We had our roof done in April. About 2000sqft architecturals. The roofer did a bad job by any measure. He did the fields fine. But the sidewall/frontwall flashing is leaking on to the garage – he basically caulked some trim coil to the shingles and didn’t reflash or add flashing. He didn’t mention there was a problem even. It leaks. He caulked the counterflashing of the chimney to the shingles and the brick so any water that gets behind there will get into the house. He also did 2 of the 3 waste vent boots poorly – you can see the nails. That will leak someday. All that can be fixed, I suppose. But he didn’t use starter strips on the rakes (there is drip edge there though) and didn’t overhang the shingles on the rakes or eaves by the 1/2 or 1/4 inch over the drip edge. That stuff can’t be fixed without a tearoff. Also its a board roof (1x6s) and some of the nails are just through the felt – not into wood – not many but more than I’m happy with. This is just the stuff we know about.
I’m upset he did such a bad job but even moreso that we can’t do the hot roof I’d wanted (we didn’t put in a ridge vent in anticipation of spray foam). So in a way he’s taken part of what I want our house to be from us (absent another reroof). Not sure about what to do for the hot roof, but watertite seems more important right now.
The BI said I should get him to fix it because its done wrong but the roofer barely responded to my calls. When he did show up and I mentioned the BI he said he didn’t want to hear from me again and stormed off my front lawn. Fine, he doesn’t know what he’s doing anyway. Lot of good a waranty does.
Other roofers have come to estimate and more than one has said I should sue this guy as he gives them all a bad name. I can’t really see doing that since we are out all day and I wouldn’t put it past him to retaliate – he seemed a bit unstable in our last encounter. All the roofers knew him and were suprised he did this kind of a job. The BI too.
BTW, I checked his references and he got nothing but glowing reviews.
Wow, that was a lot. So two questions if you’ve read this far:
1. Is there any recourse I have besides suing? I just kind of want to get this behind us and not piss off some nut with a truck of power tools but I’m feeling these might be expensive repairs that we can’t totally handle.
2. How bad are the unfixable mistakes from a watertite roof point of view? Are the overhangs and lack or rake starter courses severe problems? What future problems and symptoms should I look for. Should I expect nail pops through a 30yr architectural?
Thanks for any help.
Replies
without pictures, it is hard to comment on a lot of this or to understand the flashing problems.
Suing him - you have to document a lot to show the judge so you might as well show us. you will also need to get another roofer to fix it all, in order to establish a price for the claim in court - unless you want to tyry going after himn for the whole thing.
Not sure what you mean about how he has ruined any plans for a hot roof...
but there are several of the items you mentioned that are not necessarily wrong. There are differing regional practices, and some individual variances that are not right or wrong, just different. The rakes is one example there. In twenty years I have never run starter shingles up a rake, but I do use good eave edging. The tear-offs I have done that had rake starters had no metal eave edge. I conclude that for the purpose they serve, it is a choice of one or the other. Both are not needed. The extra 1/4" overhang I would see as sloppy cutting work. My edges are trimmed exactly to the metal, look neat, and don't leak.
I'm not sure what a frontwall flashing is. Headwall maybe? This is the first time I've heard the term.
A lot of us have gone to re-sheathing the whole roof when doing a tear-off on boarding boards sheathing. An overlay of 3/8" plywood gives a much better solid surfacce for the shingles. Did he mention that option and offer to do it at a higher price?
Was he the lowest bidder? - just curious?
The flashing probably has to be re-done with new shingles in those areas, but hard to be specific without photos.
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Piffin thanks for replying - I appreciate your opinion.
I'm not looking to sue him. I'm not really sure what to do -mostly I'd just like it to be over and not have a roof leak. It was just what many of the other roofers had said to do, and maybe they are right. I don't want to go down that road unless these repairs get really expensive.
To the hot roof - depending on how a hot (unvented) roof is done you generally have less visibility as to leaks. Flashing has to be exemplary. This is clearly not the case here so the hot roof is out. I can't spray foam with a high probablility of leaks - it would be inviting disaster down the road.
I didn't know these were regional differences and I am very happy to hear so. Maybe I wasn't clear but there is NO overhang of the shingles over the drip edge, but the shingle directions indicate there should be. Sounds like you don't use an overhang either - correct? Maybe I'm off the hook there.
Frontwall is maybe not the right term - I thought I'd seen that in the JLC field guide. I mean the 1st story roof intersection with the 2 story house where you'd use some pan flashing as opposed to step flashing. THat is the long side of a shingle touches the wall, not the short side. Maybe shedroof? Basically the garage wraps around the corner of the house so there is a sidewall and a whatever-wall. It leaks at the junction. Kind of like the corner of a dormer. We are talking 3 feet of sidewall and 2 feet of frontwall - not a lot.
He mentioned plywood as a last resort. Metal was to be used to cover small gaps between boards. Neither was used. He said each shingle is nailed in two rows so it won't fly away and I shouldn't worry about the nails that missed.
Yes, he was the lowest bidder but I figured his glowing references were adequate. Live and learn.
I'd love to give pics but DW has not allowed me on the roof (I'd be pretty terrified anyway). Of course if I could get on the roof I'd just try and fix it myself -I'm wary of hiring anyone else after the 1st experience.
So basically, it sounds like the non-fixable stuff (drip edge overhang, rake starters) are a matter of opinion/regional - correct? What about the nail pops with an architectural?
Does redoing a couple of boots and 5-6 feet of flashing sound like an expensive job? I'm not overwhelmed with contractors willing to do this. Fixing the flashing sounds like it might be a pain with a layer of vinyl and a layer of wood claps underneath.
Sounds like you got screwed man.
I believe i talked to you about this before your "roofer" started.
Find a good company to give you an estimate on a repair.
Ask them if a layover would be cheaper than a repair job. Might be an option. If they take care of the details.
Good luck
What the problem is?
Yes you did, Stilletto, and I appreciated everything you had to say. Wish there were roofers like you here.
Man, did I ever get screwed.
I wasn't actually looking for advice as to whether or not to sue - just venting to those who know better. I was more interested in the things that can't be fixed and how bad they are.
I'll ask about an overlay, but I don't have another $6k to shell out for another roof.
You have every right to vent. You checked this guys references, and they checked out.
Did you go look at the references roofs yet? Might be something to check out and see if this how he does stuff.
I hope you get this figured out.
What the problem is?
"Ask them if a layover would be cheaper than a repair job."Can't layover archies and have anything worth while, and it sounds to me like the poor flashing ( the main problem) is already some sort of flash-over or caulk instead. He neeeds to get down under to be able to have a flashing
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I didn't know that you couldn't layover archies.
Good info to know.
I was thinkin that the whole thing could be redone and reflashed over the old. Wishful thinking I guess.
Need some pictures.
What the problem is?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Can't layover archies and have anything worth whileThis is like argueing with someone who says you're not an ahole. I've been involved in 5 layover jobs ever, and the last two were archies over archies. They were both hip roofs and they are both as pretty as they get (you can't tell they're layovers without getting on the roof), but I've had a flashing callback on one of them. Rusty terne behind masonite siding. I hate layovers.
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I won't argue how they look, and I'm usuially one who argues that layovers CAN be done in the right circumstances...But it is true that the manufacturers will deny warrantees for the most poart on layovers.the main reason behind my point is that the thicker archies will create more voids between them and the new layer, which in time will offer great opportunity to break down with foot traffic or hail.
Since the warrantees and instructions all call for a smooth solid substrate to support the product, I don't see archies qualifying.BTW, you're not an Awhole
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Yes I am.
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
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Whose wife told you so?
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Mine
"Let's go to Memphis in the meantime, baby" - John Hiatt.
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And as far as your options with this guy, report him to the Better Business Bureau, if you have one in your area. Call your state licensing board and file a complaint, if he is licensed he will be brought up for review. If not he probably won't ever be able to get one.
What the problem is?
Does your camera have a zoom? Or can you shoot a high def photo from the ground and edit enlarge to select close up of the problems? headwall flashing is what I call that where a shed roof top intersects a wall. Some catalouges from meetal roofing/building manufacturers list it as that too, so I guess I'm not alone.Some of that is matter of opinion, But the flashing is a lousy job not matter how it looks if it leaks. This really doesn't sound like it should cost more than $5-8 hundred but I'm shooting in the dark without seeing it.Speaking of shooting in the dark, assasination fees are an extra.
Sorry, just kidding. I don't do that kind of work.wish I could help more than just with advise. Hire another roofer to redo the flashing area and the shingles that are involved there, and your worries should disappear. But check out the new guy and look at some of his work too.
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Thanks Piffin. I'll try and get a photo from the ground. Empirically it is a bad flashing job. Thanks everyone for the opinions and letting me vent a bit. Every now and then I need a reality check that there are good contractors out there.
I took some pictures with the zoom but, honestly, I can't get close enough to see any thing in the photos. The zoom isn't that great.I made a connection in my head that should have happened a few months ago. This summer, in thunderstorms, we've had rain get behind the gutters more often than in the past. I realize now that's probably because the shingles don't overhang the edge at all where as they used to hang way over (there used to be a cedar starter strip instead of a drip edge). Since we can't rip the roof off an start over I'd like to put in gutter flashing ( correct term?) behind the drip edge and into the gutter. How is this best done? Do I have to notch trim coil around all the gutter hangers or is there some premade product for this? How do I attach it in a waterproof way? I imagine regular screws thru the flashing would allow the water to get into/behind the fascia which wouldn't be good. Any ideas?
My method of gutter flashing:
Measure and bend up the stock to the smallest dimension from bottom of gutter up in the drip edge.
Pull only the amount of screws you need to get one piece in. After the piece is installed run the screws back in. Then pull the next section of screws and repeat until you are done. The gutter screws hold your flashing in place.
What the problem is?
My gutters are hung with nails I believe. Big ones. Is it reasonable to replace them with screws? I'm thinking the nail has already made too big a hole in the rafter tail to put a screw in. Actually, I've found pulling nails out of a gutter hanger is not the easiest thing. I was thinking of using sheetmetal screws with neoprene washers to attach the gutter flashing, but it sounds like that's not the prefered way.
I wouldn't replace them with screws. Just move the nail so it hits a different point on the fascia. Use the same entry wound just different exit wound.
Use a flat bar and hammer to remove the nails. Slide the small bent leg behind the head of the nail and hit the bar with your hammer till the nails pop loose.
What the problem is?
if we have water running behind the gutter, the first thing we do is bend the drip edge out to make sure it isn't touching the fascia
if that doesn't do it, we make up two inch strips of aluminum , that slips under the drip and over the lip of the gutter.. it usually rests on the brackets
a friend went to HD and bought vinyl baseboad.. trimmed it, and used it like we use our aluminum stripsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"My gutters are hung with nails I believe. Big ones. Is it reasonable to replace them with screws?"These maybe?http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=40974&cat=3,41306,41315
What Piffin said.
I think he covered it.
:)
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Did you look at the job before you paid? Did you already pay?
Mike
On top of what Piffin says I'm wondering about your not wanting to sue the guy becuase he seams unstable!
If your afraid to sue the guy and you really do have a legit reason to do so what are you hopeing for then? Do you think out of the goodness of his heart he's just going to come back fix it all?
If your going to sue the guy and if you really do have a legit reason you better get over the concerns you have for him comming back and retaliating, if not then be prepared to fix it on your dime.
Doug
I feel for you and your situation, I see a lot of roofs like that in Connecticut.
I know the first day you see your attorney and present your case, you will be relieved.You will leave your retainer, but six months down the road, you'll be in the same position, with nothing to show.I think the only one who makes out here, are the attorneys involved.
Here in Connecticut, most roofers are licensed by the state. There is a guaranty fund for just such cases. Maybe your state has a similiar setup?
Don't let the roof problem fster too long, winters around the corner.
Greg in Connecticut
No need for atty. this is small claims court
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What Piffin said.