The main bathroom in my 1913 bungalow has some peculiarities. The room is approximately 6(W)x8(L) (I think). The toilet is closest to the door on the west wall, and the sink is on the same wall about 2 feet away to the north. There is one window on the north wall. The tub is on the east wall, and about 1/4 of the window framing goes into the tub area. The tub is butted up agains the north wall, and is designed to go into a corner that way – in other words, it is free on two sides. It is an older steel tub in good condition. The plumbing is installed into this “tile shelf” that come up about a foot from the top edge of the tub and creats this ledge, which, of course, holds water. Anyway, with the window framing going into the tub, and this not-so-greatly designed ledge, the bathroom is kind of schlocky looking. What would you recommend short of gutting the whole room and starting over? This room was gutted by a PO/contractor who did this “quick rehab,” which explains the quality of the work. The tile floor is in good shape, but is not anywhere close to level.
Should I keep the tub? Or would a free standing tub with a shower attachment in the middle of the tub be better (because of the window)? One contractor has suggested making the window narrower so that it doesn’t go halfway into the tub. I hope you all can understand my description of the room and this puzzle.
Replies
Tenacious D, eh? Think you coulda stopped Fisher from getting that shot last night?
Anyway, I strongly suggest you get an architect to lay out the room. If you look around a little you can find someone who will spend an hour on a site visit and then a few more drawing up a couple of schemes, and bill you about $300. You don't need complete plans, just a few room layout options. Architects design stuff all day and it's worth the money to take advantage of their expertise.
Well, it IS FineHomebuilding ya know.$$
I'd move the tub to the North wall.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Thanks, Boris, that probably does make the most sense. Would I need to relocate another plumbing fixture to the east wall, i.e., sink?
I'll leave that up to you. What I like to do is get some quarter inch graph paper and draw up the room. Then on a separate sheet of paper draw up the fixtures etc. Cut them out with scissors and move them around the room. Once you get the tub set, there are only a few other combinations. Yes you would have rip up floors and move plumbing.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
10ACusD,
This is what I got from your word picture.
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Is it anywhere near correct?
SamT
Yes, that is the exact layout! Except the room is longer and narrower - there is 3 feet between the end of the tub and the door, and a 2 foot radiator (pipe to pipe) against the wall. The tub is 5 feet long and 30" wide.
Edited 5/14/2004 6:02 pm ET by Tenacious D
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Better?
Perfect! Do you agree with Boris that I should uproot the room, rearrange and install tub on north/window wall?
Definitely move the sink south close to the toilet, and stick the tub up along that north wall. This is a classic layout. Puts all your plumbing in one wall and leaves you room to stand and dry yourself off. With that .75:1 ratio room, that's the best layout you're going to find. You might consider a pedestal sink to save a bit of space, too....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
What's your budget?
<=$1000$1000-$50005-1010-20$50,000?
Each range has different possibilities.
SamT
I would say my budget should not really exceed $5000 not including fixtures. I already had a new pedestal sink installed (thanks, Dinosaur!). Do I need a new 6' tub? My tub is 5 feet and has - how do I describe this - 5 sides. In other words, on the south end of the tub there is another angle, because of the way it sits in the room in the corner. Do you think a professional could do the following for $5000 (or less?): (1) tear out; (2) level floor; (3) new tile floor (question: does the tile go all the way under the tub?); (4) tile walls with subway tile; (5) move plumbing around; (6) electrical. I would buy lighting, cabinet fixtures and tub separately. Am I missing anything?
$5000 barely covers 60-70 hours of labor.
Leveling the floor requires a full tearout and replacement of everything in the room, or maybe 100 hours labor. No materials yet.
$5000 is a very minimal amopunt for a bath remodel, so I will look at the minimum I think you can do and stay somewaht in the style of the house.
Remove the radiator from the SE corner of the room, cap the pipes, or join them if in series feed.
Frame the plumbing ledge to the ceiling.
Move the window to the center of the wall space between the new plumbing chase and the west wall. Keep the original window.
put an electric baseboard heater centered under the window.
Put a ponywall at the south end of the tub and install a floor to ceiling linen cabinet behind the open door.
install a tub and shower surround with sliding doors.
To save a few hundred bucks, you can remove the ledge framing and the drywall from the north wall by yourself.
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SamT
Agreed that $5K won't cover this. I priced out a similar project for someone recently at about twice that, and it didn't involve rearranging all the plumbing, which would add another $1500.
Sam, what's your drawing program?
David & Sam T -
A few more questions:
(1) Would you move bathtub to window wall if it were your project?
(2) Is 10k on a bathroom remodel an average cost? 12k including fixtures (without new bath)?
(3) What is the hourly labor charge you are going by?
(4) What is the estimated project time - 2 weeks? one month or more?
(1) Would you move bathtub to window wall if it were your project?
Based on the layout Sam drew, I would. It seems like it's in the way if it's adjacent to the door. It's better at the end of the room. I might also move the door to one side or the other, but I would really need a scale drawing to figure that out.
(2) Is 10k on a bathroom remodel an average cost? 12k including fixtures (without new bath)?
No such thing as average. The one I recently looked at was mostly cosmetic--remove and replace sheetrock because it had wallpaper and tacky mirror tile glued to it, replace all fixtures in their existing locations with some mods to the plumbing to acccommodate a different tub, replace flooring, a few other things. No tile work, etc. You can easily spend $50K or more on a medium sized bathroom if you go all tile including the shower, new windows, fancy trim, etc. I did one not long ago that was $75K.
(3) What is the hourly labor charge you are going by?
Figure $35 on the low end for a laborer/apprentice, $55 or more for a journeyman (who will do most of the work on a bathroom). Subs and materials + 25%, and of course a cover-your-#### cushion if I'm giving a fixed price.
(4) What is the estimated project time - 2 weeks? one month or more?
Maybe 4-6 weeks depending on the availability of subs in tight sequence. It's more scheduling than the actual number of hours of work required. A small job may be idle a few days at a time waiting for the next guy to free up.
(1) Would you move bathtub to window wall if it were your project?
Not for a $5000 budget. $10,000, maybe. I think the best layout in that small space would be; west wall, toilet and reverse the swing of the door; north wall, tub; and east wall, vanity or pedestal. The plumbing would take the largest portion of even the $10,000.
(2) Is 10k on a bathroom remodel an average cost?
That's about what you should have in hand before you start thinking about remodeling, as opposed to redecorating, which is basically what I outlined above. A heavy redecoration, or a very slight remodel.
4) What is the estimated project time - 2 weeks?
I even broke out my 400x telescope, but the curvature of the earth got in the way, so, I really can't say.
If there are no surprises, and all you do is move the window, demo the north DW yourself beforehand, the exterior siding is a piece of cake, a stock linen cabinet fits the available space (if you use one,) don't touch the floor, it could concievably be done in 2 weeks. For the sketchs above.
SamT
I have a follow-up for you: Last night, instead of heading straight to bed, I got a flashlight and a ruler out to see what I could see under the 1/2 inch gap between the tub and the floor (remember, I said the floor was not level? it "swoops down" a 1/2 inch in the middle). WELL, I could see that: (1) the tile did not go all the way under the tub; (2) the original white hex tile was under the new tile along with (3) tons of debris! broken plaster, chipped tile, and of course, dust, dirt, etc. I was able to pull this s*&t out with the ruler.
Question: is it "normal" for a "rehabber" to just plop the tub down precariously over an 1/8th to 1/4" of ragged tile and not even tile over the entire floor? And to plop the tub down over whatever debris happens to be on the floor at the time?
Here is what I have decided to do:
Leave the original layout (see Sam T drawing). Take up the tub and floor, remove and LEVEL the floor, lay new hex tile (assuming old tile is cracked and ruined by having tile installed over it.) As for that annoying shower shelf, take it all the way up to the ceiling, make the window narrower (new window) so it doesn't go into the tub/shower, and tile the walls - 3/4 up with subway tile, except for in the shower where it will be higher. My tub is really nice with art-deco type ridges around the perimeter, so I think this is the best solution.
At least I think I have decided on this . . .
10D
It's normal to not tile under a built-in tub, but any competent installer should get the area under the tub at least "broom clean" before installing the tub, if only to avoid having crap on the floor interfere with the installation.
Tiling over existing tile is sometimes a good idea and sometimes not.
I think moving the tub to the north wall makes the most sense, to the degree that it might be worth putting off the work 'til you can afford it. Levelling the floor, putting down nice tile...the layout will still be awkward and when you finally do give in, you'll have to rip up that nice new floor! I'd think you could get a good, quality job for 12K and expect it to take about 3 weeks what with subs and all...
Thank you for keeping us up to date.
We do get attached sometimes to some of the problems we help with. It's nice to know how everything turns out.
Samt
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=43263.1
PaintShop Pro v3.
SamT
Wow... I have Paint Shop Pro v.6 and I never thought of trying to draw with it. I assumed you were using a basic CAD program with ready-made shapes for the fixtures etc.
I am finishing up on my own master bath remodel. I spent just over $3000 for materials. I reused the toilet, vanity base and medicine cabinet. Installing a old clawfoot tub that I sandblasted and repainted. I have been working on the demo and remodel just over 2 months now, but I have been doing this only on nights and weekends, mostly weekends though. I am not paying any labor cost since I am doing it myself. I am sure labor cost would have ran close to $10,000 or so had I paid someone to do it.
"Life is what happens when you are making other plans." - John Lennon
Edited 5/16/2004 7:42 am ET by dan_lott
This has all been extremely helpful. I guess I thought that because I had my entire basement finished into 4 rooms for under $11,000, including installation of a new bathroom with a shower stall, and that took 2 1/2 months, that just remodeling one bathroom "should" be about half that. I realize now that I got a really good price and understand why everyone who comes by says they would have charged $25,000. Thank you to everyone for your input suggestions! Now I have to do some work on my budget!
T.D.
In many cases doing it from scratch may be cheaper than remodeling. Especially if the rough-in plumbing is already in place.
Nope, those are just quick sketches.
Click a tool, make a rectangle, oh, 'bout that big. click another, make an oval, oh 'bout that size, add a couple straight lines, freehand a couple more.
The three sketches I made to show my idea of plans took less than 15 minutes.
To keep file size small, create a new drawing with a 640x480 canvas, 2 color 1 bit, then copy and paste as new image, just the sketch. Save as a GIF file.
SamT
Well, one simple thing would be to change the ledge to a 45-degree slope.