Been a lurker of several forums for a while now, but from what I saw this past weekend, piled on top of past legal experiences has convinced me in graduating to a poster. The wealth of information on these forums is priceless, but have yet to find an answer for this one.
This is happening all to much.
Somebody or some product screws up. The party responsible refuses to except their responsibility and drags everyone that had anything to do with the project into the lawsuit simply because they know they can and it works. They know if they file cross suits and drag the others (contractors, architects, subs, mailman, kitchen sink…) into the lawsuit, it will cost these individuals less money to contribute to a settlement, rather than the expense for them to prepare and be dragged into trial. Ok, most of us are insured for this, but not only will you have to pay your insurance deductible, when all is said and done you either get canned by your insurance company, and good luck finding a new insurer, or your rates skyrocket. Is there no way to protect our selves from this blatant abuse of the legal system? This has also happened to several contractors I know, It’s happening everywhere. Just this past weekend I saw it again. I went on a new alternative home tour and saw a very unique and beautiful new home where the construction was halted because of this legal abuse. The new windows and doors have defects and leak. The manufacturer has been unable to adequately fix them. The new windows and doors have to be completely removed and replaced. The manufacturer won’t step up to the plate and take responsibility for the financial damage their product has caused. The homeowner is forced to sue the window manufacturer and even though allof the discovery showed the windows and doors were defective, the manufacturer turns around and sues every sub they can to try and lessen their financial obligations and exposure in settling the matter. I was told this Manufacturer even sued their own distributor. Who is safe? What a crime! It’s no wonder insurance rates are so ridiculous. The only recourse I can think of for a contractor is to no longer spec that company’s product on any future jobs. Or if it’s an individual that is libel and drags you in, don’t associate with them further. But what about all the innocent others who might be involved? Stucco contractor, painting contractor, mason, sales/distribution, architect… How can they retaliate? And the biggest victim, the homeowner, in this case they can’t even move into their new home while these litigation games go on for years. I praise them for not laying down, they are fighting back with a website and post on some of these forums. But how many homeowners and building professionals have the time to build gripe-websites every time there is a dispute? I have heard that contractors and subs who are dragged into cases like this can sue for malicious prosecution, but then you are spending even more time and money on this ridiculous legal circus! Is there any way an architect, contractor, or sub, can protect themselves from this cancer to the construction industry. I know this is happening on the west coast, is it happening in all states?
Any insight?
Replies
Yes, we need to quit our jobs and become attorneys. They seem to all keep eachother employed!
I don't have any answers but Iv'e seen it happen and know yout frustration. There was a time when it seemed more fashionable for a corporations and individuals to take responsibilty for themselves.
Maybe I'm just an old fart!
JB is this case referring to the Kolbe & Kolbe case-leakywindows.com?
Vic
Vic,
Yes it is. But I believe they are building a entirely new site.
Heard on the radio this morning about a lawsuit filed against GM.
Pro football player wrecked his Suburban, wasn't wearing seatbelt, thrown from vehicle and paralyzed.
Died several weeks later.
Estate is suing GM.
Joe H
readers digest has a regular feature called That's Outragous where the post short articles about outragious situations
they posted on that i don't understand why it was there but anyway.
this happened in Maa 16 year old was killed when he somehow drove a golfcart into a deck, i believe. He was working for the golf course at the time. his boss knew he was driving, but didn't know about the law about operating. apparently there is a Ma law that says he shouldn't have been driving the golf cart because he wasn't 18. the parents are suing the golf club board of directors and the golf cart manufacturer. golf course was fined for not reporting the accident in a timely fashion.
the article confused me. Believe that there is a Ma law about not operating machinary until you are 18 at a job.
don't know if the kid was playing golf for recreation if he wasn't suppose to operate a golf. you can get your drivers permit at 16. liscense at 16.5.
i'm not sure what was outragious, I can understand the bosses not knowing, if at 16 you can operate carts when playing golf, but not working? what about a job where they drive a car, like pizza delivery?_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Here is what is outrageous about the digest posting: Ma. I am suprized that in that state they allow anyone to do anything; except to murder people (by drowning) and walk away scot-free!!The undisciplined life is not worth examining.
It is even worse than that.
The weather was extrememly bad and cars where going very slow, those that could even move.
Thomas went zipping around them, if I remember it might have even been above the posted speed limit (for good road conditions).
Clee had a point when he said the lawyers keep each other employed. They are all in bed together. When your talking corporation, insurance companies, lawyers, and a lawsuit, your dealing with a lot of bottom feeders with their hands in everyones pockets. When a once small company like Kolbe and Kolbe grows into a decent size corporation, things are gonna change and they tend to give up careing about the little guy anymore. Sounds like Kolbe is swimming at the bottom of the pond with the rest of them. Clee is right, its not like it used to be. What is the URL to that website the plaintiffs built?
I don't know the url to the new site they are building but the existing one is:
http://www.leakywindows.com
JB ... are you involved in the lawsuit or the website ... or are you a spectator passing on information?
I looked at the leakywindows web site, but could not get past the first page because the rest is password protected.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed, I'm spectating. I toured this home this past weekend and am using it as an example of how ridiculous our legal system is. Fortunately I am not getting sued at this time but it's getting to the point where I'm paranoid to get involve in any project unless I have full control over every aspect of the job. Problem is we still don't have complete control over the quality of everything including the products. Every manufacturer is capable of a screw-up now and then but that's not the issue here. The issue is how these screw-ups are being addressed, and how our legal system is allowing the burden to be spread to innocent parties. The only solution I see is a legal system where the party filing the lawsuits is responsible for all expenses incurred by the other parties if they lose those lawsuits. Don't they have this in England? I can guarantee there would be a drastic reduction in lawsuits if this were the law. I think the website is under construction. I praised the homeowners because of their effort to fight back this way, especially because they are utilizing one of the few aspects of our law I still respect, freedom of speech.
T. Roosevelt, great quote!
JB,
Having a losing plaintiff pay sounds good, but I suspect it would intimidate the honest little guy fighting a big guy more than it would intimidate the sleazebags who are out to get rich. The sleazebags would be likely to figure they could find a way to avoid paying.
I've been the little guy in a small matter once, and I found that (at least in that part of Texas), the big guys pretty much had a lock on the local system. They were able to get out of paying a fair settlement simply because we couldn't afford to continue fighting.
All the publicity about big outrageous lawsuits tends to obscure the fact that lawsuits are one of the few ways the little guy has of fighting abuses by the big guy. Since the little guy generally can't afford to outspend the big guy on lawyers, the little guy is already at a disadvantage.
I could see having a provison for applying your remedy if a lawsuit was proven to be unfounded, unreasonable, and malicious, (read: sleazebag) but not as an across the board solution.
Dave
That is why we have a mediation or arbitration clause in our contracts. Nobody wins in court but the suits. How can a window manufacturer get a carpenter in the mix if the carpenter followed the manufacturers instructions and did not alter the product? Most manufacturers will fix or replace the product. This of course does not include anything else that is associated with it, installation, paint or property damage. This company apparently put out a bad product. Woodworking ain't easy.
Looks like the homeowners are fighting the fight, but when dealing with these lawsuits they also need to play the game.
Just a thought.
Have they played the toxic mold card? If all the original windows and doors have to be removed because they leak, I'm assuming the damage is substantial and Kolbe's insurance is involved. These attorneys are usually on staff and never in a hurry to give their employer's money away. They will try and bleed you to death. The website might help the homeowners and other cross defendants put pressure on Kolbe, it would sure scare me away from using their windows, but probably does nothing to push the insurer. The insurance carrier could care less about the website, but if there is toxic mold involved, that tends to make the insurers very nervous and want to get rid of the case. Tell the homeowners to get some toxic mold testing done by a licensed professional. Here are a few sites where they can learn more. If it fails to put pressure on the insurer now, it will still most likely be useful information when it comes to trial.
http://www.legallawhelp.com/safety_and_health/toxic_mold/
http://www.environmental-law.net/html/mold.html
JB, Ed, Lazy, and others.
Up until now the Leakywindows.com web site has been password protected and restricted from the public. I removed the Password protection and now the majority of the site is open. If you are still interested in this information regarding Kolbe & Kolbe's defective and leaking products, and their horrific treatment to their customers:
http://www.leakywindows.com
Regards,
Gordon
AKA Fighter
The web site is not ready for prime time to put it mildly.
The background makes some of the text unreadable.
If you click on Enter it takes you to a listing of couple of the directories.
If you click on Click Here it takes you to an "agreement page".
The window with the terms and condition is very small for the amount of text and there is no way to really read and comprehind it. If there was anything inthere important it would never hold up in court.
And the "I Agree" on the Enter button is very hard to read, bad choise of colors.
Then after Entering the next page the text is all laid out wrong.
It does not wrap at the end of the line, but rather at some fixed point, unless I make it some microscopic font size.
And there is not WHITE SPACE. No one is going to wade through that mess of letters.
Also if the text is not microscopic then it also overflows the page and the text overlays the stuff at the bottom of the page.
Note - people with all different resolution of screens and browsers will look at this.
Just because you can read it does not mean that anyone else can.
Bill,
I'll be the first to admit I'm no Webmaster!
I'm working on it. Could you check it in 20 minutes (or whenever you get the chance) and give me some more input. I checked it on two computers here and the text works fine. I will try some things.
You can email me at [email protected]
Thank you!
Gordon
This is much, much better.
But I am not a fan of scrolled text windows in general. You end up scrolling the page and then the text with in it.
But you need WHITE SPACE.
You need paragraphs and you need section headers. Something to break up what appears to my eye as just a string of letters. Makes it very hard to read.
And that combined with the "green" background and the white scroll window makes it look like a bunch of back letters swiming in a sea of peasoup.
All of it just fine...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Wow! Great House! Even if you could care less about the Kolbe stuff the pictures of your home were worth seeing. I have heard of straw bale construction but always pictured little huts in third world countries. My ignorance! Looking forward to your posting of more photos. Thanks for the tour.
I agree with clee, excellent design and construction -- I hope you manage to move in before your youngest graduates!
Just a little niggle -- I found the cartoon characters slightly incongruous, given the seriousness of the subject.
IanDG
IanDG,
You are right, this is a very serious problem. We have been drug through this nightmare for so long now that the animations were an attempt to show people I still have my chin up. That probably is not obvious to viewers who don't know me (which are the majority) so I removed the cartoons.
Thank you for the complementary words on the construction, and for your input on the site.
Regards,
Gordon
http://www.leakywindows.com
To make your posts a lot more readable please hit return after about 5 or so lines. It really helps! You do not have to worry about proper paragraph structure. If you blink while reading you can find where you were a lot better. :-)