a C-O-R-P-O-R-A-T-E attorney... period (well, they do assist with tax and estate with corporate structures, etc... but that is not the primary focus of their business).
I have yet to find the "perfect attorney". Heck... I have yet to find an attorney that I would even call "great" (but one was close). Attorneys get a bad name for two reasons... because there are bad ones... and the expectations are set sooooo high for attorneys that there is no way any one of them can live up to it. Find a "good" attorney that knows his/her limitations... and isn't afraid to tell you what they are... and you are on the right track.
Good luck in your quest.
Edited 8/15/2005 2:05 pm ET by RichColumbus
Wow, that's a pageful! Great common sense advice, but it's nice to see it all spelled out in a neat list. I'm going to print this off and stick in my legal file for the next time I have to meet with a prospect. The comment about the shoes strikes home; I once had a client tell me she hired me for the job in part because I showed up in my scuffed red wings and work gear rather than khakis and loafers.Thanks, this'll come in handy.
Excellant summation Rich!
blue
I rest my case! LOL