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My thoughts on software and hardware is simimlar but I want to point out a few shortcomings. We use both R14 and LT and while the LT is maybe better for learning (and the initial post said these are folks that have little experience), there are some features missing from LT that really bother me — like No “layer manager.” Atleast, I haven’t been able to find it. The Layer Manager is essential if you have complex drawings because it helps you navigate through the layers w/ just a click of the mouse. For that reason alone I’d go w/ R14. You may be able to get R14 way cheaper now than before, and I’ll tell you one more thing; If there are as many “bugs” in the initial release of 2000 as there were in the early versions of R14 then it would pay to buy the solid R14 and upgrade to 2000 in a couple of years.
As far as the hardware is concerned we’ve had a little bit of a problem around here recently and we’ve traced to our Gateway2000 computers. It seems that the Video Card that is installed in their standard packaged computer is called a Voodoo Card. This type of card is used by other manufacturers, or should I say ‘assemblers’ of computers, Dell might be another one that uses it. I’d steer clear of that Card. It seems that it is made for 3d video games more than the quick display of ‘panning’ around in drawings. Cadence magazine did a recent review of video cards in a relatively recent issue. I’d go hunting for one of those. More RAM is what we’ve been adding to keep up w/ the pace of things.
Good Luck,
Phil
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I realize that this is probably far off-course from the original question Joe, but...
Why would anybody insist on ACAD these days? They have fallen almost to the bottom of the heap, with regard to capabilities and risen to the top with regard to high price and restrictions. There are far more capable programs, at far less cost, with far greater ease of learning/use, especially for new users.
In my position as an Owner's Agent and Project Director (and an Architect with 25+ years of private practice), I deal with a large number of A/E offices and I frequently have the opportunity to discuss CAD systems and software with them. I find that more and more, they (at least the Architectural side) are moving away from AutoCAD. Many of the lesser-known programs are exhibiting greater capability with the added benefit of being less expensive. They are fully capable (in most instances) of translating their documents to/from the "standard" .DXF/.DWG formats that even ACAD doesn't seem to be able to deal with consistently. (Let's see here...if you have an early version of R14, it's not readable by a later version?...or so I've been told. And R12 can't read 8, and 14 can't read 11...or??? How utterly silly, I think.)
And with regard to hardware: anybody paid any attention to the new "speed champions"? I understand that the new Macintosh G4 chip runs circles around the fastest Pentiums (even those not yet in production?), and they are certainly far superior for graphics-oriented users. I would think that anyone looking to be productive with their time would want the very quickest machinery that they could get.
Maybe your son needs to do a bit more research on a broader scale? (And my apologies for muddying the waters, but this has become a prevalent theme from a number of the firms doing work for me, of late...maybe indicative of a real sea change.)
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Except for the video card problems mentioned above, most high end systems with lots of RAM should be serviceable - computers have largely become interchangeable commodities these days.
The one thing that has bothered me on cad and graphics systems has been the monitors - it may just be my hangup, but I like lines that are supposed to be straight to appear straight on the screen. I would get the largest, flattest, highest resolution monitor I could find and then check each one out with a pattern on the screen that showed straight lines near the edges.
A few years ago I bought a number of "top of the line" 17" monitors and found that while most of them would give a reasonably straight line on the screen (when it was supposed to be straight), a couple of them had some "barrel" and/or "pin cushion" distortion near the edges. On one in particular, what was supposed to be a straight line near the top of the screen hooked down about 1/4" near the right edge.
I am particularly bothered by the flicker in some monitors, but that shouldn't be as much of a problem with high end monitors. If possible, you will want to try the monitors in the room where they will be used, I found one occasion where certain monitors looked great in one room but in another room with different florescent fixtures interacted to give a pronounced flicker.
There are also some specialized input devices such as high resolution mice, mice with a cross hair attachment for tracing over paper drawing, tablets, etc. that you might want to check out. However, you can always do this later after you have the systems running.
*Thanks for all this info. The Autocad2000 is a "Voice from above" but I don't know that there is any real reason for the choice, or any committment to that particular program. The intended use is interior design of model homes.It sounds like this program is waaaaaaaaaaaay more than what is needed for the mission. And the big bucks might be better spent on bigger monitors. (my 19" sure doesn't look as big as it used to!)The hardware is what he asked me about, but I think maybe the software advice is going to be of more interest as far as keeping the current workflow going. A program that can't be put to use quickly will really screw things up, not speed up the process. Thanks for the ideas, He has a couple weeks before he buys so any other thoughts are welcome. Joe H
*Joe,I have been using AutoCAD for years. Started with R9 and worked up through to R12. Recently upgraded to R14 and bought a (new to me) used computer. I have the following:AMD K6 processor - 233 MHz64 meg RAM4 meg video ramsome cheapo video card6 gig hard driveI bought it for $400I use it nearly full time when I am working at home (not out in the field) I don't have any problems with speed or storage. I have some very large 3-d files that I occasionally render with shading and the speed is fine for that too.I would recommend going with R14 also. LT98 will seem fine for awhile, but as soon as one of these people uses R14 they will not want to go back. LT is in some ways their "experiment" they try new features there first before putting them in the full version. As a result, there are a few neat things that LT can do that AutoCAD can't.At my last job we bought 19 licenses total, about 6 were AotuCAD, the rest were R14. We paid $1200 each for the six seats of R14.If these terminals are strictly for CAD then yyou can buy interlaced monitors. They are cheaper and work fine for CAD, as CAD is mainly vectors. Non-Interlaced monitors work better for pixel based displays with rapid changes like 3-D games, video and that junk.Tell your son if he would like to E-mail me I'll be glad to help.-Rob
*Joe,
Joseph FuscoView Image"The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato
*I use AutoCad every day. I started in 1982 with ver 1.1. My office just upgraded from LT98 to both LT2000 (10 desks) and one desk with R2000 with ADT. Though I've only poked around with it, I'd recommend the LT2000 - somewhere in the low $500's per desk. They might want to later add one or more R2000 if the get into 3D.Hardware: go with Gateway or Dell. I think the cost of the hottest processor is worth it for what it adds at the end of the computers life - a few hundred more for a few months more. I like my 19" Sony Trinitron - and I like the desks I have worked at with dual or tripple 19's better than a single 21". (Cool to see the mouse cursor move from screen to screen and clip details from a drawing on one and paste on another.)For three or actually 10 or under desks, I'd consider using Win98 pere-to-peer networking. Avoid the hassels of NT. Just add network adapters, buy a hub, plug it all together. Buy an extra PC with backup and UPS and use as file server.Start with a HP5000 (11X17) laser printer and use an outside service for plots - email and return plots in a few hours. Then see if the costs and hassel of owning a plotter make it worth it.Good luck!(PS - LT98 has many features that R14 does not - including Intellimouse support and layer manager. Don't undersetimate value of xrefs - they are fantastic!
*Operating system...Bill's right that NT has more hassels than Win 95 or 98, but it can be more secure, and stable, and gives more control over access to files and directories but it is less friendly to peripherals.. no USB. If you do decide on NT check to see if the hardware is on Microsoft's HCL (Hardware Compatability List). There is NT workstation and NT Server. NT workstation allows some of the file and user management that NT Server does. PC...Both Dell and Gateway have "corporate" systems, typically they use more tested/stable hardware, not the latest and greatest. Consider 7500 rpm drives. Have lots of ram. Dell has multiprocessor workstations, have'nt used one thought. If you do decide on a multiprocessor pc make shure that the operating system and application take advantage of both processors Networking... If your going to use one pc as a file server to share files, I highly recommend using a dedicated system for the server (no users). I've had more stability problems with peer-to_ peer configurations than I care to remember. Network Cards - buy brand name like 3Com or Intel. consider getting 100 mb vs 10 mb cards and hub. In reality thoughthe files will probably only move twice as fast. Our 40 mb file transfers take .7 min with the 10 mb card and .3 min with the 100 mb card and hub. Storage media options.. If your going to take your file to someone else for printing find out what media they use. Zip drives or R/W cd roms are options, they also come inhandy if the network goes down.. For local storage consider an optical drive. We use a Sony 5.2 GB drive for storing 40 mb files (not CAD) Drive $1,700 media ~ $100.00. Also consider buying 2 of whichever storage device you select, for 2 reasons. 1)one for backup, if one fails your not dead in the water while the other is being repaired. and 2)Because technology changes so fast some companies won't repair that failed unit, that 2nd device allows you time to select a new media and get your old files moved over to it. Keep a backup copy of your files off-site to CYA in the event of fire , flood or theft etc..Redundancy.. NT Server allows mirroring of drives. One drive is a copy of the other, if the first drive failes the second can be used to replace it, the operating system, programs, program settings and data files are all there. Stability... The Pc's are a business tool not an entertainment system. Keep the games off. The fewer programs you have the fewer problems you'll have. Try out new programs on one pc before you add it to the others. Best of luckMike
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This just isn't my experience. I know of no one moving away from Autocad. Maybe it's happening in your market due to some other factors (i.e.: marketing)
I think it is widest used and most capable.
It is expensive.
It is for those who are into production work. There is no limit to it really, 3D or otherwise. You can do 3D within it and if you are in such an operation that you need the finest top of the line rendering you can import it into the best top of the line 3D rendering program -- 3D Studio Max. It is my understanding that 3D S. Max is the program that they used to render the popular movie "Toy Story." That program was written by the folks that wrote Autocad, it is fully integral.
I also think that those versions of Autocad that you've mentioned are compatible. We haven't had problems with Release 11, R12, or R13 getting placed into R14.
I don't know all that much about Acad 2000.
Sorry to be a promoter of this stuff but I just see the trend going the opposite way. Like I inferred at the begin'g, maybe you get 'round more than me.
Phil
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I'm certainly no expert, but I am aware of more people trying to move away from it. The cutting edge architect here, who is doing presentations I've heard described as 'virtual virtual reality', is using Archicad. The "Architectural Cadd Shootout" (head to head competition last year (?)between the major packages, where AC scored dead last) showed there are alternatives. The problem is trying to resist the market penetration of AC. My skills and requirements are still pretty elementary; I have R14 and another general CAD program, which I use more as it is more intuitive. I also question why an interior design firm is looking at AC, rather than something more geared to fast presentations that is compatible with AC. My persoanl Cad guru described AC as 'the best tool for drawing lines around', but they don't make it easy to draw those lines.
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I'm not going to argue w/ you Adrian. I know firsthand how frustrating Autocad can be. Regarding competitions and renderings, I would just think that it all pivots on "how much" you invest in the production work.
You are so right about 'penetrating marketshare.'
The reason why an interiors firm might be interested in Autocad is likely to have a lot to do w/ what the people who design the building (archs and eng's) hand them so that they, the interiors people, can get to work.
Phil
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Hi Joe,
I'm a mechanical engineer and I work with ACAD R14 and 2000.
At the office we use Dell Dimension v400 with 128 meg ram.The systems works fine.We mainly do 2d but we also use Mechanical Desktop 3D.When I work from home I use Mech.Desktop and ACAD 2000 on a Dell Optiplex Pentium 2, 350 mhz, 128 meg Ram and 21" Mag Monitor.Picked it up used for $750.00 Can.(Monitor not included).My point is, ask yourself what you will use it for.For heavy 3D get more ram
and good graphics card but you don't need top of the line processing power(Unlike CATIA or PRO E, it doesn't require it).I have to agree with others on your choice of CAD program.For mechanical design,ACAD is great, but for architecture or interior design?I think there are better and more user friendly programs better suited to what you're doing.ACAD has to be customized to much to be efficient for your type of work(not to mention cost).But then again I'm not an architect or interior designer.
Hope I've help somewhat.
Gaby
*I'd echo yours and Joe Fusco's comments ..... AutoCAD 2000 is a powerful tool. A lot to learn, yes , but it's capabilties are almost unlimited. Most limitations are that of the user. I think Windows NT is the better choice for the operating system ....it seems to be far more stable than Windows 95 - in the 'puter labs here at school at least. A decent monitor is essential, especially if you are doing 3D ...... 3 or 4 viewports take up a lot of real estate. I'd consider a 17" monitor the bare minimum ..... a 19" or 21" would be much better. A decent video card comes into play here, too. 128 megs of ram would help, too. A subscription to Cadence and/or Cadylyst magazines will help you keep up with AutoCAD with their tests and reviews and helpful hints.
*I have a genuine question about these other high-end systems. Are manufacturers giving you free drawings in their format? Will they open AutoCAD drawings? Getting my details drawn for free has been very handy. I get CD's in the mail with pre-drawn details for free. I realize this is a marketing gimmick, but many things are standard sizes regardless of who makes 'em.-Rob
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My son is in the market for 3 complete systems for use with Autocad 2000. They will be used for interior design department. What does he need to have, what would be nice to have? Also helpful would be a guesstimate as to cost of the system you would recommend.
Users will be current design staff, who have been using real paper & pencils.
Son is a PC proficient, with some self taught cad experience.
Thanks for your assistance, Joe H
*I gather, but am not sure, that you refer to the hardware. I would buy just off the mainstream PC performance crest, and get a snootful of RAM. Today that might mean a 550 Hz Pentium III processor and 256 megs of RAM. Get at least a 19" screen with .26 dp or better. Make sure the system has an Intellimouse, or other 3 button/wheel device - 2000 uses the wheel. Get a huge drive too, maybe 10 gigs. As for price, visit Dell's website to "build" your own.They're working together, so the most important thing is to set up a good server to hold all the files and ensure solid backup performance. Novell is good server software. You should get a good consultant to help set up the server. Good luck to your son, and I hope this is what you were asking.
*Dave--- The AutoCAD LT98 program is a real bargain at 400 bucks (CompUSA). I can't imagine needing more for design work. I use it for building design . R14 seems overkill, yet to try 2000, but if they price it like R14, I'd try the LT98. The hardware described above sounds like the ticket...JRNicholson
*JR,You make a good point. I didn't mention that since Joe didn't seem to be asking about the software. What's LT98 - $500 or so? I think 2000 is more than $2K. It would be worth a close look at the features of both packages.2000 seems designed for multi-user environments, with features like reference files, multiple paperspace layouts in single drawings, the ability to modify the references without opening them, multiple drawings open in a single session, and a their "design center" data sharing tool. They'll need 2000 if they plan to do 3D work. There are new interface options, like the heads up display concept. Are some of these functions part of LT98? I haven't checked the specs lately.On the LT98 side, though, I've heard that it's a much more friendly way to learn AutoCAD. A good option might be to start with LT98 and upgrade later. CAD use can pay back the increased initial cost of more powerful software, but only if you use it a lot.Regards,Dave
*My thoughts on software and hardware is simimlar but I want to point out a few shortcomings. We use both R14 and LT and while the LT is maybe better for learning (and the initial post said these are folks that have little experience), there are some features missing from LT that really bother me -- like No "layer manager." Atleast, I haven't been able to find it. The Layer Manager is essential if you have complex drawings because it helps you navigate through the layers w/ just a click of the mouse. For that reason alone I'd go w/ R14. You may be able to get R14 way cheaper now than before, and I'll tell you one more thing; If there are as many "bugs" in the initial release of 2000 as there were in the early versions of R14 then it would pay to buy the solid R14 and upgrade to 2000 in a couple of years. As far as the hardware is concerned we've had a little bit of a problem around here recently and we've traced to our Gateway2000 computers. It seems that the Video Card that is installed in their standard packaged computer is called a Voodoo Card. This type of card is used by other manufacturers, or should I say 'assemblers' of computers, Dell might be another one that uses it. I'd steer clear of that Card. It seems that it is made for 3d video games more than the quick display of 'panning' around in drawings. Cadence magazine did a recent review of video cards in a relatively recent issue. I'd go hunting for one of those. More RAM is what we've been adding to keep up w/ the pace of things.Good Luck, Phil