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Ive allways been told that the old timers built their walls in the air, not like we frame them now. I also remember reading somewhere that the crews were a lot bigger, 10-15 men, with plenty of apprentices to do the grunt work
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"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
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Pete,
In my tool chest, along with a bit brace that was dad's, several beading and routing planes, and numerous handsaws is an old chalk line setup like you describe. I have no idea whereit came from, but I did try it once, the reel type is much better. I recently saw half spheres of chalk for sale a my local yard, does this mean that someone still chalks lines this way?
*Peter Draganic, you quit pestering your elders! Not yet thirty, my my. Three kids (that we know about) and time to hassle us too. Ah the follies of youth...;-)
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Ted Cavanaugh, an architect and professor at Dalhousie University in Halifax published a paper about 2 years ago in the Journal of Architectural Education in which he debunks the myth of the so-called balloon frame being invented in Chicago in the 1830's. One of his theories is that the idea developed gradually over time and probably has its roots in the French settlements along the Mississippi in the 18th C. It's an interesting read for those so inclined. This makes Rich's reference to "Missouri stick" very interesting indeed.
*I remember seeing a building go up in the 60's that was sheathed with 1x12's running diagonally.
*You just said a mouthfull...
*Weren't we talking about this amonth or so ago and Gene L. thought it was developed in the deep south?Maybe it wasn't Gene. It seems to me though that someone brought it up. Was it you Gerry?Dan
*originally I bet balloon framing was something the British taught the Canadians as a practical joke and they took it seriously.
*Bill, it's time to throw down that old folding rule and get into the 21st century! I apprenticed using one, and still can't figure out why anyone would choose one over a 30' stanley.How many times do you have to walk back and forth to measure a 16-9 1/4 microlam beam over a garage opening?I've got a brand new one, that is also 20 years old. I dont think I ever used it on the jpb once!Blue
*I've seen a bit of that here too on jobs i had to tear into.Pete
*...see it alll the time on remodels out here in THE GREAT NORTHWEST. Usually it's 1x6 or 8 shiplap though. Often times it's applied horizontally too. - jb
*Dan,No it weren't me who posted that info previously. Looking back I think the article mentioned by Rob in "American Heritage of Invention and Technology" probably jives with Cavanaugh's hypothesis that the balloon frame was a French thing and can't really be atributed to either Taylor or Snow in Chicago. Is this getting a little too esoteric, even for Breaktime?
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This Damn Old House, about 100yrs old:
The wall studs sit on top of the flooring along the walls that are perpendicular to the floor joists, but the wall studs on the gable ends of the house drop down to the foundation, sitting directly on the sill plate. You would think that they would've nailed the last floor joist into these studs. They didn't think of that. So the flooring "floats" the last 18"! There is no header along the floor joists, just the house sheathing.
My question, what kind of brewski's were these guys doing back then?
*RJT - you know, I'm not even sure why they ever thought baloon framing was better than platform in the first place. Maybe they reasoned that they got "direct" bearing on the sill or something. I know I looked into having a two story house moved a couple years ago and the mover said - "forget it, it's baloon framed for one thing" so it must be less stable. - yb
*My house is 82 yrs old, baloon framed and it ain't goin' nowhere. There was a great article on balloon and platform framing in either an old edition of FHB or TOH. It was really a great read. I think that balloon framing had much to do with the saving of materials and time in building new homes. Remember that they didn't have any powere tools on jobsites at the turn of the century.Pete Draganic
*Ummm guys,I think balloon framing was developed in the 1830's and platform framing was developed about 80 years later. Since a lot of old (balloon framed) houses have claps nailed directly to the studs, they're more unstable to move. Even the ones with 1x12s for sheathing, if not nailed diagonaly are a bit more unstable than 4x8 sheets of plywood.Provided the rookie nailing it off hits the studs that is...Dan
*and those 20' studs are "Special Order" now.BB
*I don't see how it was faster: if they laid out a wall on the ground they've got 20' long studs and for the second floor they have to notch every stud for the header, with what, a chisel? Then they push the wall up and tie it to the joists with the other wall on the other side swinging in the breeze? The early remodelers made some good time though, they cut into the wall to make an 8' wide opening and you could tell from the slump that they didn't put in any header, they just whacked off the studs. But what really was amazing when I took off the lath/plaster was to find there wasn't even a stud behind the trim! They just cut into the wall anywhere! They must've had other priorities.
*Ive allways been told that the old timers built their walls in the air, not like we frame them now. I also remember reading somewhere that the crews were a lot bigger, 10-15 men, with plenty of apprentices to do the grunt work
*Robert , that was my understanding to .I was also told that carpenters in the 1800's used to wear white shirts and tyes to work and were highly respected as professionals , anyone know if thats true ? Chuck
*Balloon framing came along as a 'new concept' when timber framing was the norm. I understand that Timber Framers referred to it derisively asi balloon framing. When you consider the manpower, and effort needed to construct and then erect 'timber bents', you can see how baloon framing would be a 'modernization'. Less mterial & manpower. Platform framing was a further refinement. You have to look at these things in historical context. -pm
*RJT: House (c1909) I was going to buy some time ago had walls framed as you describe. Thing was, the house was three stories and the wall studs ran full height--one piece-- sill to top. Met a guy whose father helped frame the house, so he gave me some history of the house. This framing method was what he called "Missouri stick", or something like that.There wasn't any insulation in the walls--oh, I guess some might call the solid sheet of newspaper insulation--and the clap was nailed directly to the studs. Didn't buy the house because of the constanly flooded root cellar and too much to heat the house.
*Looking it over I realize they didn't frame a wall on the ground but did like mentioned above, held the studs while they put the thing together. I can tell they first laid the sill on the foundation rocks, then the joists and a plate and the eave side studs, then the gable end studs. They must've put in the horizontal piece into the notch for the second floor as the studs were standing? Next the sub-flooring went on, the sheathing, lath and plaster, interior trim and then the finish floor! (after the trim).
*A thought occured to me while reading through these new ones here. I mentioned before that they had no pwer tools during the baloon framing days and I just remembered that they didnt even have reel type chalk lines either. they had to take a piece of string and rub it against a hunk of chalk to strike a line! That must have sucked.Pete
*When I first started in about '69 or '70 we used to sheat the subfloor, go around and snap lines for walls, and nail the bottom plates down. Then we would layout walls and nail top plates to studs. Then we would stand the wall like that, toe nailing each stud to the bottom plate, working our way down the wall. I wouldn't be surprised if some folks still frame that way. We also used 6 foot folding rulers instead of tape measures. My first summer, I can remember seeing a plumber use a tape measure and asking my boss (surrogate father) why we didn't use tapes instead of those wooden rulers, he kind of grunted and said "...hmph, that's a plumbers tool." I know you probably think I'm telling another story, but this is the truth. It wasn't just that builder either. I was in a vocational program my last 2 years of high school, very well respected, and we learned the same techniques there. Times change. T-111 was kind of new then, and everyone scoffed at it, much like folks do today about vinal siding. Our profession is evolving, like everything else. - yb
*Hey Bob,Young Bob? HAH! You were framing in '69 and what was I doing way back then...hold on....lemme think....Oh yeah! I was being born! Will turn 30 this July and You just made me feel a whole lot better 'bout that now. Thanks Bob!Pete
*"Times change. T-111 was kind of new then, and everyone scoffed at it, much like folks do today about vinal siding."Judging from what I read at Breaktime, everyone still scoffs at T-111.Rich Beckman
*yb,I frame most of my 2x6 exterior walls in the air similar to what you described. After nailing the bottom plates down, I get the top plate in the air and spike the tops of the studs off a ladder and toe-nail the bottoms. The old builder who taught me this technique in the mid seventies was in his eighties at the time and building 2 houses a year. They were the straightest, squarest houses we ever sheetrocked so when he talked I listened. He had alot to say about houses being framed by "big gangs of unskilled labor". The other thing I remember about him is that he refused to pay piece rate and his were about the only jobs we ever did for an hourly wage, and he was there to remind you not to go too fast every morning."An honest days pay for an honest days labor." He felt very strongly that houses should be framed by a carpenter and his helper period.JonC
*YB,My father in law was still using a folding rule well into the 1980's.He could about have that thing out of his pants pocket,open,mark measurement and closed before I could find my ass with both hands.He saw me using a tapemeasure once and said "you will cut your finger off with that"Good Luck,Stephen
*Gee, for a young man I feel old. I still use a folding rule (8'type). I started out in this business working for my grandfather and a bunch of really old carpenters. Ballon framing was something these people had done and would still do once in awhile. I helped once with a addition that was balloned framed from rought cut stuff. Working on these older houses gives you a mix of building styles and materials. I've even seen a mix of timber framing and ballon framing. The cornors were 12"x12" timbers and the walls were rought cut 2x4's. The timbers were then notched with a inside cornor to match the wall.You have to take all this in as you look back in a building. It's always nice to see how things were done way back then.And they talk about the good old days...........