I have seen a mathmatical formula method of baluster layout for a railing system in a back issue of Fine Home Building, but cannot locate it now. Does anyone know this resource? What methods do you use?
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
A standardized approach, quick-to-install hardware, and a simplified design make building custom casework cost-effective.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
I found the method I was looking for: Fine Homebuilding 3/92 No. 72 page 4.
Does anyone have another method of laying out baluser spacing?
Hello Woodie,
This is a old method that was taught to me many years ago when I was working as a carpenter apprentice .Place a mark 3 1/4 inches from each newel or wall on the floor for the first baluster. Now, using a opened folding 6' ruler with 4 1/2 inch marks similar to a brick layers ruler, place the end of the ruler on the 3 1/4 inch mark and see how it relates to the other mark. At this point, you might need to change the spacing of the balusters to adjust the layout. For example, if the ruler mark is over the other mark a 1/2 inch and depending on the number of balusters this can be adjusted by making the layout 4 9/16, 4 3/8 inch or 4 1/4 etc. inch spacing marks.
A 6' folding rule when fully open is the layout for 4 1/2 inch spacing from end to end.
Hope this is of some help
Larry Martin
Edited 9/1/2002 3:37:49 PM ET by Larry
Larry,
Buy a cheap scientific calculator that allows you to store a number in memory then press + recall equals, + recall equals etc. indefinitely, and it adds up your stored number to the previous value. Casio makes one that does that and is usually available at Stapes for about 10 bucks. Check it out through the blister pack before you buy it. Some calculators are stupid and don't understand what "plus recall" means.
1.Measure the distance between newels.
2.Add to this measurement one spindle diameter (one side of the square bottom).
3. Check the distance center to center between stair spindles of the closest stairway.
4. Divide your total measurement (#2) by #3. This will give you some number like 12.849867398. Write down that number and don't lose it in case you confuse yourself.
5. Divide #2 (distance between newels plus 1 spindle) by 13 and this will give you a number like 3.284563. This is the distance center to center of your layout which most closely matches the spindle layout of the stair railing, assuming that is your objective. Dividing by 13 will give you 12 spindles with 3.284" centers.
6. Say your spindles are 1 1/4 square on the bottom. Burn half that, or 5/8th inch, and mark the floor at 3.284. Enter 3.284563 into the calculater memory then press + recall. You'll get 6.569... mark that. Continue addingall the way down till you are done: or, if you can't convert quickly to fractions in your head, just pick a few easy ones and mark them down on the floor. Then cut a 3 1/4 strong stick and go each way from your reference marks.
7. The construction calculators I've tried are not smart enough to do this. They round off to 1/16ths in each operation of sequential addition operations and can be half an inch off at the end of a 10 foot run of spindles.
8. The reason for burning half a spindle diameter is so that the distance between the face of the first and last spindles and their adjacent newels is the same as the distance between the faces of each spindle to spindle.
What I didn't mention is that when I do the math I would divide my total distance plus 1/2 sp. dia. by 12, by 13 and by 14. And write the results as follows. 11 spindles at 3.4278 12 spindles at 3.2845
13 spindles at 3.1876. Then when I go to the next segment of railing, I can pick whichever is closest to that segment.
Since the recent code changes, and the common practice of 3 spindles per tread on staircases, this is probably no longer necessary because even the shorter runs usually wind up without noticible differences in spacing.
Doing it is much easier than explaining it.
If anyone is still awake and interested, I will be happy upon specific request posted to this forum to describe how this same system can be used very quickly on curved segments of guardrail.
clampman
Hi !clampman
Your calculator method sound like a good idea, only this means I'll need to purchase another tool and also one more tools to carry into the house. My 6'folding rule is used for alot of different things other than measuring and layout. Please do not get the impression I'm being arrogant about this subject, but by the time most are thinking about what do, I can already have it done. For example rail bolts, I could show you a trick how to find both places for drilling before most people can blink their eyes, with only the uses of a pencil. Please let me go back, by the time you've taken the measurement for the layout to put in the calculator, I'm already very close to being finish within 1/16.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/2/2002 7:31:03 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/2/2002 7:36:06 PM ET by Larry
Larry,
Sorry. My message was meant for Woodie not you. By the time I get over to where you type the posts, I forget who I'm sending it to.
Clampman
clampman,
I apologize for coming across to strong about this, but I've did this daily for the last fourteen years. I guess my problem is I've seen to much slamming on these forums.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Larry, the question was about baluster spacing, not rail bolts...we've got the 4" sphere code here, with the most popular 1 1/4" based balusters we lay out on 5" centers, keeps everything nice and safe and inspectable(since the tops are usually 5/8" but the ball can't get up that far), and 5's are so easy to deal with. Find the center between newels, newel and wall, wall to wall, whatever the situation, then set your tape on a multiple of 5 or a multiple 5 plus or minus 2 1/2"(that'd be a 1/2 of 5) , so the end of the tape is less than 4" from the newel or wall. You've got three choices, and the right one is pretty obvious. If everything is to be evenly spaced (newel to newel), that's even easier...we usually try to keep the field of balusters as far apart as an insane inspector feels sane about, and the newels and walls just eat up the difference unoticeably
Hi! Billy, its been sometime since we've had the opportunity to talk but like your method of figuring out baluster spacing,you don't need to purchase any unnecessary tools.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/2/2002 10:29:28 PM ET by Larry
I use the 10 buck scientific calculator, also, and not just because of the price, it tells me what I need to know when I need to know it, from cabinets to stairs...if it ever lets me down, I'll move up in a heartbeat...haven't hit that wall yet, though...
I need to put stairs in a small space. What is the maximum rise and the minimum tread I can use? Jlorda
Woodie I like Clampman's method but I would revise what what he wrote only
to recommend forget getting the "cheap scientific calculator" a to
spend a few extra bucks to get a Construction
Master Pro or at least a Sonin
110-IC-YL Inchmate Calculator. They will give you all your figures in feet-inches
and fractions so the chance of errors making the conversion from decimal calculations
to imperial measurements is eliminated They also are specifically designed to
perform other various construction calculations and they come with handy little
booklets to explain those functions. The links I provided above are to the [email protected]
but they are usually available in local lumber yards, many hardware stores and
I say them earlier this weekend in either a Staples or Office Depot (or maybe
it was both of them??). The point is they are not that hard to find anymore.
Larry method is fine too although Larry, your anti-calculator argument is a
weak one. The calculator is smaller and more easily hidden in a pocket than
you folding rule and if yo are going to complain about having one more thing
to carry you know you are in the wrong business,... geez!. The calculator will
also do tons of things that your folding rule wont either (like figure out your
markup when your writing out a bill! try that with a folding rule). How do you
use you folding rule to figure out curved sections? By marking out chords? That's
not nearly as accurate as a calculated method and I'll even bet you that I'm
just as fast with a calculator as you are with a rule since I use both all the
time and I find them to be pretty much the same.
There is also a graphical quick no-math way of laying out straight-run baluster
spacing that I'll look for an explanation of somewhere. Maybe Joe Fusco has
it on his site, he loves writing and drawing about stuff like that. I'm a little
too wrapped up in other stuff tonight to draw it out and write about it. Anyone
else want to take a shot at it if you know what I'm referring to?
One thing to keep in mind though no matter what method anyone uses for layout
ya still need to keep in mind that the spacing needs to be tight enough that
a 4" sphere can't pass through your balustrade anywhere for it to be code
approved.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Walking off spacing with a divider works pretty well, too.
Ken Hill
Jerrald Hayes,
This is a bit off the subject, but how do you insert hyperlinks into the message posting box?
Clampman
Clampman if you're on on a Windows machine and running MS Internet Explorer it is
my understanding that there are then online tools in the browser window that
allow you to insert links and other HTML type stuff.
Unfortunately I don't have the convenience of that since I am on a Macintosh.
The upside to that is I am on a Mac so I don't have to really worry much at
all about viruses and my system and applications rarely crash and I can expect
even better stability now since I upgraded my Operating System and most of my
applications too from 9.2 to OSX.2
( Jaguar) over this extended weekend.
Previous to this evening I had been writing and composing all my posts in Macromedia's
Dreamweaver/Ultradev but I upgraded today to the new Dreamweaver MX so that's
what I'm using now. It could be a pretty expensive proposition to just to run
and use Dreamweaver MX for just writing posts to this forum but I use it also
for my own company's web site(s) development and to develop sites for some other
contractors too.
A while back in a Discussion entitled Crown Question here we got even further
off the subject than we already were and starting with msg#
21693.32 there was a little bit of discussion of HTML editors and stuff
like that. You might want to check that out for some information. Also you should
check out the Sandbox
here and post any questions you come up with there and then the Taunton
System Ops can help you too.
What kind of Computer and Web Browser are you using? If you are on a Mac I
have just this past week read up on some solutions that might work for you if
your willing to learn a little basic HTML. If your on a Windows machine you'll
need to use MS Explorer as I mentioned and then there are probably hundreds
of people here that can help you with any questions you have.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Thanks Jerrald,
I'm on a PC. And also , unfortunately, on AOL. Finally got a practice web site up which I did in the blind with MS Publisher and am pretty excited about as a marketing tool. I notice a whole bunch of guys put links to their sites with every post and no one seems to mind as long as thy are not proseletizing.
I need to squeeze my text down so scrolling horizontally isn't necessary to read it and learn about HTML tags etc before submitting it to the search engines. But I'm pretty excited.
Clampman
AOL Browser huh? I think you are probably totally out of luck then. Sorry about
that.
I generally don't publicize my web site here since that link might taint or
slant the stats I keep on page accesses. In other word clicking on my signature
graphic will take you no where. I think it's more important to know what my
potential clients are looking at and searching for on my site and I can then
use that information to develop the sites content and features further.
Earlier this evening however I did post some links to pages on my main company
site to help explain a couple of things in another discussion and give the fellow
who was asking questions regarding Handrail
termination.some visual references. I do think knowing and using HTML can
really help explain things and make things clearer so I will use links to my
site under those circumstances. I know no one on this site is really going to
hire us for anything so what would be the point other than that.
You might want to send me your URL for me to take a look at. I am sure I can
help you with the HTML code to workout any appearance problems. And even if
I couldn't one of my brothers and his wife are the team behind EMSVillage.com
and Fire-RescueVillage.com
and my other sister-in-law is part of the StanleyWorks
design team. Somewhere in our family I am sure I can always find some web help
and expertise. (I take credit for designing the EMSVillage and Fire-rescue Village
"roof top" logos.)
Also I will tell you from experience that submitting a contractor web site
to search engines is pretty unimportant and ineffective. You need for the people
in your local region to see your site and not the rest of the United States
and the rest of the world. Sure it helps at times but there are much better
and more effective ways to drive local and regional traffic to your site.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jerry,
Recently you used my name on another forum without my authorization, may a ask why? Now your using it here without even acknowledging me first, again why? Do you truly think you know more about this topic than some of the other people posting here?
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/2/2002 11:28:34 PM ET by Larry
Larry I politely mentioned you in that other forum because I was giving you credit for a method and technique that I was considering adopting and using. I absolutely and very certainly don't need your "authorization" to do that. You've written about the method and technique plenty of times in the
forums before, it's on your web site and it's general public knowledge for those
that really read these online forums what you think and do regarding railing
installations. I WAS JUST GIVING YOU FAIR CREDIT. In the past you have had a
tendency at times to "go off the deep end" and get really hostile
and angry with people in these forums and you'll notice that one of the early
posters in that other forums discussion mentioned that "A guy used to post
here that said he used Senco clip guns, don't ask me his name because i will
not tell it to you." Maybe that's why he didn't want to mention you at
all.
You then say "Now your using it here without even
acknowledging me first, again why?" What in God's name are you talking
about? I can talk about you or anyone else anytime I want too. Really, just
what in God's name are you talking about? I just mentioned that I liked your
layout method too but I took issue with your anti-calculator sentiment. Unless
I've suddenly lost all of my skills with the English language by writing your
name "Larry" when I am referring to what you have said I think (know)
that constitutes an acknowledgement. I have just acknowledged you for what you
have said. What more do you want or expect? There must be something about your
interpretation of what constitutes "free speech" that is different
from most everybody elses.
Gee just toughen up and learn to discuss issues, ideas, techniques, and methods
like the rest of us. Don't start getting all worked up on us again. You have
a lot of real good ideas on railing installation that ended up getting lost
on most of the people here because they react to you paranoid hostility first.
It took a long while for you to work out you problems with Stan and get that
relationship on peer sharing level. Do not make the mistake of getting
on my wrong side now. DO NOT START "SLAMMING" ME as you would
put it. I respectfully disagree with you and I was very polite and civil about
it. Lets keep it that way.
Yeah I know a lot about stairs, I know a lot about railing installation, and
I know a lot about railing fabrication too but I don't ever pretend to know
it all and I am always learning from everyone on all skill levels. If you took
umbrage with my comment "I'll even bet you that I'm just as fast with
a calculator as you are with a rule..." just get over it. I could
have just as easily taken umbrage with your comment that "by
the time you've taken the measurement for the layout to put in the calculator,
I'm already very close to being finish within 1/16". While the comment
was not directed towards me it might as well have been. I am very technical
savvy and use my calculator(s) all over the place for all sorts of things. I
am sure you are very fast with a rule but so am I with a calculator so I could
easily take that as a put down of my techniques and styles but I didn't freak
out about it like you sometimes do.
Relax Larry I've been on your side, don't make the mistake now of alienating
and ticking me off now. I've done nothing but show you respect and here you
are looking to start something up again like you did with Stan. My recommendation
is mellow out now, before you blow it all again.
In honest answer to your question "Do you truly think you know more about
this topic than some of the other people posting here?"
Yes I do. There's no false humility here on my part. I know more
than some and less than others. It all
depends on the specific subject matter and detail at hand. If you don't want
to hear what I have to say the technology here on this site make it very convenient
for you to set your preferences to ignore me.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Edited 9/3/2002 1:24:25 AM ET by Jerrald Hayes
Jerry,
"Larry method is fine too although Larry, your anti-calculator argument is a weak one." How can you possibly make this statement. In the last fourteen years I've tried everything to find the best and most accurate methods,this is not something I do for a hobby . Normally there is not a day that goes by I'm personally not layout baluster spacings.
About new technology read my profile.However in my opinion in handrail work there is no need or place for a calculator period.If a young carpenter can not learn to use and read a rule then how in the world is he ever going to do the work?
My argument being a weak one I think it's only fair to know approximately how many rail system you've personally installed yourself, because the fact of the matter is Jerry,I recent that statement.
Its because of people like you is why I'm so concern about the safety in SC1 Clip gun being used for connecting handrail joints. Just for the record I normally do not have a problem with someone using my name, however issues surrounding this particular SC1gun and the uses of it I would appreciate it if I was given the opportunity to say exactly how I stand.
I've notice you've also used another person name as possibly being a expert in this area, can prove it? The problem here is some people are led to believe someone is qualified as a expert and in reality its a scam.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/3/2002 1:54:05 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 1:55:38 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 1:56:34 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 4:17:35 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 4:33:55 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 5:10:51 AM ET by Larry
Larry:
I hope I am not the "other" person you are referring to....if it is..I have never claimed to be an expert and thus am not "scamming" anyone. I am just a learning lurker.
By the way..hows the railing business? Still backed up?
Hi !Stan,
No you were not the person I was referring to, actually it wasn't until after the posting that it hit me your first name was mention.
Thanks for asking about my railing business , its really starting to take off.
Talk to you later need to think about a respond for Jerry, probably owe him a apology
Its been good to hear from you.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/3/2002 1:53:12 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 1:59:48 PM ET by Larry
Stan I believe the "other" person reference that Larry is talking
about is from when I wrote:
While I don't consider nor have I ever said that Joe is an "expert on
stair railing installation" I do know, as do a lot of other people here,
that Joe is extremely smart, he's very very good with math, and to our benefit
he seems to really like producing graphical drawings and diagrams to support
what he's talking about, in short I really value and appreciate his input on
building topics, techniques, and methods even when I don't necessarily agree
with them. It just so happens that I thought he might have know exactly what
the layout method I was referring to in msg#22825.9
if he happened to surf on by to read this topic.
While I don't know Jay Carroll and to the best of my knowledge I have never
talked with him through these forums I could have just as easily mentioned his
name. Jay ( or should I say Mr .Carroll) has written a great book called Measuring,
Marking & Layout: A Builder's Guide and I am sure he too would have
some tips and advice on baluster layout methods too even if he didn't also recognize
the method I was trying to refer too.
I will bet that if you take all the railing that Joe Fusco, Jay Carroll, and
I have installed it would still only be a fraction of the total number of railings
that Larry has installed but the question that Woodie first put out
to start this topic was about baluster layout NOT handrailing installation per
se. And he was soliciting other various points of views and methods
("What methods do you use?..." &
"Does anyone have another method of laying out baluser
spacing?") not just one! I am sure there are people who have NEVER
installed handrailings who would have some ideas on layout methods. My mother
has a piano student who's now just a freshman in high school who has probably
never even picked up a woodworking tool but since he's a little spatial, graphical,
and mathematical genius I'll bet you even he would have some good and fresh
ideas about layout methods. You never really know where good advice will come
from.
Experience is a great thing to have and often the contractors who use us tell
their clients that one of our strong points is the personal experience that
I personally have as a designer builder and artisan. I generally try to play
that down and point out that experience whether measured in years or in quantity
of repeated techniques can be misleading. I often even tell clients the story
of how the best ideas and techniques I had one of my more notable projects came
from a seventeen year old girl at the time. Unfortunately sometimes
20 years of experience can be really seen as just 1 year of experience repeated
20 times.
Yankee second baseman Alfonso Soriano is arguably the most valuable and best
second baseman in baseball today and yet 95% of the other second basemen have
more experience and notably more at bats. I have designed more web sites than
my sister-in-law and have many more years of experience with computers in general
but she is the one who is talented enough to be working on the StanleyWorks
site. Larry I am sorry but I also think your argument that because of your "fourteen
years experience" of laying out balusters every day that that makes you
the final or better authority on the subject a weak one too.
What I am objecting to here is your narrow minded absolutist point of view
that "in my opinion in handrail work there is no need or place for a calculator
period." That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. My opinion is
that any and every carpenter should be able to understand and use both your
methods and methods using a calculator. As you will recall I mentioned that
I use both and that's why I say they can both be just as fast and effective.
Larry I'm not at all exclusively installing stair handrailings. In fact most
of my time is devoted to building and running a company. I have (I think) 28
years of experience across a wide spectrum of theatrical design and engineering,
as well as building and remodeling. I am always researching and looking for
new better and more effective techniques and methods of doing things for both
my benefit, my company's benefit, and the benefit of the people who work on
my projects whether they are employees or trade partners.
That was why I started the JLC discussion on Pneumatic
Clip Guns. I actually first
posed the question here but I didn't get any response on it from anyone.
After reading your posts on the subject of railing installation here and there
I decided I liked your methods and your tools too. With your unexplained paranoid
absolutist hostility you are really starting to make me regret that now. I brought
the subject up both to solicit other points of views on the techniques tools
and methods as well as hopefully exposing some of the new comers to these forums
to the techniques in case they have never heard of them before.
Larry I think you need to get some humility and realize that you are not the
final absolute word on handrailing installation despite all your experience
and knowledge and that handrailing installation is not an entity entirely unto
itself. Layout while an important part of handrailing installation is not exclusively
parcel to it and there are other opinions on the subject of layout to be considered.
I think you need to expand your world and your point of view. This isn't the
old Soviet Union where there is only one right way to do anything. That didn't
work for them and I don't think it works anywhere at all.
Regarding when you say : "About new technology read
my profile." Read your profile where? Are you talking about your
AccuTools web site or
something here on BreakTime? I've read everything on both the old black background
version of your web site and the newer remodeled version too. I will bet you
that I have read every single post you have ever made on the subject of handrailings.
I've even done Google searches for you and your site when I somehow lost the
bookmark so I've read pretty much everything you have ever had to say online
on handrailing installation. One of the impressions I picked up through reading
all that was your strong anti-calculator bias.
You're anti-calculator. I am both pro-calculator and pro-analog measuring tool
methods. We differ in our opinions although my opinion is wider and more expansive
and therefore inclusive of your point of view. Calculators are great and important
useful tools. This morning I used mine to make some foot candle (lumen) calculations
using the inverse square law to help select the correct MR-16 lamps for a project
we're doing. You can't use a folding rule to do that so that's another reason
why I think it's important to carry a calculator too.
I also just recalled another railing installation we did where the metal baluster
layout was done in a specific and particular alternating pattern. Some of the
blusters were on something like a 9-1/2" wide module while some were 3-1/2"
and some were single 1/2" diameter baluster with a 1-1/8" brass bulbous
in the center. You know what tool I used to figure out and make adjustments
to that layout? Microsoft Excel on my Mac Powerbook laptop. It made short work
of working out the relationship ratios of the different pattern groups.
Larry I am done arguing with you on this, looking at the times of edits you
made on your last post I think you need to get some rest and look at all of
this with a clear calm "zen mind, beginner's mind" point of view.
Stop freaking out and climbing "the ladder of inference". I've got
to get back to work now.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jerry,
First up front, if I've been wrong here I have no problem apologizing . Second I do not have any problems with standing behind anything I've written, also anyone can without my permission quote my writings . My problem is several months ago I recommended the uses of the Senco SC1clip gun for connecting handrail joint's, however in the last several week's I've had to do a complete turn around on that matter because of the liability issues etc. Let me say personally I only recommend other than my own, two tools by manufacturer's name. One is no longer manufacturer, the other is a 6' folding rule. Also I receive no royalty from anyone other than LJ Smith on the AccuMark, and this is probably not worth mentioning.
Over the last several months, I can not begin to count the times I've seen people in the position so-called expert promoting product without making anyone aware whether or not their receiving royalty of any kind. In my opinion if someone is receiving royalty for promoting a product and does not reveal this up front, then it's unethical.
I actually believe the marketing term slamming is being widely used on this forum and others. This is something that was widely used in the boat,car business etc.. and its not very hard to see if you know what to look for. Let me go on to say that some people are being used without their knowledge. this is similar to what happen with me and the SC1. However I can prove there was a demonstration given by a Senco Rep. because I kept his business card.. Now its very easy for them to take the position of not knowing this gun is being used for this propose if someone get hurt because of nothing being in writing, only someone credibility.
Anyway I've probably did not address all the issues you raised in your posting, however if I've offended anyone my apology. Try and understand I'm not your typical carpenter.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/3/2002 2:54:13 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 2:55:29 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 2:57:19 PM ET by Larry
Larry your apology is very graciously accepted and it's been my thinking all
along that this has got to be some kind of gross misunderstanding since I've
always be a vocal supporter of your techniques and methods. Sometimes I just
think you are your own worst enemy and I think that's most unfortunate because
you obviously have some great ideas and techniques to share and they may be
over looked at times by people who are not as tolerant and as open minded as
I am. I mentioned you on the JLC site when somebody you had alienenated wouldn't
because I think your talent, methods of work, and ideas are excellent and very
well worth considering. Anyone who ignores that part of you because of of your
communication difficulties is to use the cliches "cutting off there nose
to spite their face" and " they can't see the forest through the trees".
Generally I hate cliches but I think their use might be very apropos here.
I'm an artist, really as in a painter and illustrator (check out Crown
Cuestion? msg#21693.44 if you don't believe me,one of my pieces is posted
there, some people do find that hard to believe), or at least I was once upon
a time. Back in my twenties I had a real problem when anybody said anything
nice about my work. I always complained and said it succkked because there was
always something in it that I knew I could do better. Well saying that when
someone was trying to pay me a compliment was really bad form, impolite, and
it alienated and ticked off a lot of people. A girl friend of mine in my early
thirties pointed that out to me and whenever it came up and she was standing
nearby she would often whisper just loud enough so that I could hear it "just
say THANK YOU Jerry". Boy what I learned fro that! Thank you Ann wherever
you are today. That kind of reminds me that I just read somewhere that when
Caesar walked the streets of Rome and the crowds roared their adulation that
Caesar had a slave walk behind him and whisper in his ear "Remember, you
are only a mortal.''
Anyway my point is Larry I wish you had someone who would read all this stuff
with you and then remind you to step back calm down and read everything
with a Zen Mind Beginners Mind. Do you know what I mean by a Zen Mind?
It's about Right Practice, Right Attitude, and Right Understanding. It's about
the open mind that allows for both doubt and possibility. It's about suspending
judgment so that learning can take place.
Thanks for thinking this all through again I am sure it's to all of our collective
benefit. Regarding "Try and understand I'm not your typical carpenter."
Boy don't I know that. I very empathetic in that regard too in that I have often
heard people describe me as intense, quixotic, enigmatic, and iconoclastic.
I think the iconoclastic part of my personality may be what got your dander
up a little. I'm always challenging and questioning the "establishment"
and the status quo. Thanks again for making the effort to both look at this
misunderstanding again and work with me on this. I do appreciate that.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Good morning Jerry,
First let me thank you for raising the issue on the other forum and using my name, because if you wouldn't I probably would never have respond to that discussion . It was not until being part of that discussion did I relies the big problem or picture on that issue. Actually I believe everyone here who has any interest in that subject should probably thank you.
After things have a opportunity to calm down, I would like to have the opportunity to address the issue you've raise about me and the calculator. I would like to give my reasons why I'm very firm about it in the area of training.
Anyway earlier said I have no problem admitting it when I'm wrong. With that said,I would like to make a personal public apology to you.
Thanks again
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Edited 9/4/2002 6:01:55 AM ET by Larry
Jerry,
This was a topic I started on another forum several months ago.First let me say I'm not trying to change the subject matter here, I'm only addressing issues with the uses of the typical carpenter working in the field with his/ her tools. Let me also say a little bit about this book. I can personally guarantee and have no problem putting my reputation on the line saying that anyone with or using it would no longer be asking questions about its subject matter.
Trigonometry and Carpentry
Larry Martin 11/29/01 12:50 p.m.
I would like every one that is working in carpentey today to ask him self one questions. Why or some of you just now hearing about this book??????? This is a very easy book to understand and use that a school child could read. it uses a mathematical formula to sole a problem or problems. Using a two step system or marks to fine one point.
A.F.J Riechers
Box 405
Palo Alto, California 94302
Full Length Roof Framer
Copyright by A.F Riechers
1917, 1944 and 1969
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Jerald. Batting, yes. Fielding, no.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Yeah Calvin you're right about about fielding. While he may not be the best fielding second basemen he is above average in fielding his position and you need to remember he is playing out of position. He came up as a shortstop but was moved and converted to second base and I think that one day he will rise to the very top as a fielder too. Giving that HE IS THE BEST HITTING second basemen in baseball and he' is one of the better fielding second basemen too I think that arguably makes him the best all around second basemen in baseball. Anyway I think he worked to help illustrate my point and I love to watch his swing.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jerrald,
Please don't call me Mr. Carroll--unless you're less than 18 years old. But don't call me Jay either because my name is John. ;-) Thanks for the positive comments about my book.
To All,
As it so happens, there is a mistake in one of the drawings in the section on baluster layout. For those who bought the first printing of the hardback version of "Measuring, Marking & Layout, I've attached a correction. The problem area is circled. I urge you to print it out and insert the copy on p. 176 of the book. I don't want you cursing my name some day in the future when your baluster layout ends up wrong because you followed that drawing. That mistake was corrected in subsequent printings. Thanks to all who have bought my book.
Concerning this discussion, I think it raises a couple of interesting issues. First, there is no single right way to lay out most things. Individuals have different visualization and mathematical skills, different tools, different temperaments. They often settle on a given procedure because they know it inside out and are completely comfortable with it. In a forum such as this it is good to get as many different approaches as possible and it is not necessary to debate which is best. To me all layout procedures that produce an accurate layout are correct.
A second issue is the difference between math and layout. In the last few years I've worked for a couple of professors of math. In conversations about construction layout, which they both found very interesting, they agreed that math and layout are two different things. Calculators give us numbers; they don't lay out anything. The numbers we get from calculators depend on the numbers we put in. Then, when we have the numbers supplied by the calculators, we have to apply them to our materials. This path is littered with obstacles to trip us up. Calculators are nice tools but they don't lay out the bird's mouth of a rafter or the top and bottom steps on a stair stringer. Long before we had calculators (and I'm old enough to remember those days), we were able to lay out rafters and staircases with precision. To me, the real challenge is to see and understand the problem in its entirety and to remember to allow for every detail that goes into the layout. The math is easy; it rarely goes beyond what we learned in high school. The devil, to use the old cliche', is in the details. To avoid missing details, I almost always make a drawing or a sketch.
If you look at the simple drawing I included with this (I hope it is clear; I never know how my scanned drawings will look when downloaded), I think it clears up the three most important questions about baluster layout. First, it shows that the size of the layout in both cases is the space between the newels plus the thickness of one balluster. Second, it shows that the increments equal one space between balusters and one baluster thickness. And third, it shows where to begin and end the layout and how to mark it off. With this information, you can quickly find the increment size you need using a calculator or even (gasp) a pencil and paper. You can then lay out the increments using a divider, a basic calculator or a construction calculator. The exact procedure you use to lay out the increments really isn't important; there are shortcuts in all three methods.
As for me, I use a basic calculator, which cost $5 and has an add-on feature (these days, almost every calculator has the add-on feature). When I've finished adding the increments, I end up with a list of progressively larger numbers with a decimal portion at the end of each. It's a simple matter to convert these decimals to sixteenths; you simply multiply the decimal by 16 and the product is the number of sixteenths: 13/16 = .8125; .8125 X 16 = 13. After a few decades of doing this, it's second nature to me and never a source of confusion or the cause of "costly errors" as the purveyors of construction calculators like to say. However, you don't really need to convert the decimalized inch to sixteenths for this operation. Lufkin makes a 144-in. tape laid out in continuous inches that are divided into tenths--the machinists scale. With one of these (tapes model #C9212X), you can simply take the decimalized inches straight to the wood.
Like most machinists, however, I've recently gone over to that other decimal scale, the metric system. The inch is officially 2.54 cms and that number is all one needs to convert from inches to cms. If you have a distance of, say, 117 inches that needs to be divided into 22 even increments, all you have to do is multiply 117 x 2.54 to get into metric. After dividing the product, 279.18 cm, by 22, you have the increment size: 13.508 cm. You can then use the add on feature to add up the cumulative totals in cms. and apply them directly to the rail with a metric tape. If any of you would like to start messin' with metric, I'd advise that you get a metric only tape measure as opposed to the combined English/metric; the former are a lot easier to look at. These are available at this link: http://www.right-tool.com/right-tool/starhigqualm.html
John
Here's another go at that drawing.
Hi!John,
Congratulations on your book. If you would not mine I'd like to ask a question. Are you doing a drawing on every single layout or balcony area? The reason for question is because some homes have multiple areas .
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Edited 9/3/2002 6:37:07 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 6:41:32 PM ET by Larry
Thanks Larry. In response to your question, no, I don't do a formal drawing of every section of balustrade I build. In rereading my post I can see how I might leave that impression and I apologize for overstating the case. I've laid out enough balustrades to know the basic drill and I don't need a drawing for that task. I did on my first balustrade, though. Although I don't make a drawing, I mark the plan on the underside of the top rail and review it carefully before I begin assembly. This is layout as opposed to math. To me, understanding the layout and being able to review and verify that it is correct is the key to avoiding mistakes. On some of my jobs, this requires a detailed drawing, on others it requires a simple sketch. For many or the tasks that I do, it simply requires a series of lines and Xs on the workpiece. --John
Haven't got a clue who you are, John, me being a furniture maker 'an all just dropping in from over the fence at Knots, but at long last someone here is singing a tune I do understand, i.e., metric. But I've never used a centimetre in my life. Most woodwokers that adopt the metric system tend to use the engineering convention of metres and millimetres, totally ignoring centimetres. Sorry for the funny spelling too, but I'm not an American either, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.
RJFurniture
Edited 9/3/2002 9:03:27 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
RJ, The tape measures I have are laid out in cms, which are comfortable to my American eyes. I can see, however, that it would not be difficult to think entirely in terms of meters and mms. An inch, therefore, is officially 25.4 mms. Are you old enough to remember pre-metric days in England? If so, you're familiar with both systems and therefore have every right to ridicule our medieval measuring system. Ha, ha, that ought to roil the waters! --John
Actually, John, I rather like the inch and the foot, and I am certainly old enough to remember working in the imperial system. We were converted almost overnight at the company I worked for in the UK in the late '70's from feet, inches and fractions to metric, and I've never gone back, even though I currently live in the US. It took me just two--maybe three days to realise that it didn't matter a darn what those funny numbers looked like in inches, but that 100 mm looks just like 100 mm, and always does, and that's all that mattered, and the arithmetic was a piece of pish too. On the other hand, a 4,000 sq. ft. building is a good number to grasp, whereas what does 372 square metres look like? And what about a board that is 1220 mm X 2440 mm compared to a 4' X 8', and how does each sub-divide neatly into useful 'square' units? Square feet win every time on that front. It often seems to me that if a foot was divided into ten inches, which could somehow be further subdivided into 100 units that could conveniently go on a tape measure, such as 1/10's and 1/20th's (for the average jack woodbutcher like you and I) then the ideal measuring system could be on the way to being devised. Now my stepson, who is a surveyor (for builders even) works mostly in decimal feet and metres, and he's got all those conversions from one system to the other off pat in his head, much like I have, e.g., 10.76 sq. ft. =1 sq. metre, and 1 cubic metre equals about 424 board feet, or 35.35 cubic feet. and so on. I've been carrying that useless baggage around for years, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
RJ I think the centimeter thing might be "American Metric" (there's an oxymoron for you) since in the trade show circles I've worked in we all talked centimeters as well as millimeter and meters too. And come to think of it some Irish and German designers I've done some work for once to the best of my recolection didn't talk that way at all. Interesting.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Americans I'm sure are not guilty of that piece of idiocy Jerrald, but centimetres are part of the metric system. One metre is subdivided into 100 centimetres, each of which is subdivided into 10 millimetres, as I'm sure you know, therefore 1,000 millimetres = 1 metre. I can't tell you why engineers adopted the millimetre and metre only thing, but they did, but I'd guess it was to avoid adding an additional decimal point, e.g., M1.25.4 is one metre, 25 centimetres, and 4 millimetres, which is the same as M1.254, one metre and 254 mm, or 1,254 mm. It looks to me like the French screwed that one up too, never mind four grains of barley laid end to end being an inch, or whatever, he, he! Slainte, RJ. RJFurniture
RJ,
Like you I instantly know that a house that's 60 ft. long is a long house and a bathroom that's 7 ft. by 5 ft. is tiny. Give those dimensions to me in meters and I can't really say until I've made the conversion. But isn't that a function of our upbringing? I had an employee from Chile who for a while could not really assess the size of a house or a room until he had converted them to metric dimensions. A similiar situation obtained with a client from Germany.
I will always think in Imperial units when I assess the size of something because for the first forty years of my life that's all I used. I don't think this will be the case for my son, who's 9 years old. He's active in swimming, for example, and most of the pools are laid out in meters as well as the heights of diving boards. He's growing up in a world where liters, metric wrenches and rulers that are laid out in both inches and cms are commonplace. Such things were just about unknown here when I was a kid.
My problem with the Imperial measures is not their size, which are perfectly handy in many ways. It's the fact that they are incongruent with our math. Recognizing this, Thomas Jefferson worked out a decimalized Imperial system much like the one you described. Unfortunately, just as Jefferson was putting the final touches on his system, the scholars and scientists of continental Europe agreed to adopt the metric system. Jefferson shelved his system and enthusiastically supported the new metric system. --JC
John, I had no idea of the Jefferson move-- fascinating. Now, did I not hear/see something on the TV just the other night that the British sank/captured/impounded a ship bearing a French scientist/representative that was bringing with him an 'official' metre stick for the Americans to work with? It was during some wee spat between the Brits and the Americans, and I may be wrong, but if it's true, isn't it fsacinating how the course of history can be changed by chance happenings? Slainte, RJ.. RJFurniture
RJ,
That story sounds familiar but I can't verify it. Concerning Jefferson's system, I've done a little research and here's the timeline of events. In 1790, Talleyrand called on the National Assembly of the French Revolution to devise a national system of weights and measures. The French Academy devised what is now called the metric system and it was put into effect in 1795. In America, when representatives from the independent states assembled to draw up a constitution in 1787, they included a clause that gave Congress the power "to fix the Standards of Weights and Measures" (Article 1, section 8). In 1790, during the first Administration, Washington's Secretary of State, Thomas Jefferson, produced his "Report...on the Subject of Establishing a Uniformity in the Weights, Measures and Coins of the U.S." He was not aware of Talleyrand's simultaneous report at the time. Congress followed Jefferson's suggestion to adopt a decimalized currency but, to this day, has never formally established a system of weights and measures. --JC
Edited 9/5/2002 8:56:54 PM ET by John Carroll
Hi, Larry-
Good knowledge you have to share with us, but................
CUT THE PUGILISTIC CRAP OR GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!
With respect, Ken Hill
Hi! Ken,
"PUGILISTIC"
You may a good point, actually the third evaluation given by the dictionary is better description.
With respect,Larry Martin
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Edited 9/5/2002 3:58:17 PM ET by Larry
To All,
Probably a good place to start is asking everyone who believe I'm being unreasonable here to please go back to the beginning of this topic and maybe a few others. What's happen here and elsewhere has taking place everytime I've tried to joint a discussion. Please try and put your self in my place, after basic being run out of here several month ago because of everytime I inner a discussion someone will try and attack my credibility.
Just recently as you all know I started a subject about safety that there again my credibility was put in to question. Someone has already pointed out that my patent number at the bottom is offensive to him and others. I could very easy make the statement about what's place at the bottom of his was just as the offensive to me and possibly others. About my patent there is over three very hard years of work receiving one. It is public documentation that anyone can verify and not in anyway met to be bragging, however I have remove it. Please keep in mine this is something that can be proven , with paperwork equivalent to a book. There are authors and I'm not implying in anyway the one who has posed here that are being held as experts or authorities in the field of carpentry with no way of verify it . I'm sorry if that offense certain people, but by being a old carpenter by trade it offense me seeing young carpenter's who might be looking for good information being slammed all the time by marketing experts in buying products they'll never use.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Larry:
When you talk about slick marketers trying to "slam" their accu....ah I mean products, who do you mean?
Do you own stock in Luftkin or do you sell Luftkin folding rules on the side? That is the only tool that could possibly be used to layout balusters in a fast and accurate manor, according to your posts. So by your own theory you must be financially tied to the company, you could not possibly just like using it to layout balusters.
People posting quips and quotes after their name gives insight to what the poster thinks is funny, important, etc... Posting achievements and a resume is to say the least tacky.
Larry it is the content of the post, the information conveyed and the manor that it is presented that brings respect among peers on this forum. The people on this forum that get get the most respect do nothing to demand it, on the contrary they usually say their piece and let others decide for themselves the merits of their point.
It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and be known a fool.
Paul
known fool
I wonder who is really being seen as the real fool here, also look at who is mentioning a manufacture name.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/5/2002 9:08:23 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/5/2002 9:10:22 PM ET by Larry
Larry, Larry, Larry, chill out.
You know, you are always on this crusade for this or that, and you always end up taking a sword through the heart. I have some pretty headstrong ideas about this or that, but if someone disagrees so what? They either make a mistake or I learn something.
I know I have a lot to learn so I hang out here when I have nothing to do. The last thing I need to deal with on my free time is friction, so lose the attitude. I wonder if you want the carpentry world to revolve around you because you are the man for rails. If so, you are in the wrong place. This is a place equals share info. And to be equal all you have to do is log on and have an interest in homebuilding. While there may be a couple of guys that come close, none of us know it all.
I wish you would just start a thread in constuction techniques to share the little tricks you know, many would benefit from that. You know the sort of thing, come on, lighten up.
So cool bro'
Well put!
Mellow meow!
Purring contentedly
Jeeze, have I been hanging out with Newf?Excellence is its own reward!
Where is Newf, btw?
I was going to add something to the other Larry thread, but I can't find it, ;-). See you later, yawn...
Do any of you guys like a good challenge, will I have one for you because it will be a good test for your mine. Go to the Washington Co. public school systems record office in Hagerstown, Md. 21740 and look up who was general superintended or supervisor of record on building of a new elementary school that was built in 1979. I believe you'll find the budget four million dollars. I also believe you'll find this person took the project over right after the footing were installed and the same person took the project to completion. Do any of you like a good challenge will go for it and bring back the person name.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/6/2002 7:44:17 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 8:14:51 AM ET by Larry
It's a shame that I followed this whole thread wanting to learn any tidbit about baluster layout and the thread ends up degenerating into pointless drivel and a total waste of time on my 28k world wide wait. Now that only the perps are still here, a few tips on layout would probably be lost.
I am annoyed with people who are math illiterate. Usually they are the first to poo poo a calculator on the job. They often have those feet-inch calculators because the conversion from decimals to feet and inches still befuddles them. Most were taking shop in high school if they didn't drop out and never took algebra or geometry.
I like to use a calculator for baluster layout too. I like to clamp ten together and and divide that width by ten to get a real accurate width. That number stays in the calculator memory among others. (In decimal form of course.) Then with a little arithmetic, geometry, a memory recall and a square root button... a perfect layout. Still some of the other methods discussed sound quicker and just as accurate.
Thank you all for the tips. For the rest of you ... Please stick with the subject
We may be slow, But we're expensive.
Thanks Myci, back on the subject would be good.
My nephew has what he calls his baluster stick.
It is a 2x2 marked differently on four sides
1. 3 1/4" spacing
2. 3 1/2" spacing
3. 3 3/4" spacing
4. 4"
He just rolls the stick between the posts for the right layout. Transfers the marks to the grille top and bottom and builds the grille.I think it is a pretty slick stick trick. :-)Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Hi!Myci.
"I like to use a calculator for baluster layout too. I like to clamp ten together and and divide that width by ten to get a real accurate width."
You've made some great points, however if you wouldn't mine I'd like to address this one. Why take the time to used something that's going to give you a measurement in tens, when your already holding a tool in your hand that's measured in 16th. Someone will need to take the time to convert your method when it's not necessary
Baluster's spacing can be off by as much 1/4" and never be seen by the eye even if your looking for it. so my questions to you and anyone else is why worry about a ten when it's just creating more work. also caring a unnecessary tool.
Another example I'm noticed a drawing useing a set of calipers. I mean no disrespect to anyone but here again we are caring another unnecessary tool that is slowing you down that's only benefit is creating a unnecessary accuracy.
Let me say something else about people using different method of handrail installation. the thing I've notice is there's no consistency with any of them except the one LJ Smith have in their book. that method is very accurate but also time consuming, not even taking into account the tools that or not needed. Certain tool companies love it and most carpenter's pay outrageousi prices for them, the AccuMark I invented is a good example, but at this time there's nothing I can done about it . hopefully in goodtime if the lord willing that will change.
Let me also say something else about the tools or the once I have available with me. Keep in mine I'm only doing rail installation, so the tools I'm caring is minimal. Someone could be doing carpentry work and very well be caring a caliper for a different need, however I've never seems anyway in handrail installation one needed . I certainly do not a problem if someone wants to disagree
Hopefully this might put the subject back on track
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/6/2002 1:53:17 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 1:57:52 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 1:59:32 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 2:01:53 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 2:08:29 PM ET by Larry
All,
For the people who taking the time to read my post, thanks. First I apologize for the how hard it is to read etc.. Second and probably most important please give me possibly as much as 10 minute to try and correct any arrow. This doesn't mean there won't be some. For some reason I cannot see my arrows until after I've posed. I know that probably sound crazy to a few of you,however there's nothing I can do about it. Again please be patient and I'll try my very best.
Thanks for listening
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/6/2002 2:19:03 PM ET by Larry
Hi, Larry-
I appreciate your getting back to the subject at hand. After all, that's the meat of why we're here, right?
Anyway, for me, it's important for me to know more than one method to do layout. Keeps my bag of tricks improving and always getting fuller. For the time(s) I don't have a calc. with me or the batteries are dead, or whatever, I need to know another way to obtain the same results. Or, god forbid, I can't find a tape or rule, I have to come up with something else- in this case it might be dividers (I think you mistakenly called them calipers); or, it might be a piece of metal corner bead, using the perforations as a gauge. Or WHATEVER.
The point is that a good carpenter is creative, knowledgeable, and able to rise to the challenges presented to him/her every day. There is NEVER just one way to obtain the desired results.
Ken Hill
Hi! Ken,
"There is NEVER just one way to obtain the desired results."
I couldn't agree more with your post,only wish I would have written it.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
All,
With less than ten minutes of training. A typical carpenter with basic skills using a 6' holding rule should be able to layout any balcony area including curves within less than five minutes, with a degree of accuracy within 1/16". The key word here is typical and the carpenter having ability to read and use the rule.
My opinion of what a typical carpentry require skills should be
1.To know the danger in not allowing a elected saw motor to reach maximum rpm before making any cuts ( to know how properly use all his/ her tools) and to have the ability to know how this relate to safety issues
2. To have worked two years in construction industry with a miter and skill saw as a helper or apprentie supervise by a person that placed safety above all.
3. To know how to position your body and hands before making any cuts with a elected miter or skill saw and to have some experience with saw kickback
I would be more than happy if someone wanted to add more to the list.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/6/2002 5:20:31 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 5:21:47 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 5:25:10 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/6/2002 5:28:32 PM ET by Larry
First of all, Larry, an apprentice should have hand skill. Second they should keep their mouth shut and their ears open.
Qtrmeg,
Hopefully with out sounding arrogant., I couldn't agree more. funny things I've just receive another telephone call about doing a article on this subject, I'm trying to figure out whether or not to return it. Anyone has any ideas?
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Lighten up and share. That's a no-brainer.
If that is what you choose to do I hope you do it here, I don't mess around on any other sites.
"Lighten up and share"
The number one reason I'm back on this forum is to address a safety issue with supervision. If there is a forum that can helped me with that this is the one.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Trivia with a two part question.
Using a over the post rail system going up the a stair with a landing everything being equal only one is left the other right, which one is easier to do and why? Also is there a safety issue involved if so why?
Taught maybe this would be fun to think about while we're laying out.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/7/2002 5:31:46 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/7/2002 5:34:18 PM ET by Larry
I'll bite! - You're probably talking about interior handrails but the saftey rules apply to both indoor and outside. The outside rail is always easier for me. the inside rail will usualy die to the underside of the deck, or for and indoor application make a drastic one step transistion at the turn of the landing. The safety rule is that a hand rail must be placed on the inside rail so that it allows the user something to hang onto from the top to bottom of the stairs Not to exceed 2 1/2" on the grabrail and not less than 29" in height from the front of each tread to the top of the rail.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Hi! Bob,
"You're probably talking about interior handrails but the saftey rules apply to both indoor and outside."
Great safety tip , I never knew that about exterior railing,
I probably should have pointed out my trivia question was for interior handrail, now maybe we all can learn a little from each other
Better yet I have another idea, maybe we should think about giving points, what do you think?
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/7/2002 5:51:40 PM ET by Larry
Please take the time to read the foot note I've added at the bottom.
"My opinion of what a typical carpentry require skills should be
1.To know the danger in not allowing a elected saw motor to reach maximum rpm before making any cuts ( to know how properly use all his/ her tools) and to have the ability to know how this relate to safety issues
2. To have worked two years in construction industry with a miter and skill saw as a helper or apprentie supervise by a person that placed safety above all.
3. To know how to position your body and hands before making any cuts with a elected miter or skill saw and to have some experience with saw kickback"
Foot note:
Being able to read and writer is not a requirement, although it is helpful.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/7/2002 6:09:57 PM ET by Larry
Knowing most of the older carpenter's here already know the answers to my trivia question, for them who do not here it is.
The left hand stair is always easier to do, everything being equal as much 20 minutes in time. The reason is because the left hand rail parts can be cut much easier in the mitre box. This is where the safety issue comes into play. Right hand parts will not fit easily into the box properly creating a much more dangerous situation for someone without experience in saw kickback.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 6:25:17 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 6:27:11 AM ET by Larry
Let me also say there's several different methods of cutting easing and these are in no particular order.
Cradle
Flat surface against the fence.
etc.
Foot note:
There is a manufacturer with a drawing showing a pitchblock being used for a wedge at the miter saw. In all the illustration I've ever seems in the public domain this by far is the most dangerous one. The problem here is someone who can not read and write can get the impression this is the way a professional expert might do this operation, not realizing the danger.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
To all the people in management positions
About a year ago I was contacted by one of the large stair manufacturer in my area to do some training . I was led to believe a young person I started with had the basic skills necessary because of having four years of experience. Two of which was a in college being trained for cabinet making, the other was with a experience person working on the job in the field as a helper installing handrail. If anyone wants to know the point I'm trying to make the qualifications I listed earlier was something written right after my experience. My questions to anyone is how is it possible that someone after four years of that kind of experience working with others and tools lack these basic skills?
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 7:45:57 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 8:59:29 AM ET by Larry
"To all the people in management positions
About a year ago I was contacted by one of the large stair manufacturer in my area to do some training . I was led to believe a young person I started with had the basic skills necessary because of having four years of experience. Two of which was a in college being trained for cabinet making, the other was with a experience person working on the job in the field as a helper installing handrail. If anyone wants to know the point I'm trying to make the qualifications I listed earlier was something written right after my experience. My questions to anyone is how is it possible that someone after four years of that kind of experience working with others and tools lack these basic skills?" Well let me give you my opinion. Some of you guy's are so focused on perfection and money your overlooking the real problem. Frankly after what I've personally witnessed while working in the field over the last fourteen years with my tools, some of boy's in the industry are not fit to supervise animals let alone people.
You'll had to forgive me but I needed to get that off my chest.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 9:14:30 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 9:50:46 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 9:54:39 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 12:00:04 PM ET by Larry
Has anyone who taking the time to read my post ever heard the term, store bought carpenter? Anyone working in management, supervision etc. does not know what this mean please ask. This is probably one of the most dangerous things happening today and no one known what to look for. Well let me give you one example, anyone you see on your job site that their level of experience might be questions and their tools are all new. this should but up a red flag to everyone.
During the sixty and after this was common term that was widely used by management, supervision on a job site. Anyone seen with a new tool someone should always but into question this person capabilitys. This does not mean qualified carpenters will not be purchasing new tools etc. This only mean someone on the job site should always be on the lookout.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 1:22:49 PM ET by Larry
Larry, how much responsibilty do you have in using a tool that creates a safety risk?
A lot, that's my problem!
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 11:50:04 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 11:50:46 AM ET by Larry
Please do not oppose questions to me under this discussion, I'm trying to address on another one.
"2. To have worked two years in construction industry with a miter and skill saw as a helper or apprentie supervise by a person that placed safety above all."(This needs to be verified)
Thanks
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 11:54:03 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 12:04:31 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 12:05:22 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 12:17:44 PM ET by Larry
Two part trivia question
Does anyone know who of number one supplier of specialty tools for handrail installation is? If so can you name the most extensive tool they sell?
This is all tools under $600
The answer is not AccuTools
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
A Tribute To Mr Brian Challis
1/26/02 9:19 p.m.
Mr Brian Challis holds three patents that all have something to do with handrail installation. Although I've personal never used any of his invention.He had spend a tremendous amount of time and money trying to improve the way we all do thing today in the home building industry.As a inventor, I believe he should be recognized for his effort.
PAT. NO. Title
1. 4,940,063 Angular displacement measuring apparatus
2. 4,883,383 Component fastening system
3. 4,865,496 Boring jig apparatus
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 2:40:46 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 2:42:04 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 2:43:42 PM ET by Larry
Larry: I dont know what this has to do with baluster layout..but anyway....... I never went to college...but have never been intimidated one bit by someone who has. You cannot be taught common sense. ....... Either you have it..or you dont. I will make an exception by saying that through accidents and close calls..and enough of them...some of even the dim witted ones will start learning some common sense.
So to answer your question about someone with college not knowing how to do something safe...doesnt surprise me at all. Likewise..if they are working with someone who doesnt practice safe procedures..they wont learn much there either. I used to work with a guy that always took his saw guard off his miter box....been doing it all his life..has all his fingers...but it gave me the willies.
Now about baluster layout...what ever floats your boat is fine with me. I have used dividers...guess and by golly...and always came up with equal spaced balusters.....but for me..a cheap solar powered calculator from Wal-mart for ten bucks is all I need. I measure center of newel to one half baluster thickness past the dryall....divide that up to get my desired spacing...store this number.....hit 0 on my calculator..subtract one half the newel thickness..and start adding in the stored spacing. This goves the centerline measure for each baluster from the face of the newel.....can lay one out as fast as I can measure...just minutes for a whole run.
who is the bigger fool ?
the fool, or the one that argues with the fool?
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Are you saying "you pity the fool?"...
now to keep things on track, I went to a gourd festival this weekend, you should have seen the little tiny jigsaws, die grinder thingys that were tiers above a dremel, pyrographic tools that put my magnifying glass and sunlight to shame...man, some of those decorated punkins were going for 1200 bucks...talk about out of your gourd! No Senclamps, though...bringing it all back home...
That would be me.
Hi!,Stan
"Now about baluster layout...what ever floats your boat is fine with me. I have used dividers...guess and by golly...and always came up with equal spaced balusters.....but for me..a cheap solar powered calculator from Wal-mart for ten bucks is all I need. I measure center of newel to one half baluster thickness past the dryall....divide that up to get my desired spacing...store this number.....hit 0 on my calculator..subtract one half the newel thickness..and start adding in the stored spacing. This goves the centerline measure for each baluster from the face of the newel.....can lay one out as fast as I can measure...just minutes for a whole run."
Never went to college either, but I would like to address this if you wouldn't mine. In the eastern part of the country, my area anyway. Most handrail installation is performed by either a person who especially in this area or a carpenter trim contractor. Please let me say that for the last eight months I've been doing a survey with carpenter's etc. I come in contact with daily. This question about using a calculator always come up. I can honestly say I've yet to meet a carpenter or otherwise working in the field using calculator. This does not mean stair builder's like yourself might not have a good reason for using one.
Let me expand a little more about how many different carpenter's come in contact with weekly. Normally weekly I possibly could have worked in three or four different states. If anyone questions that look at my geographical area I'm in Md. Also I personally know of more than 20 installer's that specialize in this area. To my knowledge none of them use a calculator.
Do you know the answer to my trivia question?
with respect
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 9:11:34 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 9:15:06 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 9:33:50 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/8/2002 9:35:38 PM ET by Larry
Every carpenter I know uses a calculator, if not for working, it's at least for working up a bill...they don't necessarily use them for everything, or a be all end all answer, but they use them, and Larry, your credibility just keeps on slipping, and the weird thing is, I wanna give you the benefit of the doubt, but you just keep making that doubt bigger...
Larry: The trivia question about which railing can be done quicker..left or right?
I can do either in the same amount of time with my DeWalt 708 miter box
Qtmeg
You are on my ignore list now among others for inane drivel and abuse. Goodbye!We may be slow, But we're expensive.
Qtmeg
You are on my ignore list now among others for inane drivel and abuse. Goodbye!
We may be slow, But we're expensive.
Dangit Qtrmeg, how come you always get onto the good lists first ?
Cut me some slack here
Quittin' Time
That was two this week Luka, it is just too easy...
Installing curve handrail
Larry Martin 3/18/02 5:19 p.m.
On the another finish carpenter forum there was a discussion about a climbing volute, or helical easing. So I thought maybe this would be good time to describe another technique for installing curve railing and see how it might compared to other installers.
1. Establish the center line on each tread, typically 1"1/2" and check the curve rail with the stair.
2. Establish the starting newel height, typically 40"1/2 to 41" for a curve stair
3. Establish where the starting newel will set, normally a typical voloute will have a 4" 3/4" off set. If I'm using a typical easing with the voloute, then I make the off set 5" 1/4" this helps compensate for not using climbing volute, or helical easing with the mathematics that's taken place at this point in the rail system. Then I set this newel.
4. Attach the voloute to the curve rail
5. Using 1"x6"x 4'dead man, place it over the center line vertically in the middle and top treads, braced back to the stair. Next using a framing square with the 16" portion alone the rake, mark the 24" portion on each dead man, this is where the bottom of the rail will set while installing. This is normally very close to a 34"code,I always cut it about a 1/2" less. Next place a plum mark at the top for a a 4" screw to help ajust the height if needed. Also I place two screws on each side of the center line the width of the rail, this helps hold it in place.
I always remove the dead mans last, after all but two balusters are installed.
6. Lay the curve rail on the newel and dead mans. Always with a plum bob, I check to see how it relates over the center line making any adjustments if needed.
There is a few more steps, but I thought maybe this would give the general idea.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Re: Bench For Hanging Doors
Larry Martin 2/23/02 6:26 p.m.
Tricks of the trade up my sleeve.If I was working in all areas of carpentry, like remodeling or new home building today. I would like to describe the work bench I would make. It would be very similar to the one I described earlier with a few changes.. It also would take about a day to make and would last a life time. Several times over the years I've made specially benches that in my opinion are priceless. Normally you can leave them on the job site without worrying about someone stealing it.
First because hanging doors is something that's not done very often today, I would make this part of the sliding 2xs a removable accessory. That could be attached if needed and left at home or in your truck. There would be a recessed slot in the center for a DeWalt 12 miter saw or your favorite one. The legs would be folding attached to the frame with piano hinges. On one side of the slot in the center of this area, I would make a slot for a saw blade to come through it from the bottom of the bench. So a skill saw could be place up side down and secure in this area to serve as a table saw. A fence could be created simply by tacking a 1x along a straight line with the blade of the top surface. Also on the other end I would make a slot for a router. A very nice finishing touch is to paint it yellow.
Larry
Re: Bench For Hanging Doors
Larry Martin 2/24/02 6:19 p.m.
Something all of you might find interesting is that normally the carpenter that set the door jams, was not the same person who hung the doors. One trim carpenter would set jams,flint blocks, door casings and baseboard. Another carpenter would do nothing but trim out windows.An apprentice would always start by trimming in the closet first. And only was allow to use power tools with supervision or until he had proven himself. The carpenter who hung the doors normally did all the making of book shelves,cabinets,stairs and handrails. Normally at first, after the apprentice was finished trimming the closet then he would work with this person as a helper or apprentice .
One thing I always found interesting was that probably 80 percent or more of the carpenters that I worked around wanted nothing to do with hanging doors, cabinet and stair work etc.. I my opinion this is one of the reason why this is the highest paying area in carpentry today. Also I believe there were several of the reasons for this. One, there was always something else to do that a typical carpenter with mediocre skills making normal wages could do. Two, because of the expense in making a mistake. This was true even in framing also, there was a large percentage of carpenters who would have nothing to do with layout of walls, roofs etc, and didn't want to learn. I've known of a lot of carpenters who worked their whole life just swinging a hammer in this trade and never did any of the above. In those days because it would take a month or two for trim . By the time the carpenters setting jams, windows and baseboard were finished the next house was ready to start trim, or they would go back outside and do exterior finish work. In the winter if you were apprentice and very very lucky you wouldn't has to go along outside..
Most of builders I worked for in 60s /70s only had one person that some would consider or call a master carpenter. And he was always the highest paid person on the job, other than supervision. I was very fortune to have worked with such a person by the name of Pete Miller, in the early 70s on almost a daily basis for over four years. He taught me more carpentry techniques and tricks then any other one person I ever worked with. It would be very easy to take all the credit in the techniques I'm mentioning were my own, but that's not the case.Pete has long since past away, but for some reason I think about my days working with him more then ever. The basic fundamental behind both of the tools I invented were originally taught to me by this man.Although because technology we have changed the way we do things. In my opinion some of the tricks and techniques that was not written down so other people could take advantage that still can be applied today, is a true loss for everyone
Re: Bench For Hanging Doors
Larry Martin 3/2/02 7:00 p.m.
Here's something that all of you might want to think about the nexted time your working on a project with a plastered house. And you see a lot of doors,windows and base board trim that the joints do not fit well.
The first builder I ever worked for was originally a plaster contractor. The first 20 or so houses that I helped build were plaster, and I worked as a tender at first. One thing that always amazed me was the amount of water that would go into the house during this process. We always left the house dry out with the windows open for several weeks before trim. Even then this would cause a problem with the amount of moisture still left in the walls and ceiling. I'm sure there was contractors who probably did not wait long enough to allow the house to dry properly.
Something else we always set the door jams first before we plaster. The door jams serve as a gage for the amount of plaster to be place on the wall. So these jams were objective to a tremendous amount of condonsation and dampnest during this process.And this also one more reason why the carpenter that set the jams was not always the same person who set doors.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
For Supervision Only
Store Bought Tirm Carpenter's
Larry Martin 11/26/01 6:18 p.m.
The other day a young carpenter about twenty named Mike stoped by the job site looking for a job . The very first thing I notices was that all his tools were brand new and had never been use. Another thing I noticed was that they were all top quality tools with all will known name brand except one.He even had Lufkin 6' red end extension Rule and a per of white carpenter coveralls that his mother had embroidered the name" ACE CARPENTER MIKE". I'd like to take a minute and tell you about one of the tools he had with him that he purchased at a yard sell for 50 cent. It was a very old 13 oz. blue grass hammer that when I was a young men cost about $18.00. With a special looking head and a handle that fit your hand like a glove.We used to sit at lunch with a piece of broken glass and shave the middle of the handle until it felt perfect, with the expect amount of spring to it. It also had marking at the end of handle so that when your hand was sweatey the hammer would not slit out of it. Their was a I/2 hole in the back of the handle for wax to use with screws and nail.
My question to all is should I give him a job and if not why?
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/13/2002 4:52:13 PM ET by Larry
Alright....Mike probably should be awarded the trivia question win. the actual answer is hold your hand up flat (like a karati chop) with you thumb touching your nose......this will stop the irate customer from injuring your eyes unless he happens to be a basketball player, if this is the case use both hands. :) stay safe!
c'mon allen... any fan of larry , moe & curly knows that....
3-Stooges 101...
nyuck, nyuck, nycukMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, To a true fan of real entertainment this ones for you.....
Edited 9/14/2002 3:27:29 PM ET by ALLENSCHELL
Edited 9/14/2002 3:30:56 PM ET by ALLENSCHELL
Thanks allen.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Larry,
Don't give him a job. He will have to sit at your feet for two years while you teach him to bring a saw motor to full speed. He will have to listen to your insane storys and answer triva about rail installation tools. The poor guy would be better off working at Burger King sweeping the floor.
you know that "ace carpenter" story changes each time he returns to this forum after about a 4 month hiatus after the last ruckus he starts. Next story is he will be approaching you about working for him.
sometimes i say to myself, Thank God for One story homes..........no stairs, no balusters which means.......
Larry....I am just curious.....on all the curved handrails you have installed...what is the worst rail you have had to align with the desired centerline on the tread...in other words..how far off was the curvature of the rail compared to the what is should have been?
Stan,
The hardest rail by far is something that start's out in a curve and end up going straight, with square top baluster's that feelit is used in the system. Hope I spelled feetit right, this is a area of the rail that needs to be filled after the rail is install using square top baluster's. It's not something you'll see very often in typical rail work but it does exist.If I had not answer your question please present it again.
Also I was thinking about using what I believe is the stair shop you run in comparison to typical rail work. If you have any problem with that idea please let me know.My intention are in no way met to point out anything I might disagree with what your level of quality is, only to point out some people are willing to pay for it. That being the case it would be good to understand what some of the differences are. For example the way you attach rail together.
Please let me know if I'm going in a wrong direction with you .
with respect
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Larry: You can compare my ways to yours or anyone elses...doesnt matter to me. We are all playing to different clients. I am totally custom..and I feel I should use the strongest methods reasonable in attaching all my parts together. I always use railbolts...and many times dowels across the joints. I have done square topped balusters in curved rail..and have to custom cut the curved fillet. Ken Drake, myself. and a few others had a real lengthy run of posts on figuring the radius to cut these curved fillets to. Obviously a level rail would have fillets cut whose centerline radius equals the centerline of the railing. As the rail becomes more inclined..then this radius increases to match the radius of the rail.
Larry: I was asking what was the worst railing as far as not matching the curvature of the stairway. Years ago..before I knew better...I had glued up a rail not allowing for springback..and the centerline of this rail was almost one inch off the desired path on the stairway. I just was curious how bad of one you had ever come across.
Edited 9/13/2002 11:12:30 PM ET by Stan Foster
Stan,
I would like to think about your question over night if you do not mine.
Others
There is a key word in rail work that everyone needs to understand its called typical. Probably somewhere around 90 percent of all rail work being performed today is typical, meaning using 6010 rail with a 1 1/2" center line. The real problem for most installer's is knowing what to do when we get away from this word. Hopefully as this discussion move forward we'll all be able to have a better understanding of the word typical /others and how to apply in the real paying world.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/13/2002 11:17:35 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/13/2002 11:19:50 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/13/2002 11:23:16 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/13/2002 11:24:48 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/13/2002 11:26:34 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/13/2002 11:28:14 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/13/2002 11:30:19 PM ET by Larry
Larry you really know how to take the ballast out of ballaster.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Sure can, been thinking about trying to but a patent on it. I've even was thinking about having my good piffin come on this forum and market it under another name.
Anyone have any good idea what to call it, I was thinking about Mighty Mouse.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
maybe Mickey__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Mickey
You just made me think of the old band member of the monkey's.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Being in on the start of this discussion I had grown frustrated and tired of
it a long time ago (can anyone really blame me?) and decided to walk away from
it. But hey folks, it may be that we can forget Larry's method altogether and
maybe forget about Clampman's Calculator Method and my advice regarding a Construction
Master Pro too.
I was surfing the JLC-Finish
Carpentry Forum this evening and in a discussion entitled "Palm appl.
Baluster Layout update" I picked up a line on what may potentially
be a far superior method. This guy over there Gary Weise posted a link
to a BalusterLayout program he created that runs on Palm handhelds. I just downloaded
it and was impressed with what I saw. I'll be giving it a real world test next
week so I can compare it with the other methods. I've got a TimeCard reporting
program I created for the Palm so I can actually time the different layout methods
during the project and get some empirical real world data. Although the statistical
sample of the project I'll be doing isn't going to be large enough to settle
the argument once and for all it will certainly be a start.
Just playing around with it this evening I'm thinking I like it. Now I (we)
just need Palm applications for all the other Stair planning functions and I
can maybe take the Construction
Master Pro out of the belt case it sits in with my Palm
The link to gary Weise's BalusterLayout
1.0.2 program on the PalmGear.com web site
View Image
Edited 9/18/2002 1:19:03 AM ET by Jerrald Hayes
jerrald, can this be used on a computer? __________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin as far as I know the answer would be no. Unless, there is a piece of software that allows you to "emulate" the Palm OS and run Palm Application on a PC or Mac. I know they exist for programming purposes but I certainly haven't heard of them being in general desktop use but it certainly wouldn't be hard to write a desktop application using anyone of a bazillion programming tools and languages that does what Gary's Palm Application does.
I think the real value of an application like his is in the shop or on the installation venue in thae hands of the installing artisan where the real nitty-gritty of layout takes place. A plan drawn on a desktop computer that shows a balustrade run of 4’-6” (or 54”) in the field might end up really being something lile 51-1/8” or 57-3/4” so that where I think it would really come in handy.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Sorry to waste your time, do we owe you anything for that?
Stop bitching and re-read this thread, it's all there.
John, Jay Carroll? I don;t know who he is either. I swear I knew your name
was John and I don't know how that happened. As I've already mentioned last
night was my first night using DreamweaverMX and that might have happened by
running the spell checker and just slipped by me as I proof read. You should
see what it does to my name (and what everybody else does to my name too). I
should be thanking you for getting my name right though. With regard to the
Mr. Carroll thing I was being sort of facetious with referring to you that way
just to make a point about what I thought was getting ridicoulous regarding
referencing people (you and your book in this case) without notifying you or
asking your permission. Cetainly no offense intended towards you at all.
Besides I really do like your book. As policy I don't give out Christmas bonuses
but instead tie bonuses to performance standards and hitting target goals but
I do give out Christmas presents and I've distributed several copies of your
book that way. It's a great teaching tool.
Your point "First, there is no single right way
to lay out most things. Individuals have different visualization and mathematical skills,
different tools, different temperaments." is exactly my point too.
The one thing I am very certain of is that that there is certainly no one right
way. I once worked with a carpenter who could do square roots in his head. Just
because he had a built in calculator should I have told him to stop doing that
and to layout the rafters by stepping them of with a framing square? I don't
think so. First time he ever did one of those square roots in his head and then
asked me for confirmation I hurt myself laughing I was so stunned. I just couldn't
believe it when I pulled out my calculator and checked his work. I felt like
an idiot but it was a great time working with him.
Interesting that you mention metric too. My background and history in theatrical
scenery has eventually translated into trade show and exhibit building and at
least in the exhibit work that I've been involved with so far 95% of it is metric.
Some of the off-shore theatre stuff I've seen is metric too. I actually keep
a whole special tool box of metric tools for when I make the switches back and
forth. That's also why I like the Construction
Master Pro too in that it makes imperial to metric switches convenient and
easy for those times when I don't have my metric measures with me which reminds
me that a lot of the imported ironwork we work with is metric too.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jerrald,
Of course I didn't take offense. Thanks for buying copies of my book for your employees. If you ever do so again, feel free to send them to me and I'll be happy to sign them. You can get in touch with me via the email address in my profile.
Your account of your employee who could do square roots in his head is amazing. I remember doing square roots with pencil and paper. It is a long, counterintuitive process that I've never been able to remember. I still have a booklet that I got in the mid-seventies that explains the process. I remember being extremely pleased to see calculators with square root functions and about 1978 I gladly forked over $30 for one. Now, they're less than $5 and sometimes free! --JC
"There is also a graphical quick no-math way of laying out straight-run baluster spacing that I'll look for an explanation of somewhere."
I doubt this is the one you are thinking of, but it popped into my mind. Boy, it would be better with a drawing, ok, time to whip out the crayon cad.
Make a mark 1/2 the baluster width past the edge of the newel, from the railing side. Let's say you want a 5" spacing, angle your tape until a multiple of 5" lines up with the second mark. Square the multiples of 5" back to the rail line. Works fine.
Jerrald, you didn't mean the method where you space the balusters with a 2x4, did you? ;-)
Edited 9/3/2002 9:04:00 PM ET by Qtrmeg
Qtrmeg that is the quick no-math way I was thinking of! Thanks
for saving me on that this evening. I gave a quick cursory look through a few
of my books since I know I've seen a good drawing and explanation of the technique
somewhere but I didn't find it (...yet). Thanks again. See I'm not exclusively
pro-calculator!
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
No problem, I know almost nothing, so I can put my finger on what I do know in seconds.
Oh please, someone send that to Boss, that has tagline written all over it.
Woodie, If you're doing a horizontal run of rail the easiest way I've found is to:
1. measure the length of your run.
2. add the thickness of one baluster to length of run.
3. divide (the number in step 2) by 4" + the thickness of one balluster. (4" is the maximum space allowed in most codes now)
4. round this number UP to the next number (21.12 rounds to 22)
5. divide measurement of total run + one balluster (step 2 above) by the number you got in step 4. Now, you have your balluster space plus one balluster or the measurement from center to center of your ballusters. Subtract the thickness of one balluster and you have the measurement of the space between ballusters.
Hope this helps, Steve
To all
After having the opportunity to read Jerry last post over several times, I've believe there is a big missunderstanding. If anyone care to go back and look at my original posting here, I believe you'll see I just posted my method without trying to force it on anyone. Next thing that happen someone suggest to me about using a calculator. I believe if you look I only gave my reasons why a calculator was not for me. Truly I have no problem believeing someone method could be better than mine. Sense I've been all these forum in discussion almost everyone has tried to force the calculator down on me. Years ago I was taught the old conventional methods of carpentry. Just like any of you, until someone are yourself figures out a better way your going to stick with what you know. I'm no different.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Edited 9/3/2002 8:35:19 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/3/2002 8:36:33 PM ET by Larry
When it comes to stair layout, balustrade installations (as well as complex roof layout) I use the metric system and a calculator. Millimeters feed into your calculator easier than converting inches and fractions to decimals then back again, a little less room for error.
I don't understand, Larry.
This means what?
Piffin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
My point being that just placing a patent number after my name doesn't add to my credibility.
Thanks for the invite. Is his surname Orlo or Martin? I got confused by an e-mail you once sent me about this name business.Excellence is its own reward!
"My point being that just placing a patent number after my name doesn't add to my credibility." With that number anyone could with public documentation verify or validate a variety number of things or information right off this computer about a person is who he/ she claims to be. Earlier I mentioned about being taught the old conventional methods, these have all been proven to work. For someone to change my mine or thinking about a different approach they'll need to provide enough information to prove without a shadow of dealt the information they are trying to sell me is accurate. If this does not answer your question please put it in another way. let me give you another example you've just in your last probably provide me with enough information to verify a few things, likewise. Another example. The reason I know longer question Jerry credibility is because he display a address on his web site, this tell me he has nothing to hide.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Edited 9/4/2002 1:55:30 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 1:56:39 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 1:58:11 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 2:02:40 PM ET by Larry
http://www.accutools.net/0c620180.jpg
OK, so by doing a google search,I find this evidence that a patent has been issued to Larry Martin. Good for you!
I guess that I'm the sort of person who measures what a person says by ring of truth, instinct, attitude, etc as much as past accomplishments. The patent adds to credibility somewhat, but what carries more weight is when you say rational things that my experience says are right.
BTW, I use a tape for layout and thought it was such a simple Q that at first, I didn't even reply. Then everybody chimed in and I learned from the discussion. I use calculators for some things too - more like Jerry - using the tool I'm comfortable with for the job at hand and not knocking another meethod.Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
"- using the tool I'm comfortable with for the job at hand and not knocking another meethod." please show me anyway here are on any forum where I've knock someone method other than taking a strong stand about calculator's. I can think of one area in railing were it might come in and handy, however typically in this area there's a lot done.
Now I have a question for you. Do you believe everything that is posed on these forums is credible or do you always swallow everything hook, line and chinker?
Better yet I have a challenge for you. Pick someone on this forum or another that is put is the position of being a expert in a certain area. Now see by using your computer if you can find their home address
If this person cannot provide you with a home addressed, he/ she is probably willing or otherwise a part of a scam.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Edited 9/4/2002 2:40:22 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 2:45:17 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 2:46:45 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 3:02:12 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 4:30:57 PM ET by Larry
Well, you just slapped me in the face with a sloppy rag!
I've got dang good reasons for not exposing my self or my e-mail box to the kind of crap that some of these flaming threads can generate. I don't know everyone who comes around this place so I don't intend to make my personal info immediately available. Some of these guys know who I am - when I develope enough trust to trade info with them.
By and large the sort of folks attracted to such a fine place as this are fine folks. But it is wise to be careful in this world.
BTW, I think that I'm probably smart enough to weed out bad advice on my own without having to look up someones home adress or let you tell me whether it's good advice or not.Excellence is its own reward!
"please show me anyway here are on any forum where I've knock someone method other than taking a strong stand about calculator's."
I won't bother. If you think that you've never put anybody down, I won't offer you the opportunity to start...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 9/4/2002 9:36:25 PM ET by piffin
"I won't both. If you think that you've never put anybody down, I won't offer you the opportunity to start... " If I've but anyone down it only happen after being constantly slammed or my credibility was but in question. I have no problem at all in posting my home address because there's nothing to fear only someone else stupidity.
I'm glad this conversation has taken place because after observing some of the slamming that's been going on here and elsewhere oven the last several month, if there's ever been a victim of stupidity,your our guy.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Inventor -US PATENT 5809659
Edited 9/4/2002 8:19:08 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 8:51:46 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 8:52:29 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/4/2002 8:57:20 PM ET by Larry
Do tell!
;o)Excellence is its own reward!
Larry, you've got to be kidding. You're not going to start up with this bs again are you?__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin is the glass city home of the Sabres?
Paul, I've got a Le sabre in the driveway, but no, not to my knowledge is there a team by that name. Mudhens yes, sabres no.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Larry give it a rest. Please do yourself a favor and back down gracefully.
I don't like the math way- I'm an artist. (14) I cut a 4" 2x4 block (15) I double staple the bottom row and top and bottom of each end of the grille. (16) I lift it into place (17)center (19) fasten (21) plumb and tack (23) done
If the layout falls short @ 4" back up for or five pickets turn the block to 3 1/2" and it will usually turn out fine.
It is hard to see the 1/2" difference in baluster spacing and if you plumb each one you compensate for posts that might be out of plumb.
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Edited 9/5/2002 8:27:06 PM ET by Pro-Dek
Thanks Bob!
If a picture paints a thousand words, you've just saved us reading a long essay!Excellence is its own reward!
Larry,
So Bucksnort Billy spammed you, asking you to leave (How could you Bucksnort). My question to you is what was he trying to sell you? OR was he trying to get you to leave so he could sell us something without you interferring. Come clean Bucksnort I think Larry is onto something here.
Larry have you sent a letter to your past customers letting them know about your concerns with the rail systems you have installed ? It could prevent further problems down the road.
I don't know why you have to pick a fight everytime you come here, but you do everytime.
I suggested you start a thread in constuction techniques if you wanted to share what you know, but you just babble on with all of this grief.
In my mind this thread had only one answer, and it has been answered in several different ways. Now you want some trivia about if we know how to run a saw? Please, who do you think you are playing with, monkeys? I'll put my stairs against anything you bang out, all day long. You want to know the awful truth? I am far from the best stair guy on this site.
You need to get your head around the fact that running rail is busy work. If you want to get into the day to day of it then tell us that, but your drama is painful.
You have a lot to share Larry, but spit it out because I ain't buying your book.
"You have a lot to share Larry, but spit it out because I ain't buying your book." Think of what you'll miss, hell I'll just send you one free.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/8/2002 11:17:18 PM ET by Larry
Not only do I use a calculator for spindle layouts,I have a digital readout on my thickness plane AND,
SHAME ON ME, i USE ####DIAL INDICATOR WHEN i SWITCH BLADES ON MY CHOP SAW.
Clampman
But that doesn't count if you don't know the trivia answer.Excellence is its own reward!
"Two part trivia question
Does anyone know who of number one supplier of specialty tools for handrail installation is? If so can you name the most extensive tool they sell?
This is all tools under $600"
Knowing most of you old time rail installer already knew this answer, I'll go head and give it to everyone else
The answer is LJSmith and the tool is the one Mr Brian Challis invented that this manufacturer now has all the rights to.
3. 4,865,496 Boring jig apparatus
Footnote:
I have found that most tools that are inventive by people working directly with or out of stair shop,are much more perfection oriented. I've also found that installer that's background is something other than carpentry normally achieved a much higher degree of perfection. Let me go on to say that the reason I me believe this is because I've notice that they all lack basic carpentry skills needed. For example very few installer that come out of a stair shop will ever use a skill saw etc. In installation this is a very important tool because of several different places that possibly would need cutting, this is not to say other tools might not be available, only unnecessary if you have basic carpentry skills. I could go on and on and on.
management
Someone looking to employ a installer researching their background will tell you what kind of perfection you'll receive. Please keep in mine this alone will probably determine if you make any money or not.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Edited 9/9/2002 5:32:06 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:35:37 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:37:16 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:39:23 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:41:41 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:44:42 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:46:02 AM ET by Larry
Two part trivia question
Does anyone know who wrote a article about what percentage of carpenter's install over the post rail? Name the author and percentage.
I've offer to send someone a rough draft of my book and AccuSquare if you can answer this question free of charge, but this might be in violation of a rule.
footnote: The answer to this question can be found by doing a little research with your computer.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Safety rule
This discussion was oven by someone asking how others did something. Next thing that happen tools were shown without any proper instructions on there uses or application. I've notice on this forum and especially others this is a common practice, always trying to get the cart a head of the horse.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month, slam - slamming -scammers -spamming etc.. These are all terms that are widely used and practiced by some unethical people in the marketing business, so the only thing I can say is buyer's beware
Larry Martin
Larry,
Here's a trivia question for you.
What is it?
Clue: It's inside a house.
Here's a clue. Not for rookie carpentry's
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month For all the you guys who need to buy a calculator please do,because your only going to hurt yourself playing with a rule!
Edited 9/9/2002 1:43:08 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 1:48:59 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 8:32:50 PM ET by Larry
While we are all laying out waiting for someone else to posted another idea about baluster layout, I've like to discussed with all do respect to Mr Challis a particular tool he invented the"4,865,496 Boring jig apparatus" .I'd also like to know if anyone in this discussion has ever used one?
Years ago when I was trying to bring the level" AccuMark" to market we had a general conversation about his experience's dealing with a particular corporation. One of the reasons my tool "accumark" is on the market today is because he verify a few things for me.Let me go on to say out of respect for him there will be no slamming by me, however I would like to point out the pros and cons of this tool
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month For all the you guys who need to buy a calculator please do,because your only going to hurt yourself playing with a rule!
Larry Martin
Edited 9/9/2002 3:45:57 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 3:46:59 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 3:49:50 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 8:33:42 PM ET by Larry
I don't think a boring jig would help me a bit, in fact by the time you clamp that thing on I'd be halfway up the rail. My high tech method is this....a razor sharp spade bit filed 1/32" over size, stick sharp point on layout mark, eyeball the shaft with something plumb (wall corner, door casing or whatever) squeeze trigger and fill my eyes up with shavings.
Edited 9/9/2002 3:58:27 PM ET by ALLENSCHELL
"I don't think a boring jig would help me a bit, in fact by the time you clamp that thing on I'd be halfway up the rail. My high tech method is this....a razor sharp spade bit filed 1/32" over size, stick sharp point on layout mark, eyeball the shaft with something plumb (wall corner, door casing or whatever) sqeeze trigger and fill my eyes up with shavings" I could not have said it better.
To Management
To my knowledge there is about thirteen hundred sold a year, at a asking price of over $400. Just think of all the calculator's we could buy with that money.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month For all the you guys who need to buy a calculator please do,because your only going to hurt yourself playing with a rule!
Larry Martin
Edited 9/9/2002 4:05:49 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 4:09:11 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 4:11:28 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 8:34:44 PM ET by Larry
Let me give you my opinion of the"4,865,496 Boring jig apparatus. If your looking for a very very high level of perfection then this tool is for you. However other then the one reason just pointed out, there is a possibility of it being used similar to a set of training wheel's. If there ever was something invented for perfection in railing work, this is it.
To understand what's happening here with tools, you'd needed to have worked in the field through out the sixty. Virtually no one in the eastern part of the country today is building stair on the job , however there is a few exception. I can honestly say I've never built a set of high level interior stair's because it was not necessary . However very early into my construction experience's I've seen quite a few qualified carpenter's doing it a lot. Just to give you another idea of my experience, I once was working with a master carpenter who dove tailed baluster's in the thread just to show me how it was done.
My point in all of this is unlike years ago there is a difference between a stair builder of today, working in a shop that would have the all necessary tools avail to reach a higher level of perfection.Than anyone working in the field like a rail installer. In my opinion anyone working in a shop under a controlled environment with supervision is a craftsmen not a carpenter. The key word in this paragraph is supervision.
This tool was invented by a craftsmen .
Hope I didn't get off track
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month For all the you guys who need to buy a calculator please do,because your only going to hurt yourself playing with a rule!
Larry Martin
Edited 9/9/2002 5:01:57 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:03:12 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:04:55 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:08:49 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 5:10:32 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 6:06:58 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 6:17:00 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 8:35:44 PM ET by Larry
Larry: Here is an idea I came up with to accurately guide your drill vertically while drilling baluster holes. It works superb. It is nothing more than a 10 dollar laser pointer mounted into a drilled out bubble level on a DeWalt drill. I love this little tool.
Larry....you know all the ins and outs of getting a patent...take this idea and I hope you make a million bucks.
Hi ! Stan,
You've shown this to me before, actually I've taught about trying it. However because you have made it public knowledge or but it in the domain, it no longer qualified for a patent.
Great idea thanks for sharing it.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month For all the you guys who need to buy a calculator please do,because your only going to hurt yourself playing with a rule!
Larry Martin
Edited 9/9/2002 6:23:52 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 8:36:41 PM ET by Larry
Stan I made a jig like that after seeing yours. Works very well but would hate to be the poor fool that focuses to much on the dot on the floor and goes through the rail!! (good thing it was a short run..I use a stop now)
"Two part trivia question
Does anyone know who wrote a article about what percentage of carpenter's install over the post rail? Name the author and percentage.
Answers
Article
Staircases & Handrails - Not For The Rookie Carpenter
Author: Tim Cater -1995
Percentage of carpenter's according to this article, less than one percent.
http://www.askbuild.com/cgi-bin/column?087
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month For all the you guys who need to buy a calculator please do,because your only going to hurt yourself playing with a rule!
Larry Martin
Edited 9/9/2002 8:19:46 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 8:20:46 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/9/2002 8:31:32 PM ET by Larry
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month: think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/9/2002 9:10:03 PM ET by Larry
Let me give you my opinion of the"4,865,496 Boring jig apparatus. If your looking for a very very high level of perfection then this tool is for you.
Larry, I'm not trying to be a wise guy in any way but how could a hole drilled through a jig be more perfect than a hole drilled freehand?
"Larry, I'm not trying to be a wise guy in any way but how could a hole drilled through a jig be more perfect than a hole drilled freehand?" This is something I've been trying to figure out for years, maybe someone else can?
Sorry I could not answer your question
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/10/2002 7:04:03 PM ET by Larry
Allen, I'm not trying to be a wise guy either, but, if repeticious things done freehand were so perfect, why would we make jigs at all...more to the point, not everyone of the baluster holes I used to drill in the rails were dead nuts perfect, and sometimes I had quite the time getting the rail to seat right...so, now I make jigs, and have eliminated that stress from my life...
gettin' jiggy with it, BB
I'd like to talk about another railing tool, the Telescoping Baluster Marking Tool and it also carries a U.S. Patent. The gentlemen name that invented this tool is Mr Dan Moore vice president of sales and marketing for LJ Smith and just for the record I know him very well.
Does anyone in this discussion ever use this tool?
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/11/2002 6:16:17 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 6:17:04 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 6:18:19 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 6:20:04 AM ET by Larry
A few techniques and tricks for skilled trademen& supervision
1. When using a framing square for layout of 16"o.c. or 24"o.c. As you slide the square along the marks it will slowly gain do to the thickness of the pencil line.This can be compensated for by slightly rounding the inside corners of the square.
2. When nailing a piece of hard casing close to the 45 miter so it won't split. Take a 4 penny finish nail and tap the head lightly with a hammer against a hard surface. I know to some of you this must sound ridiculous, but it actually works.
3. Typical candle wax is normally to hard to stick to screws and nails.By mixing the same portion of a wax plumbing ring together.This will soften the wax and normally be enough for about a year.
4. With a half inch bit, drill a hold in the end of a 13 oz. trim hammer handle about two inches in for wax.
I noticed Norm of the New Yankee Workshop a few month's ago showing some techniques for mortising out hinges for a door. .After he outlined where the hinge was then he took a 1 1/2 inch chisel placing it at a 90 degree angle to the face, then tapping it down lightly the thickness of the hinge every 1/4 inch in that area. also I noticed that he did not use a gage to set the amount of depth in the area he was chiselling out.
A technique that we used many years ago for this was laying the chisel on approximately a 45 degree angle and using your finger as a gage along side the chisel to control the depth to be mortise out .
Another technique that we used to hollowground chisels to razor sharp was to use a belt sander and place the chisel on the back portion of the belt sander on the round wheel using an old fine sanding disc.
Just taught maybe you all would find these a little interesting, not trying to change the subject"layout".
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/11/2002 3:57:57 PM ET by Larry
I have used that, and it's a well made, handy gizmo. Wonderful on volutes...
That's such a great tool, guys try to borrow it from me.
It gives a length measurement too.Excellence is its own reward!
I've never used this tool, was only wondering how others like it. I'm sure Dan would be glad to hear these great comments.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Tip for marking rail bolts,
First using a #2 pencil place the point approximately 5/8 up from the bottom of the rail on the end, now using your finger as a gauge make a short line across the end surface. Next without moving your finger on the pencil keeping it as a gauge make a light line into the center from both outside profile. At this point one surface end of the rail should be mark for approximate center. Second without moving your finger now mark the other piece of rail.
The reason for only coming up 5/8 from the bottom is because this will allow you to tighten the nut with a typical 9/16 box wrench.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/11/2002 8:00:36 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 8:02:16 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 8:02:54 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 8:07:07 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 8:12:54 PM ET by Larry
Something else you all might find interesting,
1.On a typical rail system going up the stair normally there will be over 150 layout mark's.
2. For rail bolts there are 15 different operations, with a approximately connecting time of 15 minutes for the typical carpenter.
3. On a typical railing going up the stair a carpenter will uses a level over 35 times
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
To management,
No person in rail work should ever be but in the position of supervision of another person if their only focus is on perfection. It is not possible to keep both eyes on your work and another eye on a helper or apprentice. This is why the young person who I was hired to train had virtually no carpentry ability's or skill's after working with another person on the job for two years with no supervision
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/11/2002 8:46:09 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/11/2002 8:52:04 PM ET by Larry
Larry: I always measure up 1 inch for my railbolts. This gets the tension of the bolt nearer the vertical centerline of the rail making it stronger. All you need is a two dollar rail bolt wrench..and you can easily tighten the nut. ....or just grind down a box wrench making it have a narrow neck. 5/8 from the bottom of the rail is too close. Just giving my honest opinion...nothing personal...ok?
'Larry: I always measure up 1 inch for my railbolts. This gets the tension of the bolt nearer the vertical centerline of the rail making it stronger. All you need is a two dollar rail bolt wrench..and you can easily tighten the nut. ....or just grind down a box wrench making it have a narrow neck. 5/8 from the bottom of the rail is too close. Just giving my honest opinion...nothing personal...ok?"
Please keep in mine we are using a rail bolt not clits here, also I used the word approximately.
Stan I have no problem if we disagree, it makes for healthy discussion.
with respect
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Larry: Just think about it...the closer that bolt is to the center of the rail...the more strength it will have towards the top half of the joint. I just mentioned that because you said you measured 5/8 because that is the height you could tighten the nut. I was making aware to some of the readers that you can place the bolt deeper and still tighten it.
Keep in mine we are talking about a rail bolt here, just the strength in that method alone there's no more need to worry.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Just curious. Do you have a reason for using that annoying font? Other then to try and dominate the conversation. It's like the salesman who posistions his chair slightly higher then the buyers chair so he can intimidate the buyer by looking down at him. It makes you look goofier then the last time you were here. Orlo.
Stan's right. The centered bolt is making a stronger joint. That makes for a safer joint and safer rail installation. With all your emphsis on safety, there's no reason for you to disagree since you'll now be changing to centering the rail bolt. Right?Excellence is its own reward!
Larry: All you have yo do is test two handrail joints without glue. Place one with the bolt 5/8 inch from the bottom..and the other with it one inch. Place the joint of the corner of a bench and press on the opposite fittings. You will clearly see that the one inch is much harder to make a gap appear at the top of the joint. It is just basic physics..... Leverage....
Stan's right, Piffin's right, never heard of drilling rail bolt 5/8 up. I always go 1".
Wow, it must have been what I said about management and supervision. First, let me clear something up,earlier the tip was for typical 6010 rail. The rail Stan is shown a picture of is much much larger, however the same technique can apply by using the side's to set the pencil. then comes up from the bottom.
I also used the word approximately, meaning finding the center of the middle before the technique was applied to the bottom. I know this is not the way it was written earlier however it can be changed
Other than Gunner if there was any point's that wasn't addressed, I'm sure you all will mine me.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/11/2002 11:31:38 PM ET by Larry
You can't be serious.
You can go to about 15/16", but cut a block to scribe offa. How do you get your centers when all the fittings are different? Hmm? You seem to like things simple, you should get this one.
Larry: Here is a quick an easy way to drill railbolts and also apply dowels across the joint. I made this jig from scraps of like rail.
Stan,
Nice jig.
Larry,
You have amused the hell out of me again. I know of know other person, with exception to my wife ( on a full moon ) who can take a simple topic ( not to say the task is simple ) of ballister layout and turn it into some sort of babling pissing into the wind, pat yourself on the back speach.
Just so I know I have the facts straight I've listed so far what I've noticed:
A) You work alone with the possability of a helper when the need arises. Or when you find someone with rino skin on there back.
B) Your speciality is handrail install, no stairs, just handrails.
C) Limited amount of tools needed (required) for the task at hand. You wouldn't have left that door hangers bench behind otherwise.
D) Travel into four different states a week to install handrails.
E) Knowledgable about what you do? Sure
Inventor? Damn straight
F) But guess what Larry, you're a railing sub in tract housing, no travel time you probally do four or five homes a day. Right? I know a 30 old young guy who can do the same, and believe it or not, safely.
You seem to have this hard on for management ( I can see why they fired your #### ). I don't believe any of us are here to try and prove who we are are but only to try and improve on what we're trying to be. I'll take twenty different ideas on how to do something, adapt them to my own needs, and you know what? I've got a different way of doing the same thing but only it's tailerd to me, my crew and my situation.
Larry, quite trying to prove to everybody your somebody, that comes with time, even on the wide world web, but until then either lurk, chime in your wisdom when helpfull or........... just lurk.
Sean Millar
Sean Millar Carpentry
http://www.trimcarpenter.net
Larry now for the REAL bit of trivia: what does Orlo mean? Is it:
A) all-knowing-one
B) Our Railing's Lose O'gain (shouldn't have used hose senco guns.....Darn)
C) thats what I think my name if I forget to take my pills
D) All of the above
I have given up long ago trying to understand you so I just get the biggest laugh when this all starts up. I hope you post here forever.
Edited 9/12/2002 2:00:02 AM ET by PAULPARADIS
Boy, sure hope some of you guys feel better. Just for the record I've never been fired off of any job for the lack of quality in my work. The key two words there was never and quality, not saying I've never been fired.
Being accused on this forum of looking down on some one is a joke, all anyone needs to do is follow some of your conversation and the truth is in the writing.
About the trivia question that no one here seams not to be able to answer, wonder why?
If I'm getting under some of you boy's skin, make no mistake its intended, just for the record.
The single key word here in all of this is boy.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Boy o boy, larry rails us again, of course he's an expert there, well, except for that little ol rail bolt slip up...how 'bout some more tips, bro?
You're bring lots of smiles to my face.
tip,
Nobody really wants to play a silly trivia game here. It looks like yuou are playing with your self.
I applaud you for keeping that antagonistic vein in check, old boy.Excellence is its own reward!
"Nobody really wants to play a silly trivia game here. It looks like yuou are playing with your self."That's no fun rather be doing the real thing.
I use the trivia to help leave into subject matter that in my opinion needs to be addressed.
One of the biggest things I've notice both here and elsewhere that really concerned me, is someone introducing a product or tools without any instruction. For example anyone could by using a patent number follow the paper work back to written instructions.
Something that was driven into my head very early on was safety and tools. Let me give you one example, carpenter's would not even allow younger helper to be around if they were doing technical work. The reasons was because they never wanted a young person to get the impression of being able to do something that their skill level was not up to.
Anyway hope this is not boring anyone.
P.S "I applaud you for keeping that antagonistic vein in check, old boy." Really like this old boy comment
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/12/2002 4:25:35 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/12/2002 4:28:26 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/12/2002 4:34:44 PM ET by Larry
After the discussion last night I decided today to check a the measurement up from the bottom after my technique is used on 6010 rail, it measures 3/4"
Anyone if they wanted to make it higher,could easily set the pencil point to that death before marking.
The key in this technique is wants you've decided your setting before ever moving your finger again mark both end's
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/12/2002 4:45:54 PM ET by Larry
I completly agree with Larry and from this point on will research all patents on all power tools to be used by me or my employees. I will then follow the paper trail to find the instructions on how to bring an electric motor up to full speed before using it.
Wait a second....
... Hhhmm......... can't be ....... ........ As I just followed the paper trail for the Senco clip gun I am stunned that I did not find any referance to handrail installation, but even worse there is absolutely nothing on bringing the motor to full speed before using it. What am I missing Larry?
Edited 9/12/2002 5:40:04 PM ET by PAULPARADIS
Edited 9/12/2002 5:42:33 PM ET by PAULPARADIS
It depends on the crime, IMHO
As lond as due process is observed...Excellence is its own reward!
What a great safety tip!
"... Hhhmm......... can't be ....... ........ As I just followed the paper trail for the Senco clip gun I am stunned that I did not find any referance to handrail installation, but even worse there is absolutely nothing on bringing the motor to full speed before using it. What am I missing Larry?" A Rep. from Senco to give you a field demonstration.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/12/2002 7:30:12 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/12/2002 7:30:53 PM ET by Larry
At this point in the discussion I would like to introduce a trivia question as well as a usefull safety tip for management as well as the craftsman........now suppose your customer becomes extremely aggrieved at your work or material and comes at you with their index finger and their second finger spread appart like a V or the victory sign in a horizontal position, and procede towards your eyes, what would you do?
Edited 9/12/2002 7:39:49 PM ET by ALLENSCHELL
Happened to me once. The dude went home with a broken finger.Excellence is its own reward!
Not bad Piffin but thats not the correct answer.......we'll see what the evening brings.....
nyuck... nyuck.... nyuckMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike your soo warm!
"Andy is always looking for authors who know their stuff. E-mail him directly."
Andy and myself are not the best of friends, this is because of what happen back in the winter, I'm sure he has not forgotten. I believe my last email went something like this "UP YOURS" probably wasn't very professional but at the time it seems like the right thing to do. Oh well #### happen.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/12/2002 8:14:54 PM ET by Larry
This thread is turning into a cluster cluck
That's kind of the way your last e-mail to me wentExcellence is its own reward!
At the time it seams like the right thing to do, oh well #### happen's.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/12/2002 9:12:24 PM ET by Larry
No hard feelin's - just gotta go catch up to my better man. He's callin'Excellence is its own reward!
I have no hard feeling about it either, it's all water over the dam.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
will u guys please explain to helen what i'm laughing aobut now ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hi!Mike,
Just wanted to say hello and maybe ask you to do me a favor. Sometime I take people the wrong way without realizing it until its to late,if you see that happening in this discussion please point it out to me.
glad your here
Thanks
with respect
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/13/2002 5:33:41 AM ET by Larry
It's probably Shemp, just yank Larry around in front of ya, nyuk nyuk...."It's okay, I can fix it!"
Allen, now some trivia for you:
If two fingers are to the left, two to the right and pointed upward what do you do?
OK now same senario, but he has a 6" luftkin folding rule and a drill with the motor not rotating at full speed, what do you do?
Live long and prosper
I had to do the mind meld to figure that one out.
Our Railing's Lose O'gain
LMAO best one yet.
Yes, I used one, one time. Improve the slop and it would be a great tool.
BB, I get your point and I certainly am a jig fan but spending that kind of money for a jig and slowing down the drilling of rails, well I'm not quite convinced yet. Now that L.J. Smith gizmo you guys are talking about......I'd buy that in a heartbeat!
Anybody got an online supplier for those?
Allen, I've used that jig and it doesn't slow ya down, other than the 400 bucks...if all I did was rails it'd be worth it, but no, I love making my own stuff, even if it takes me two weeks...and for an online source for the baluster jig, try LARRY.COM, he's our inside track...I can't believe how out of it you are;)
or maybe you could check out LJSmith...but, dang, Larry's got an in with the inventor...
If you want to but L J Smith parts they will give you one.
actually, Larry, I wrote to tell you to quit running your mouth so much, to give out meaningful information, and to get off your high horse, and kick s h i t with the rest of us...I don't think you know what spam means, every post you make solicites email, whether you like it or not...and I'd never ask you to leave, you're part of the comedy act...
J. H. Eshelman
the Village Woodworks, Inc.
unreal carpentry
Billy,
I'm willing to call for a truths between us if you are? Two old hard headed carpenter's knocking head's will not help anyone.So I guess what I'm trying to say , does anyone have a white flag???
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/10/2002 5:10:21 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/10/2002 5:11:39 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/10/2002 5:12:44 AM ET by Larry
All,
For anyone who had taken the time to read my post and others. Knowing sometime I come across very strong please believe there is a reason. I'm trying very hard to get inside the head's of people in management/ supervision who are reading this thread. That's why recently if you've noticed I've tried to single out some of my comments in that area. Invite of how some of you feel about me, I do have a very strong background in this area that can all be verify.
Let me also say something else about the level of knowledge I've received reading both this forum and others is unbelievable. Its actually caused me to do a 1/80 on something that I would have wore was right and within a very short period of time it was pointed out through a discussion how wrong I was about my position.
Another reason I'm using this particular area for posting is because it's serving as a journal for my book, there could not be a better place for that. I cannot begin to count the things this forum make me think about and want to address.
Hopefully this did not come across arrogant etc.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/10/2002 5:39:04 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/10/2002 5:40:37 AM ET by Larry
Edited 9/10/2002 6:12:25 AM ET by Larry
For management uses only -Bench For Hanging Doors
I've noticed that there always seems to be a lot of talk about the demand in the home building industry for new doors and hanging them on another carpentry forum. So I thought this might be a good time to described a special work bench that some of you might want to have your people make. It might help you cut down on the cost of purchasing unnecessary tools, laser levels etc.
This bench is a copy of a older carpenter who started doing carpentry in the 30s, that I was an apprentice under in the early 70's. This was before pre hung doors became so popular and from what I understood, he also copied it.
The bench was 72x13 inches and 40 inches high. The upper part was a 1x4 frame and cross pieces every 12 inches with a 1/4 piece of interior plywood for the top surface.The one end of the bench had a u piece that came out beyond the rest of the frame.This was for holding the top portion of the door. It also was glued and screwed together.
The legs were 1x12 that fasten inside the frame and came down at a 5 degree angle at both ends. The end where the u is, this legs was fasten slightly back from the end so the u would align with the next part. At the bottom of each leg there was 18 inch 2x4 fora foot, that had the centers remove so the bench would be more stable. On each foot there was a 1 3/4 slot to hold door on at each end.The legs were supported by 1x4 braces running back to the center of the 1x4 top frame.
On top of both feet there was several 2xs that slid back and forth with stops, cut to the exact width for 3/0 2/8 2/6 2/0 with slots in one end the thickness of a door.These 2x sliding pieces were in a 1/4 plywood cover attached to each legs.This would bring the door to approximately two inches above the top of the work bench.
Accessories
In the top of the bench there were several holes cut for tools and trays.. One of the trays would have wax for screws and nails. Also along the back of the frame there was nails to hang tools etc.on and a electoral box with six outlets. It also makes an ideal miter saw stand.It actually was fairly light and portable. Today if I was making one there would be a slot recessed in the top for a miter saw with folding legs.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/10/2002 3:21:27 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/10/2002 3:25:26 PM ET by Larry
Trivia
During the early sixty's I believe the Kennedy administration the white house was remodeled. Can anyone name one of the master carpenter's who did the stair and cabinet work? This can be verify through public documentation.
Clue: I've seen one of their names mentioned on this forum.
This is one trivia question I will not be answering.
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/10/2002 3:58:37 PM ET by Larry
Why is that for management only, Larry. Lot's of guys here would like to build one themselves for self-employed work. It might even help if you posted the picture again.Excellence is its own reward!
"Why is that for management only, Larry. Lot's of guys here would like to build one themselves for self-employed work. It might even help if you posted the picture again."
Anyone here is more than welcome to build one for themselves. Actually I do not remember what happen to mine, it was possibly left on the job site. Have I have not seem it sense 1976. A lot of these kind's of benches were the property of the builder. This was because they were one's that not only applied the material, but also the time to build it, management.
The reason it was addressed to management was because I'm trying to make a few points to some people in the industry other than one's working with their tools. For example from what I understand you run your own business, meaning if you have employees your in management, supervision and trademen.
Let me finish by saying, everything I've read about what you are doing this bench would be perfect for you
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Edited 9/10/2002 4:27:56 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/10/2002 4:34:15 PM ET by Larry
Edited 9/10/2002 4:35:02 PM ET by Larry
maybe
The Mark's Of A Good Carpenter -Tip of The Month - think safety
Larry Martin
Try something original. This is the same way you started your aproach the very first time you came here. On the same day you promised to be nice, you start the same thing all over from the beggining. Deja Vu?
Thanks P, maybe with the project I've got coming up next week I'll make a new thread reviewing my experience with it as I run it through it's paces.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
I have just finished something that might help if you own a Palm handheld. I call it Baluster Layout and its free ware at PalmGear.com. It does everything you will need to layout balusters. I used to use the programable calculator method as well but found it to hard to remember what all the buttons did. I wrote this program so you would not need to remember anything. It ask for information and it returns the Centers, Spacings, number of balusters, and it also adds all the balusters up as you go.
I have plans in the works to update the program to find newel post lengths and baluster layout going up the rake on knee wall applications.
http://www.palmgear.com/software/showsoftware.cfm?sid=92052120011224154306&prodID=43500
Gary W.
Gary, I beat you to the punch here already. After discovering your little application
over in the JLC Forums last night I came over here and posted all your information.
Check out messages
#22825.221. I spent the day traveling around to several job venues and also
showed it around to the people I talked to there and everyone seems to like
it as much as I do. Congratulations. Good job. Keep thinking.
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
Jerrald,
I saw your post right after I posted. I guess its better late than never.
Thanks for posting all the information like the screen shot, I didn't know it could be done. I am used to JLC.
Gary W.
Everyone has their pet way of laying out balusters...they all end up spacing the balusters evenly. What way suits you is the method to use. This is my pet way of doing it.
Example....just laid out a section of railing between two 3.5 inch newel posts. The center to center measure was 101 and 5/8 inches....or 101.625 inches. I treat the newels as just another baluster..keeping the centerline of them to the centerline of the adjacent baluster the same as between all balusters. This is pleasing to the eye as you don't have that wide gap near the top of the turnings like I see happens when the bases are spaced with the same gap. Of course there are limits to this when the newel is larger than 3.5 inches...but that situation is dealt with by eye.
Anyway..my 101.625 inches was divided into 22 equal divisions of 4.619318 inches. I just simply store the 4.619318 dimension. I then punch in 0 and subtract 1/2 the newel thickness....and come up with a -1.75 inches. I then just add the stored 4.619318 inch measure and that gives me the centerline of the first baluster from the edge of the newel..or 2.869 inches. Then each centerline of the next baluster is found by repeatedly adding this stored 4.619318 measure...giving 7.488 for the next baluster...112.108 for the next...etc...etc.
The decimal portions are multiplied by 16 to figure the fractions. Example...the first layout is 2.869 inches from the newel. Multiply .869 x 16....this is 13.9 sixteenths..or for all practical purposes...7/8 of an inch. I round off to the nearest 32nd and that is more accurate than I need.
When I get to the last layout..it will be exactly the same distance from the last newel. If it isn't..then this is a redundancy check.
Edited 9/22/2002 9:19:39 AM ET by Stan Foster
i'm with you stan, the simple calculator that costs 5 bucks is by far the simplest and most accurate method for baluster layout ,rafter lenghths,squaring a foundation, figuring material, sales tax, gas mileage, how much a square foot, and and many more.
I always have a T.I.30 in my pouch at all times.
Don't forget balancing the checkbook, figuring the tip, and adding up your hours..
Excellence is its own reward!
can also do it with the Java _aps on my Nextel phoneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
the computer layouts are interesting but someday no one will be able to think for themselves. stan has it right and if you learn to understand it---it's easy & quick--
For what it's worth, I entered this form over a year an half ago in good faith. Since that time not only my reputation but integrity has been destroyed by false accusations that have led to not only threatening of my family but also myself. These false accusations have been orchestrated by two different screen name's that are in this discussion Gunner and Piffin. Both of these two are not only liar's but also coward's at heart. As a veteran who served my country I've been spit on by both of them not only in defending false accusations, but down right being accuse that I've threaten to murderer someone. Anyone is certainly entitled to their own opinions, these two have not only disgraced themselves but everyone around them.
Larry Martin
[email protected]
[email protected]
From: Gunner Feb-26 7:54 pm
To: Qtrmeg (222 of 232)
27633.222 in reply to 27633.204 I see what your saying Qtrmeg. He hasn't implied murdering a fellow poster or their child in a week. We'll let him start over. Here Larry, it's your rope run with it. Do what you do.
N
W < O > E
S Bobcat
Now let's see if I've got this right, you've never spend one day in the military and don't have any children your willing to sacrifice , but want others to fight because your afraid.
Edited 3/3/2003 6:38:48 PM ET by Bobcat
IMERC has a question about a stair rail invention he has.
be this is a test and
be amazing that it is still in the Construction folder instead of the archives.
Edited 7/15/2006 10:12 am ET by rez
You need a hobby. LOL
Ohhh tipi tipi tipi. Tipi tipi fest, Yes we're gonna party with the very best. Come over to the tipi. Give Andy all your dough. Cause you gotta to pay. If you want to go. Sing along Y'all.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Edited 7/15/2006 10:28 am ET by Gunner
a-a-a-a-a-a-tipi we will goa tipi we will gohi ho a brewski oha tipi we will go.
be it's another teepeepee sunriseAndy angsted 'cause not cool, in the poolActing just like hired handsFloatin' yellow dreams y'all drank it drySum'r days go by.
LOL Good one.
Ohhh tipi tipi tipi. Tipi tipi fest, Yes we're gonna party with the very best. Come over to the tipi. Give Andy all your dough. Cause you gotta to pay. If you want to go. Sing along Y'all.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
that was cold....
but since you were the only one in the history of mankind, not that you were kind here and also the part about man not applying to you speciffically, bought one.....ask the question yourself and not by proxy...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
He bought one of those? And a Bammer? View Image View Image
Man that guy just aint right.
Ohhh tipi tipi tipi. Tipi tipi fest, Yes we're gonna party with the very best. Come over to the tipi. Give Andy all your dough. Cause you gotta to pay. If you want to go. Sing along Y'all.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
he emailed and said he was trying to fix up his stairs with both of tools at the same time and was having technical difficulties...
the coffee still hasn't stopped dribbelling outta my nose....
but I did get the keyboard and monitor cleaned up....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Technical difficulties is an understatement. I won't be surprised if they don't morph together into an autohammer and bash him in the head.
Ohhh tipi tipi tipi. Tipi tipi fest, Yes we're gonna party with the very best. Come over to the tipi. Give Andy all your dough. Cause you gotta to pay. If you want to go. Sing along Y'all.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
Is that a magnetic north he has going on there?
be heh heh The mods missed one.
Peace out.
Snork. I think there's a few sleepers out there.
"Woke up quick, at about noon. Just knew that I had to be in Compton soon."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChIdFwQwoYM&feature=related