auto-temp rain water green shower HELP!
To ALL & plumber_bob don’t fail me now…….
Goal is to have a country boy’s outdoor spa.
Rain barrel painted black….more like a raised cistern….huge capacity
That will feed a large water heating solar panel….big enough to contain sufficient capacity of hot water for a leisurely outdoor shower. All gravity fed. Hand pump will fill the cistern in the event of limited rainfall.
Want temp to be self adjusting around 104 +/- 2 degrees.
So do I use an electric solar panel to charge a small battery pack to control some flow valves and digital temp sensors or could we go with some sort of bimetal devices that would automatically through their own properties open and reduce water flow from the solar panels and bypass from the cistern to combine and make the right temps.
The idea is to build within junkhounds budget and put in the necessary labor to exhibit such quality that it’ll work for the next 50+ years.
Replies
Ever used one of those camp showers with the black plastic bag out in the sun?
Did you know you can burn your posterior (will adze be ####ed?), the water gets that hot on 100 degree days.....
Going camping this weekend, first time as a family....
I'm stoked but...jeez, gotta get early Saturday to get to soccer pics, then soccer game then watch the Girl Scouts in the Fall parade then sell popcorn at the church on Sunday....
I'm tired already....
Lefty-This tagline removed due to the prevelance of the humor impaired.
Edited 9/23/2009 12:06 pm by leftisright
sell popcorn at the church on Sunday....
Must be a good sermon.............
edit: do the pews have cupholders?
copper p0rn
Edited 9/23/2009 1:09 pm ET by seeyou
>>do the pews have cupholders?<<
Actually, my church, yes.
8 cupholders per pew, neatly grouped and spaced in pairs.
Oh, you mean regular cup holders not the tiny communion glasslet size......
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I wish, it's selling popcorn for the Cub Scouts after the service....
But the church is in a richie rich area and lotsa grandfolks with lotsa money....put some cute kids in front of them in unform....say ka ching!
Just got the word on the Girl Scouts, cookie goal this year is 125 boxes PER girl!Lefty-This tagline removed due to the prevelance of the humor impaired.
Just have another shaded barrel for air temp water, with a "t" and valve so you can adjust the temp. Hoof friendly, of course.
You don't have to go all hi-tech on our country adzes...
If one knew how to do the calculations, it would be probably possible to design a system such that the temperature gradient within the tank would change and kill the gravity feed of the panel after a certain temp was reached.
But maybe simpler would be something akin to those thermometers you can buy in gift shops where the little glass balls rise and fall with temperature. They're basically sensing the change in the density of the water, and so one could rig a float that rose and fell similarly, and have it block the flow to the solar panel when it rises.
Hi Dan,
But maybe simpler would be something akin to those thermometers you can buy in gift shops where the little glass balls rise and fall with temperature. They're basically sensing the change in the density of the water, and so one could rig a float that rose and fell similarly, and have it block the flow to the solar panel when it rises.
Now there's a really neat idea.....I wonder how quickly they could react.....dag gone I like creative thinking....I got a mule huh .....I'm excited now.......
View Image
Yo, Pedro!I'm having terrible internet service today, always happens when it rains.DanH, does have a good concept, passive control would be nice and easy.But I'll be checking things out too.pb
Pedro,
Okay, I've done some checking, but the details of your shower are a tad sketchy. So I'm going to assume that there will be cold water available to mix with the hot water,(like how a normal shower is done), if this is the case, I'll also assume that for some reason the manual control ain't in the plan. So now I'm looking a a temperature controlled mixing valve, like the one on most cars, (Thermostat), only it would have to operate at lower temps of course.
Using a mixing valve will probably require the hot water temp to be above the 102-104 degree window, for the valve to actuate, and below that it would only pass water from the hot side.
Now I need to know if I'm on the right track, or is the shower I envision not right?
pb
Hi pb,
Using a mixing valve will probably require the hot water temp to be above the 102-104 degree window, for the valve to actuate, and below that it would only pass water from the hot side.
Yea, you've got it.....matter of fact here's the quick sketch.....the water tower will be dark to assist in pre-heating water but I can't imagine in the mountains that it will be warm enough....so two lines will come out of the water storage, one for the cold side and the other will feed a roof solar panel for hot output.
View Image
View Image
Pedro,Okay, let me see here if I got this right. While the system is not in use, the water may get very very hot. But once you call for hot water, the temperature of the hot water will drop, requiring the blend of cold water to change accordingly. And you don't want to be covered with soap and adjusting valves.Are you dedicated to using a solar panel type heater?
If so, tell me what you can on the capabilities of the panel?Any info, good or bad may be of help.pb
Hi pb,
Are you dedicated to using a solar panel type heater?
Yep....burns no fuel sources, quiet and free
If so, tell me what you can on the capabilities of the panel?
Ain't got a clue <grin>......this is country boy guessin' stuff......I figure I'll build a treated wood frame, sloped and angled toward the sun...fixed
Next I'll cover it with black metal roofing of some sort, box the sides and cover the bottom and sides with foam sheeting. Drop in a bunch of copper tubes and wind them from top to the bottom, soldering with "no lead" solder.
Cover with old sliding glass doors and seal.
So ambient temp water out of the rain barrel will enter the top and come out the bottom warmer than it started, in the mean time another line will come out of the supply and not enter the solar panel to temper the solar output.
All of this is stuff I know will work but no clue how good....might come out as steam and burn my fur off..........just the idea of this reminds me of people with no experience and fused hydrogen balloons.......
View Image
Pedro!Hehehe, you're a funny mule! heheheNow here in Kentucky, you only need that water tank in the image you posted. Then you put three Petticoat Junction, type honeys up in it!
No Solar panel, no need for a shower head/ The waters always right, with that set up,... you shouldn't mind a nice long bath. Okay, but on yer side of the fence, the laws of physics are,... well more main stream I expect.Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like you are in the early stages of this project. Some questions: Do you already have some materials? Have you checked into other types of solar water heaters, (still talking home made)?So far I'm in the dark about temperature fluctuations. So lets consider that your panel is gonna get water hot enough to burn skin or close to it. Now, we need a 'fail safe' way of controlling the mixture. Or something that only allows gradual changes in temperature to occur so if it goes haywire, you'll have time to realize it before you singe yer hair. Yep a pressure balancing valve, in an 'in house' shower, but this is a gravity fed system, low pressure in order to keep the whole darn system simple, right?I'll post this much for now to see what you think of this much, if I'm on track so far, then we'll talk about some simple solutions, I hope! :-)pb
Then you put three Petticoat Junction, type honeys up in it!No Solar panel, no need for a shower head/ The waters always right, with that set up,... you shouldn't mind a nice long bath.
Mrs. Mule doesn't allow me to do that anymore......been all our married and dating years since I did that sort of thing.....Mrs. Mule makes it easy for me to forget those times though <mulish grin>.
looks to me like you are in the early stages of this project
The pic I posted is the first time it's moved past my noggin'......gonna be for the near future retirement farm project....some luxury amongst hard work.
Do you already have some materials?
Very little for this project....none worth really considering. Once we've got this rascal down pat, I'll start collecting for it.
other types of solar water heaters
Not looked at all.....I figure for a summer use project that I need to concern myself more with costs than perfected engineering efficiency......if this was going on the roof of the house for year round use I'd be looking to spend whatever was necessary. I plan for most of the projects use to be when I'm "not" feeding the wood fired boiler that I'll be heating the house with.
Simplicity would point to an easily available mixing valve and simply adjust it to whatever the season laid upon me but I thought it would be cool to be able to dial in whatever temp I wanted.....but still want the whole system to be simple.
I figure I'll bow top the barrel and drain the whole thing out of the shower head or release valve each fall.......once I can't stand outside wet any longer.
View Image
Yo, Pedro,>>>".I figure for a summer use project that I need to concern myself more with costs than perfected engineering efficiency......"<<<I'm not talking about expensive alternatives, as a matter of fact some could be cheaper and better, I'm not sure tho. For example, Mother earth news had one I saw awhile back that used 3 water heater vessels in a box like you mentioned building, double window type front, and all other sides insulated. Anyway, let me do some thinkin' and checkin', I should have some simple, passive ideas for controlling the water temp, for you sometime before lunch time tomorrow, or earlier, I hope.pb
Yo Solar Plumber,
I should have some simple, passive ideas for controlling the water temp, for you sometime before lunch time tomorrow, or earlier, I hope.
No rush......gotta couple more years to collect stuff and put it together.....a few hours or days ain't gonna stress me too much.....
I wonder if junkhound would send me plumbing parts from his singlewide find.........
View Image
Built one of those about 4 years ago, down in TX at a buddy's ranch. Used a modified aquarium pump powered by a small solar PV panel. Circulated the water, kept the temp even so there were no hot/warm/cold thermal gradients as you showered. There was no need for a mixing valve to temper the hot water.
Mongo has the right idea. If all you want this for is a shower, put a thermostat (aquastat) in the barrel. Water gets cold, pump turns on, solar heater works, barrel gets to temp, pump shuts off.
Panel HAS to be a drain down style, way to easy to get burnt.
Just go back from a class on solar. If you want to do some high end stuff, get ready to stroke a check.
Assuming you only want one barrel up there and everything is going to be gravity fed.
Use a conventional hot/cold mixing valve, the hot supplied by the outlet of the solar heating panel, the cold tied in directly to the bottom of the barrel. Barrel contents shouldn't get all that hot, even here in NC - Raleighite here.
Can't get much simpler than that, and the simpler the fewer problems.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
Couldn't do that here in Texas. I've seen the water in 55 gal plastic barrels in Trombe walls get way hotter than 104 deg. Heck, I've seen days you could darn near boil an egg in a windmill trough, and that's galvanized.
Hi gdc,
Use a conventional hot/cold mixing valve
That would probably be the simplest "smart" workable solution...but I'm all for the high end techie stuff with limited moving parts......I hope to have a modern day sweet spa using old world materials....sort of trying to do the impossible cool thing! We have an on demand lp water heater now with digital temp control so I got to thinking it would be pretty awesome to have that kind of control by dialing in a number rather than adjusting a valve setting to a different point as the temps rise and fall throughout the mountian summers.
Basically work my tail off developing a one time solution so I can be lazy from that point forward.....that's pretty typical of my personality <grin>
even here in NC - Raleighite here
This project will end up in southwest Virginia where we'll retire so the temps will be a little lower.....so you moved from Westport to Raleigh?......Welcome! How long have you been in these parts....I'm between you and Fayetteville.
View Image
Pedro,
Here's one that's pretty close to what your talking about:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Renewable-Energy/1979-09-01/A-Homemade-Solar-Water-Heater.aspx
It's smaller scale but sounds like it worked for that guy. Plus if you built a small one, say next summer or so, you would get a good idea of how much system size you need.
And if his solar collector wasn't big enough, it would be easy to hook to another one. Also with the size of collector he built I think you could bring it on the move.
Anyway, check the link, it might be the ticket, or close.
pb