bad tile prep, how long will floor last?
My neighbor is having porclain tile installed (16″x16″) onto a floor that was originally linoleum over 1/4″ luaun. The installer said that the floor felt solid, I feel some bounce. He never determined the thickness of the subfloor/underlayment.
He removed the majority of the lino, leaving some clean luaun, some exposed glue, and some paper backing. He has installed 1/4″ hardibacker, without thinsetting it into place, and is screwing 6″ O.C.
I went by to see the tile installation in progress, he is not taping the seams, he is not washing the dust off the hardibacker to assist in bonding.
I mentioned to my neighbor to refer to the manufacturers website and directions before he allowed the installation to proceed. But the installer insists that he’s been doing this for 20 years and stands behind his work.
What happens? Is the floor doomed, or are the extra steps just added insurance against failure.
Replies
It would be helpful to know the joist situ8ation. If they are correct, the stuff he is doing is probably not critical. It would have been easy enough to thinset the hardie in place ... hope it isn't spanning a gap that will fail later.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
2"x10" installed 16" OC.
I agree I would not have done it that way either.
what are those 2 x 10's spanning?
The joists are spanning around 13'
2x10 @ 16" spanning 13' gives L/460 which is more than enough for porcelain tile (but not good enough for stone). Still, it would have been nice to have thinset under the hardieboard.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That floor ain't got much of a chance. Installing over 1/4 luan is not approved, and not using thinset underneath to fill the voids is just plain wrong and lazy to boot.
Not "one" CBU mfg. will warrant this type of installation.
I agree! Just cause you can get away with something doesn't mean you should. If the installer is self taught ( and I am sure he is because of the errors made here) he is going to have a hard time getting a manf to stand behind him. I've had the James Hardi rep in my classroom many times and he said the only things you can't do to Hardibacker is put it outside or put it down without mortar. The number of people who don't mortar is huge. But is it because they are naive? Why skip this step and risk voiding the warranty? Over compensating with screws every 6" also is a problem. That's why they preprint the fastener pattern on it.
The not using tape is common as well. When using it for floors other than tile, you don't need to tape. It's a different set of instructions and I wonder if people read the wrong one!
I wonder if people read the wrong one!
Because most of the hardie is sold through big box stores, and the customer gets the "instructions" from the sales help. Most of thetime the brochure from Hardie is out of stock (or still in the desk drawer), and the little label on the back of the board is not a lot of help.
Why do you say that screwing at 6" spacing is a problem?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
CBU's can be cut by scoring and snapping, and I've found (the hard way) that too many fasteners along a line can in effect cause the same as snapping. I've had boards crack from this.
You also have a better chance of nailing into a floor joist. This also should be avoided. Sheets should be positioned so that they do not have a seam over an existing plywood seam. They also should be run perpendicular to the ply. I also sponge them down prior to setting as they are very dry and will wick the moisture out of mortar too soon.
As for the brochures, GUILTY! No excuse. Our top execs made a decision to have service groups rather than vendor reps do our aisle service. Their rationale is that "the consumer has changed and the web is the reason. They can get all the information they need thru a computer, so why have a vendor. Also, why have to pay for knowledgable associates when all I need are partimers who can work the weird shifts we require." Ask any associate on the floor their experience level and how long they've been there and you will unfortunately find this to be true. Our CEO's 5 year contract is up in Feb, let's hope he hears your voices or departs.
Good point on creating a fault line. Had not thought about that.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Just remember that cement board does not add stregth to the structure. It is an underlayment. If you dont believe me, place a saw horse 16" on center and place a sheet of cement board ontop. Step aboard and hang on for the ride down! Its one of the first things you learn as an apprentice tilesetter. Do the same with a sheet of plywood.
I personally would not do it as described.
BUT, if I were your nieghbor, I would try to find out just how long the installer will stand behind his work. If the installer is providing say a 5 year warranty that's probably OK. If he is only providing a 6 month or year - I'd be leery.
Just because you have been doing something for 20 years doesn't mean you have ever done it well. I know for sure that a tile floor done right (following the manufacturer's directions) will last 12 years and look perfect - all I have to do to re-inspect that job is enter my 1st floor powder room!
Many of my remodels include tile walls or floors - I follow the directions religiously and have never had a call back due to tile failure.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
It's all about the bounce.
I am a firm believer that hardibacker CAN be screwed down if good quality screws are used. Six inches on center is good. Whether the tile will last and not crack is a function of the stiffness of the floor and basically nothing else.
If you can stand on your toes. drop hard onto you heels and hear anything rattle, it is NOT good. Time will tell.
Chris